Bristol Beaufighter

[jcf]

Vickers S

The Rolls-Royce BH box magazine mounted at the very rear of
the gun.

The Hurricane II Manual (RAF Museum Series), has drawings in the back
of the two different installations which make the layout differences between
the cannon fairly clear. In both cases the functional bits would be well back
in the belly of the Beau.

[apophenia]

The Rolls-Royce BH box magazine mounted at the very rear of the gun.

Interesting Jon.

A photo purporting to be of the QF 2-pounder Mark XIV (the Rolls-Royce gun adapted for use on Fairmile MGBs) shows a magazine position very similar to the Vickers 'S'.  Attached is that Coastal Forces gun image (skewed to the horizontal).

Apparently the Rolls-Royce gun (and cradle) weighed 336 lbs/152 kg. Like the Vickers, it was a long-recoil weapon. Recoil distance was 17.5 inches/445 mm. BTW, it sounds like the Rolls-Royce gun was a bit of a dog ... probably better to stick with the Vickers 'S'.

[finsrin]

Read a paperback some decades ago about night fighting in Beaufighter.  Title was maybe "Night Fighter".
Radar equipped night fighter was an all new deal.  They were doing first time stuff with the radar equipment and the flying technique.  Pioneering the "night fighter".
Tweaking equipment, measures & countermeasures, and tactics all the while.  Is recommended reading.

[kitnut617]

Read a paperback some decades ago about night fighting in Beaufighter.  Title was maybe "Night Fighter".
Radar equipped night fighter was an all new deal.  They were doing first time stuff with the radar equipment and the flying technique.  Pioneering the "night fighter".
Tweaking equipment, measures & countermeasures, and tactics all the while.  Is recommended reading.

Yes got that one in my library, as you say it's a good read. It was about John Cunningham (who went on to be a test pilot) and his wireless operator (what they called them back then) Rawlnsey (or something like that).

[The Big Gimper]

Read a paperback some decades ago about night fighting in Beaufighter.  Title was maybe "Night Fighter".
Radar equipped night fighter was an all new deal.  They were doing first time stuff with the radar equipment and the flying technique.  Pioneering the "night fighter".
Tweaking equipment, measures & countermeasures, and tactics all the while.  Is recommended reading.

Yes got that one in my library, as you say it's a good read. It was about John Cunningham (who went on to be a test pilot) and his wireless operator (what they called them back then) Rawlnsey (or something like that).

Another good Beaufighter read is :: Silently into the Midst of Things: 177 SQN RAF in Burma. Author: Atholl Sutherland Brown was born in Ottawa in 1923, lived in London, England, as a child but much of the rest of his life in Victoria, BC, Canada. He was a pilot in Burma with 177 Squadron RAF in 1944-45 and awarded the DFC in 1945. After the World War he became a geologist, and eventually Chief Geologist of the British Columbia Geological Survey.

[jcf]

Vickers S in Beaufighter belly.

Hurricane II drawings showing the two cannons, note that magazine of the Vickers is forward of the rear spar,
while the hopper magazine of the R-R B-H is aft of the rear spar. The protruding hopper was cover by fairing.
the gun itself was left exposed.

[GTX_Admin]

Hi Jon,

What's the source of the first photo?

[jcf]

SAM Modeller's Datafile 6, Bristol Beaufighter

[Volkodav]

The Vickers S used the 40x158R 2pdr Pom Pom case not the 40x304R 2pdr AT round I had assumed, so how about an automatic version of of the 2pdr AT gun (i.e. a smaller Molins) or an up-scaled Vickers S using the larger round as an alternative to the S or Molins on the Beaufighter.  Smaller and lighter than the 57mm with a higher rate of fire as well as higher velocity, greater penetration and hitting power than the S it could conceivably have armed the Beaufighter.

[GTX_Admin]

Two interesting videos:


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F03325/


https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/F04758/

[Rickshaw]

The Vickers S used the 40x158R 2pdr Pom Pom case not the 40x304R 2pdr AT round I had assumed, so how about an automatic version of of the 2pdr AT gun (i.e. a smaller Molins) or an up-scaled Vickers S using the larger round as an alternative to the S or Molins on the Beaufighter.  Smaller and lighter than the 57mm with a higher rate of fire as well as higher velocity, greater penetration and hitting power than the S it could conceivably have armed the Beaufighter.

Unfortunately, with the larger round you would get a heavier recoil.  The aircraft structures were at their limits with the Vickers S gun AIUI, therefore you'd need to beef the structure up.  Added to that would be the need to carry fewer, heavier rounds which would be used up quicker.   The Vickers S armed aircraft were like most such beasts a compromise.  The reason why they were effective was because of the added velocity of the aircraft, not because the gun necessarily had a high velocity in itself.   

[Volkodav]

The Vickers S used the 40x158R 2pdr Pom Pom case not the 40x304R 2pdr AT round I had assumed, so how about an automatic version of of the 2pdr AT gun (i.e. a smaller Molins) or an up-scaled Vickers S using the larger round as an alternative to the S or Molins on the Beaufighter.  Smaller and lighter than the 57mm with a higher rate of fire as well as higher velocity, greater penetration and hitting power than the S it could conceivably have armed the Beaufighter.

Unfortunately, with the larger round you would get a heavier recoil.  The aircraft structures were at their limits with the Vickers S gun AIUI, therefore you'd need to beef the structure up.  Added to that would be the need to carry fewer, heavier rounds which would be used up quicker.   The Vickers S armed aircraft were like most such beasts a compromise.  The reason why they were effective was because of the added velocity of the aircraft, not because the gun necessarily had a high velocity in itself.

Hence my reference to the Molins gun, a larger heavier weapon, with greater recoil, intended to replace the Vickers S.  It is conceivable that if the mosquito can be fitted with a single molins and a Beaufighter with a pair of Vickers S then either could be fitted with an automatic 2Pdr and a 20mm.

[jcf]

The Beaufighter with the two 40mm; one Vickers, one R-R, was actually more a testbed for the weapons
than a test of an anti-tank Beau.

The Molins company could probably have developed an auto-loader for the 2Pdr along the lines of the one
they built for the 6Pdr, but as the RAF were already looking at larger calibres it's questionable whether
anyone saw a need.
The 47mm P gun project got started in 1942:
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/Pgun.htm

[Volkodav]

More speculation than anything else.  Could even have been an Australian development due to the existence of 2Pdr production and a requirement for a heavy weapon for attack aircraft.

[GTX_Admin]

One could have seen the need/development of heavy gun armed variants if the development of rocket projectiles such as the RP-3 ran into some sort of development or production problem.

[Volkodav]

An automatic 2pdr fitted to a torpedo bomber would make life interesting for AA gunners on ships, it wouldn't just make them keep their heads down, it would be punching through the majority of gun shields.

[Volkodav]

Beaufighter twin float torpedo / strike fighter for Pacific Islands campaign.  Inspired by the photoshopped four engine Beech on the Beech twins thread.

[elmayerle]

Beaufighter twin float torpedo / strike fighter for Pacific Islands campaign.  Inspired by the photoshopped four engine Beech on the Beech twins thread.

With the float struts designed to pick up the trunnions for the main landing gear so as to simplify any strengthening required by transmitting landing loads through already robust structure.

[Volkodav]

Exactly.

[kitnut617]

Beaufighter twin float torpedo / strike fighter for Pacific Islands campaign.

I took that idea a step further  ----   

[Volkodav]

Was actually looking at those pics today in an old Floaty GB inspiration thread, nice work.

[M.A.D]

Sorry Greg, somewhere, some how, I missed this! 
I personally have always loved the notion of a carrier-based Beaufighter! It would have been such a high performance and hard hitting surprise to German, Italian and Japanese ships and ground targets!
Is there any chance that you could have a go at introducing a Grumman-type (Wildcat/Hellcat/Avenger arrangement) folding arrangement for the wings, or a two-fold wing arrangement? As the existing arrangement you've done would give rise to issues of below-deck storage and maintenance. 

M.A.D

[kitnut617]

Was actually looking at those pics today in an old Floaty GB inspiration thread, nice work.

Thanks!

Beaufighter with floats is possible using the floats from the XC-47C conversion, they both have almost identical max' take-off weights

[Daryl J.]

Folding wing Naval Beaufighter.  Nice one Greg!

[Volkodav]

Would look great in 1/700, ranged on the deck of an Ark Royal derived "unarmoured" Fleet Carrier in the Pacific early 1942.  This is exactly what I am planning with my Aoshima Ark Royal.