What If the British Army bought the M113?

[Weaver]

Okay, I really have 97 things I should be doing before modelling at the moment, BUT sorting the house out has got stalled for various boring reasons, and I'm going mad with frustration waiting for my purpose-built modelling room, so this evening I've snapped, got the portable kit out on the dining table, and started on a simple little idea I had a few weeks ago.

What If the British Army bought the M113?

Seems a perfectly reasonable idea to me: nobody else bought the FV432 and just about everybody else bought the M113, some countries after having evaluated it against the FV432 and found the latter wanting. So what if the British Army did the same thing in the name of NATO standardisation etc...? Of course, that standardisation wouldn't have lasted past the first round of "we need our own special versions for our own special needs...." but then every other M113 user did that to a greater or lesser extent anyway.

I have a vague Britain-in-Vietnam background going on too, so interoperability there might be another driving factor, and some of the lessons-learned might well end up being much the same as the Australians, so my intention is to seriously deplete my stash by building FOUR models, all from Airfix/JB 1/76th bases:

Section vehicle with a Saracen turret and a circular rear hatch
Fire-support vehicle with a Scorpion turret (the background is that this turret was designed for the M113... )
Recce vehicle with Scimitar turret
ATGW vehicle with Swingfire

Started cutting and glueing on the turreted ones: photos when there's something worth snapping....

[GTX_Admin]

Love those ideas.  What about an AirDefence variant with Rapier?

Maybe also a version for Northern Ireland?

[Weaver]

We had Tracked Rapier on an M578 load carrier chassis: somewhat akin to Chapparal, but with an armoured cab. Rapier is a bit bulky for a standard M113. Tracked Rapier turned out to be a maintenance nightmare and was withdrawn from service.

If we used M113s then the current Starstreak system that's used on a Stormer chassis would probably fit right on. You might imagine ealier UK MANPADS like Javelin and Blowpipe used before that, but they'd probably be deployed on foot by a team who just rode in a standard M113 APC (it was Spartans in real life). Alternatively, a vehcile like a an M113 mortar carrier with  a big roof hatch could be used with the LML mounts, which have three Javelin or Starstreak on a manually operated pedestal. The last, least likely but most sexy option would be to devise a completely new remote launcher for Blowpipe or Javelin using some of the hardware from the SLAM submarine-launched SAM system. This would be a telescopic pedestal with a TV aiming unit and up to six missles around it.

The tendency was to keep tracks off the streets of Belfast and use Humber Pigs and Saracens instead. Partly this was practical: the wheeled vehicles were better at urban stuff. Partly it was PR: wheels are less intimidating than tracks and the media are apt to scream "government puts tanks on the streets!!!" even if the vehicle in question is just an APC with 1 x MG. Partly it was to avoid dignifying the IRA campaign by making it look like "fighting a war" instead of "policing crime". Gaining the status of "soldiers" and "prisoners of war" was always a very big deal to the IRA and the British government was always careful to avoid it.

[philp]

Looking forward to your Bucket builds.

I have a soft spot for the M-113 series myself.

[raafif]

Well I like the Tracked Rapier very much so in whiffdom Rapier does work ok

Several countries have whiffed the M-113 .....
Egypt & India were the first to make an extended chassis version with extra armour.
Philipines track ....


Libya converted several into SPGs with Russian 122mm D-30M guns in an open superstructure !

[Claymore]

Looking forward to your builds. In full agreement ref NI and also Tracked Rapier (had it been built on a Bradley or Warrior hull things might have been different). A M113 HVM launcher might be cool.  :)

[Weaver]

Cheers Folks.

It wasn't that the Rapier missile system in Tracked Rapier was a problem, it was more the vehicle: I heard somewhere that you had to lift the entire armoured cab off the chassis just to service the engine...

[Volkodav]

Something like the cut back apc developed for the Australian M113 upgrade could have been done quite easily instead as a tracked rapier platform.  A reduced hullhieght version for fire support, reconnaissance, ATGW,tank destroyer etc.

[Weaver]

Balls! Wanted to start painting today but I can't.

I "knew" I could do British Army cammo because I did a AAC Harrier a while back, but when I've looked into it, that was the later black and NATO green scheme (Humbrol Tank Grey and Light Olive) whereas for the early 1960s just-in-service timeframe I want for the M113s, they'd be black and bronze green - Humbrol 75. Which I havn't got. And it's Easter Sunday, so all the shops are shut. Grrrrrrr.........

[Weaver]

A post over on What If has just made me realise something: mine needs a barrel lock, and I can't nick the one off the Scorpion 'cos it's moulded on - hmmmm.

Progress pics. I left off the RADIAC mast supplied with the Scorpion because apparently it was hardly ever fitted:




The ex-JB M113 FSV uses a wide disc on the bottom of the turret, but the Airfix Scorpion uses a small pin, so some adaption was neccessary. Luckily, three sizes of concentric Evergreen tube fitted all the relevent holes and pegs:

Widest tube sits under the top plate supporting the middle tube which sits in the hole, reducing it's diameter:



Narrowest tube sits around the turret pin and voila:

[GTX_Admin]

How about a simple conversion with the Milan Turret from the FV103 Spartan?

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good!!

[deathjester]

Very nice!!  Really looks like a full kit, rather than a Whiff.

BTW, you have no idea how tough that was to write - my fingers seem to have developed what I call 'dyslexic stutter'...Don't ask...

Can't you make a barrel lock out of plastic card?  It would be around the right thickness, wouldn't it?

[Weaver]

How about a simple conversion with the Milan Turret from the FV103 Spartan?

Good idea in general, but wrong period for mine: I want to do these as if they've just entered service in the mid 1960s when the British Army was on Vigilant and Swingfire. Milan didn't come along until later.

I'm still debating how to do a Swingfire vehicle, partly because I'm still debating how to do the section vehicle....


Section Vehicle Options:

1. Use a standard M113 hull and just fit a Saracen turret in place of the commander's hatch.

2. Use an FSV hull, cut the entire FSV top plate out and fit a new one with an AIFV-style layout, that is, commander's hatch behind the driver, turret to the commander's right and a circular hatch (spare driver's hatch) at centre-rear with a 3/4 skate ring around it.


Swingfire Vehicle Options:

1. Ferret Mk.5 style: scratchbuild a 1-man turret with 1 x MG and 4 x elevating Swingfire boxes (Using this turret on the Scorpion hull was the original scheme for the Striker). External reloading.

2. Striker style: elevating box of 5 x Swingfires on top of, or recessed into, the roof at the rear. External reloading.

3. FV438 style: raised superstructure with telescopic firing sight and 2 x independently elevating single Swingfire boxes. Under-armour reloading.

4. Original idea #A: if the section vehicle layout is standard M113, then fit 2 x single Swingfire boxes in the back ends of the sponsons. They'd elevate to fire, the blast would go out of the back, and they'd muzzle-reload from under armour in the lowered position. Fuel tanks would have to be relocated though, and they couldn't go in the customary external positions to either side of the ramp.

5. Original idea #B: if the section vehicle is AIFV style, delete the turret in favour of an MG on the commander's hatch, then fit 1 x twin Swingfire box (vertically stacked) inside the main hull line at the right rear. It elevates to fire (well away from the cupola, which is on the left) and reloads under armour like #A. The rear ramp is replaced by a fixed panel with exhaust ports to the right and the original side-hinged door to the right.

[Weaver]

Very nice!!  Really looks like a full kit, rather than a Whiff.

Can't you make a barrel lock out of plastic card?  It would be around the right thickness, wouldn't it?

Thanks!

The barrel lock on the Aussie MRV was a bit more complicated than that since it had to reach up a long way. All sorts of way of making it though.

[Weaver]

RARDEN turret done:

[Weaver]

Okay, update:

Scorpion and Scimitar turreted jobs in paint, but might need some tweaking yet.

Section vehicle still in thought.

Swingfire vehicle : decisions have been made and plastic cut.... :blink:

I'm going for an FV438-style vehicle. It'll be based on an FSV hull with the top plate replaced: there's no point using an ACAV hull because I'm moving the commander's position and the standard roof hatch is too small and too far forward for what I want. The commander's cupola will be behind the driver on the left. Behind that will be a full-width superstructure that's best described in two halves:

The left hand half will have the Swingfire gunner and the periscope sight seen on the FV438. It's back end will be level with the FSV's top panel, i.e. a bit forward of the extreme rear of the vehicle.

The right hand half will have two independently elevating Swingfire launchers in it's back face, the back end of the launchers protuding past the FSV's top panel and being level with the back of the vehicle. On the FV438, these boxes have a peculiar "hump" in them not seen on any other Swingfire vehicle. It took me ages to figure out what this was but I finally sussed it. Because the FV438 "turret" had to fit on the exisiting circular roof hatch, there wasn't room to elevate a reload missile tube a "flat" position and slide it straight back into the launcher. Instead, it had to be pushed up at 45 deg then rotated once more than half it's length was inside the launcher, hence the "hump" to allow the end of the tube to temporarily go beyond the height of the launcher proper.

I don't need to do this on mine, because I'm replacing the whole roof, not working through an existing hatch. However, if I make the "penthouse" long enough to raise a reload in the flat position then it's too long and forces me to put the commander alongside the gunner and risks guidance wires getting tangled in his cupola (something the RA seemed to have been concerned about, judging by the number of wire-control rails and devices on the FV438). My solution is to have the launcher in the reload position drop just below the horizontal, so that it's muzzle is just below the original roof line and it can be reloaded by a semi-automatic system at about 20 deg that sits alongside the commander.

Pics later.

[Weaver]

More progress:



I'm going to have one launcher raised and one dropped for reloading. The launchers now have muzzle reinforcements, pivot tubes and exhaust door hinges. The "down" one has it's door glued shut, but I've left the "up" one off because I won't know what angle to glue it at until the thing's assembled.

I've cut the bottom out of the "down" launcher bay so that it can depress for reloading. Have to 'fess up here: I got the geometry of the launcher supports wrong (they should have been shorter) and had to extend the cutout a bit further aft than the limit of the FSV top plate. Won't be visible when it's finished though.

The lockers are almost finished: the round bits you can see there are hinges: once they're dry I just need to put the doors on and detail them.

[Buzzbomb]

Whizzing these out nicely.

The Swingfire version is very sweet

[Weaver]

Cheers!

Lockers now have doors.

"Down" launcher cutout is now boxed in.

Wondering how to do the "angle iron" reinforcements on the outer launcher supports (lots of options though).

Going to have to cut off the right front aerial mount and it's hidious solid guard rail because it's too far forward: if the Swingfire did a sharp right out of the launcher it could wrap it's guidance wires around the aerial, which might have a certain comedy value, but only from about half a mile away....

[Rickshaw]

Looking good.

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good.

Ditto!

[Weaver]

More progress:

In this shot, you can see the front of the Swingfire vehicle and the two turreted vehicles. I undercoated the latter two, but then realised there were big score marks in the sides of the roof where I'd taken the aerial protector bars off, and I'd also forgotten to build barrel locks! Both now corrected. The white things in the foreground are the lockers for the back of the Swingfire vehicle, now detailed up with hinges and catches.




Here's the back of the Swingfire vehicle now that the roof's on. I'm leaving the launchers removable until after I've painted their undersides and the inside of their bays.

[GTX_Admin]

Coming along nicely.

[Buzzbomb]

very nice


In a coat of paint you will not know that that Swingfire is not the real deal

[M.A.D]

Well I like the Tracked Rapier very much so in whiffdom Rapier does work ok

Several countries have whiffed the M-113 .....
Egypt & India were the first to make an extended chassis version with extra armour.
Philipines track ....


Libya converted several into SPGs with Russian 122mm D-30M guns in an open superstructure !

India?
Does India use Gavin's?

M.A.D

[AGRA]

India?
Does India use Gavin's?

M.A.D

No one, anywhere has ever used "Gavins".

But AFAIK India has never used M113s. The A4 extra road wheel mod was only built in the US, Germany and Australia.

[Weaver]

I thought Egypt had 6-wheelers with Bradley turrets?

[AGRA]

I thought Egypt had 6-wheelers with Bradley turrets?

Yes you are right (my bad). This is the FMC A4 mod (Australia chose the German A4 mod).

[Weaver]

No one, anywhere has ever used "Gavins".

One of these days I'm going to make a diorama of a blown-to-kingdom-come M113 with just enough hull left to see that it's nickname was "Sparky's Magic Piano"....

[Rickshaw]

No one, anywhere has ever used "Gavins".

One of these days I'm going to make a diorama of a blown-to-kingdom-come M113 with just enough hull left to see that it's nickname was "Sparky's Magic Piano"....

He has his devotees and his campaign is slowly spreading.  It's interesting the number of times I've come across someone on the internet who calls them "Gavins" out of ignorance and Sparky's machinations.   

[deathjester]

Erm...Eh???  What's that all about then?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Erm...Eh???  What's that all about then?

Search at your own risk and you shall see many things under the search term "M113 Gavin" but please do not ever use that term again in polite company or in this thread. :)

[GTX_Admin]

Yes, everyone knows that the name has never been "Gavin"...it was always "Frank"...

[Weaver]

Erm...Eh???  What's that all about then?

A gentleman called Mike Sparks runs a huge, rambling website full of huge rambling ideas about how to reform the US Army, called Combatreform. He's a strong detractor of the Stryker and a strong promoter of the M113, seeming to belive the latter can do everything from darn your socks to fly you to the moon. He has launched a campaign to get the M113 christened the "Gavin" after Gen. J.M.Gavin, however this is most definitely NOT an official name for the vehicle and commands no significant support amongst serving military or veterans: it has only gained some traction on the internet because it's scarily easy to end up on his site when doing searches on military matters. Mr. Sparks is also notably aggressive and intolerent in his dealings with people who disagree with him on the internet (including serving military and veterans), to the extent that he has managed to get  himself banned from numerous websites and made himself hugely unpopular.

[deathjester]

Thanks Weaver, that's ALL I wanted to know about it - what to avoid, and why!!

Erm...Eh???  What's that all about then?

Search at your own risk and you shall see many things under the search term "M113 Gavin" but please do not ever use that term again in polite company or in this thread. :)

I think you'll find that I didn't actually mention it - I simply enquired as to what the problem was.  Now that I know, I won't be bothering to look into it further.

[apophenia]

... The A4 extra road wheel mod was only built in the US, Germany and Australia.

There are Canadian-made M113A4 conversions too (from UD kits) ... we just don't call them 'A4s.

In Canadian Forces terminology, the M113A3 upgrade became a TLAV (Tracked Light Armoured Vehicle). The stretched, 6-wheelers were the MTVL (Mobile Tracked Vehicle, Light) with a range of specialty role variants -- open-backed cargo MTVC and fitter MTVF, and 'full-bodied' engineering MTVE and recovery MTVR.

[M.A.D]

Erm...Eh???  What's that all about then?

Search at your own risk and you shall see many things under the search term "M113 Gavin" but please do not ever use that term again in polite company or in this thread. :)

Ha ha...........
But for someone like myself who has spent too many years hot and cramped riding around and debussing from the M113, I'll call it anything I like 

M.A.D

[Weaver]

Minor progress. The gunner's position now has vision blocks , periscopes a base for the missile guidance periscope, and the missile bays have little V-shaped fittings in front of them as per the FV438. Not sure what those are to be honest: I did think they might be wire cutters to sheer off the control wires as the launcher retracted but a close examination shows that they can't do that. My vision block/periscope setup is based on the FV438 but has to be different because my missile "turret" is bigger and different internally.

[Weaver]

Well, I'm calling the Swingfire conversion done now, or at least as done as it can be before painting. This weekend I've done the wire catcher and the periscope cage in brass wire. It's overscale and not strictly accurate to the FV438, but it looks okay. There were at least two different designs of wire catcher used on the FV438 anyway, and some of them seem to have got pretty knocked about in service.



I'm pleased with the periscope's rubber "gaiter". I made this by putting a piece of Evergreen rod in my Dremel, turning it to a cone, then carving the corrugations with a file. It's drilled down the centre for another length of brass rod to keep it all strong.



Just realised it needs a new ventillator to replace the standard M113 one....  Easy enough to fix.

All I need to do now, once the rest of the vehicle's assembled, is paint the insides of the missile troughs, cut down the missile box pivot pin and seal it in place with little discs at each end, and then stick the "up" box's open exhaust cover on. 

[father ennis]

That's looking fantastic !!! 

[Gingie]

the corrugated dust cover looks excellent. Gotta love the 'poor man's dremel lathe'!!

[Brian da Basher]

Wow that looks a treat! I especially like the railings and the cool periscope!

Brian da Basher

[Rickshaw]

You do realise this will now appear on the Combat Reform website as further proof of the versatility of the super-uber-M113 compared to the "wheeled death traps"? 

[Old Wombat]

You do realise this will now appear on the Combat Reform website as further proof of the versatility of the super-uber-M113 compared to the "wheeled death traps"? 

[Capt Mainwaring voice/] You silly, silly boy![/Capt Mainwaring voice]

 

Guy

[Weaver]

You do realise this will now appear on the Combat Reform website as further proof of the versatility of the super-uber-M113 compared to the "wheeled death traps"? 

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I'm still awfully tempted by the idea of doing a blown-to-bits-by-an-IED one with the nickname "Sparky's Magic Bucket" just still visible on the side............

[Rickshaw]

"Sparky's Death Trap" would be more appropriate...

I wonder how many though, would get the reference to Sparky? 

[Weaver]

Okay, first photo update in a while, but also last one for a bit because I'm going to have to put this one on hold while I do something for the Coulda Woulda Shoulda GB.



I originally painted the two turreted vehicles with Humbrol Bronze Green, but I thought it was too dark (scale colour and all that). However I then noticed that Revell Bronze Green was a bit lighter so that's now the standard base colour. I also used a Revell "not quite black" colour for the cammo on the FSV, but it came out patchily glossy. Not sure if that's down to the paint itself or the heat making it dry fast, but unfortunately, it's almost exactly the wrong way around: FV-432s had a glossy bronze green finish from the factory and then got random patches of very matt black applied by the units. What I might do is give them a coat of satin varnish then overpaint the black with a thinned version of itself and see how that works.

The Section Vehicle is finally staying together: I've glued it together twice in the last week, only to have it fall apart again...   Not sure what the problem was: it's been very hot here which might have affected the glue, but on the other hand, it was Revell Contacta from the new plastic bottles that failed and the stuff that worked was from an older glass bottle, so I wonder if the glue is reacting with the bottle in some way?

The turret is the "big option" from an Airfix/JB Saracen and it's on a collar to raise it up, but it still looks lost... I replaced the Browning MG barrel with it's perforated jacket with a more modern GPMG one, made from two bits of brass wire on a revised mounting.

[Brian da Basher]

They sure look the business, Weaver!

Brian da Basher

[Dr. YoKai]

 And how! Took the time to go back over the thread as a whole, and I have to admire the expansive
 concept on display. ( And everything looks better with a Scorpion/Scimitar turret parked on top. )

[Weaver]

Cheers folks!

Couldn't agree more Doc..... more to come eventually on that score, but for a different background story. I've got a 1/72nd ACE Scorpion and several 1/72nd Warriors, so there's an easy turret job to be done there. Something else I've been thinking about is a 1/76th scale "British LVTP-5" using Churchill suspension, a scratchbuilt hull and a Scorpion turret....

[uncle les]

I'm a bit late to this party but chiming in anyhow to say Bravo.  I'm in an M113/FV432/general bucket binge atm and this is inspirational !  :)