What If the British Army bought the M113?

[Weaver]

Okay, I really have 97 things I should be doing before modelling at the moment, BUT sorting the house out has got stalled for various boring reasons, and I'm going mad with frustration waiting for my purpose-built modelling room, so this evening I've snapped, got the portable kit out on the dining table, and started on a simple little idea I had a few weeks ago.

What If the British Army bought the M113?

Seems a perfectly reasonable idea to me: nobody else bought the FV432 and just about everybody else bought the M113, some countries after having evaluated it against the FV432 and found the latter wanting. So what if the British Army did the same thing in the name of NATO standardisation etc...? Of course, that standardisation wouldn't have lasted past the first round of "we need our own special versions for our own special needs...." but then every other M113 user did that to a greater or lesser extent anyway.

I have a vague Britain-in-Vietnam background going on too, so interoperability there might be another driving factor, and some of the lessons-learned might well end up being much the same as the Australians, so my intention is to seriously deplete my stash by building FOUR models, all from Airfix/JB 1/76th bases:

Section vehicle with a Saracen turret and a circular rear hatch
Fire-support vehicle with a Scorpion turret (the background is that this turret was designed for the M113... )
Recce vehicle with Scimitar turret
ATGW vehicle with Swingfire

Started cutting and glueing on the turreted ones: photos when there's something worth snapping....

[GTX_Admin]

Love those ideas.  What about an AirDefence variant with Rapier?

Maybe also a version for Northern Ireland?

[Weaver]

We had Tracked Rapier on an M578 load carrier chassis: somewhat akin to Chapparal, but with an armoured cab. Rapier is a bit bulky for a standard M113. Tracked Rapier turned out to be a maintenance nightmare and was withdrawn from service.

If we used M113s then the current Starstreak system that's used on a Stormer chassis would probably fit right on. You might imagine ealier UK MANPADS like Javelin and Blowpipe used before that, but they'd probably be deployed on foot by a team who just rode in a standard M113 APC (it was Spartans in real life). Alternatively, a vehcile like a an M113 mortar carrier with  a big roof hatch could be used with the LML mounts, which have three Javelin or Starstreak on a manually operated pedestal. The last, least likely but most sexy option would be to devise a completely new remote launcher for Blowpipe or Javelin using some of the hardware from the SLAM submarine-launched SAM system. This would be a telescopic pedestal with a TV aiming unit and up to six missles around it.

The tendency was to keep tracks off the streets of Belfast and use Humber Pigs and Saracens instead. Partly this was practical: the wheeled vehicles were better at urban stuff. Partly it was PR: wheels are less intimidating than tracks and the media are apt to scream "government puts tanks on the streets!!!" even if the vehicle in question is just an APC with 1 x MG. Partly it was to avoid dignifying the IRA campaign by making it look like "fighting a war" instead of "policing crime". Gaining the status of "soldiers" and "prisoners of war" was always a very big deal to the IRA and the British government was always careful to avoid it.

[philp]

Looking forward to your Bucket builds.

I have a soft spot for the M-113 series myself.

[raafif]

Well I like the Tracked Rapier very much so in whiffdom Rapier does work ok

Several countries have whiffed the M-113 .....
Egypt & India were the first to make an extended chassis version with extra armour.
Philipines track ....


Libya converted several into SPGs with Russian 122mm D-30M guns in an open superstructure !

[Claymore]

Looking forward to your builds. In full agreement ref NI and also Tracked Rapier (had it been built on a Bradley or Warrior hull things might have been different). A M113 HVM launcher might be cool.  :)

[Weaver]

Cheers Folks.

It wasn't that the Rapier missile system in Tracked Rapier was a problem, it was more the vehicle: I heard somewhere that you had to lift the entire armoured cab off the chassis just to service the engine...

[Volkodav]

Something like the cut back apc developed for the Australian M113 upgrade could have been done quite easily instead as a tracked rapier platform.  A reduced hullhieght version for fire support, reconnaissance, ATGW,tank destroyer etc.

[Weaver]

Balls! Wanted to start painting today but I can't.

I "knew" I could do British Army cammo because I did a AAC Harrier a while back, but when I've looked into it, that was the later black and NATO green scheme (Humbrol Tank Grey and Light Olive) whereas for the early 1960s just-in-service timeframe I want for the M113s, they'd be black and bronze green - Humbrol 75. Which I havn't got. And it's Easter Sunday, so all the shops are shut. Grrrrrrr.........

[Weaver]

A post over on What If has just made me realise something: mine needs a barrel lock, and I can't nick the one off the Scorpion 'cos it's moulded on - hmmmm.

Progress pics. I left off the RADIAC mast supplied with the Scorpion because apparently it was hardly ever fitted:




The ex-JB M113 FSV uses a wide disc on the bottom of the turret, but the Airfix Scorpion uses a small pin, so some adaption was neccessary. Luckily, three sizes of concentric Evergreen tube fitted all the relevent holes and pegs:

Widest tube sits under the top plate supporting the middle tube which sits in the hole, reducing it's diameter:



Narrowest tube sits around the turret pin and voila:

[GTX_Admin]

How about a simple conversion with the Milan Turret from the FV103 Spartan?

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good!!

[deathjester]

Very nice!!  Really looks like a full kit, rather than a Whiff.

BTW, you have no idea how tough that was to write - my fingers seem to have developed what I call 'dyslexic stutter'...Don't ask...

Can't you make a barrel lock out of plastic card?  It would be around the right thickness, wouldn't it?

[Weaver]

How about a simple conversion with the Milan Turret from the FV103 Spartan?

Good idea in general, but wrong period for mine: I want to do these as if they've just entered service in the mid 1960s when the British Army was on Vigilant and Swingfire. Milan didn't come along until later.

I'm still debating how to do a Swingfire vehicle, partly because I'm still debating how to do the section vehicle....


Section Vehicle Options:

1. Use a standard M113 hull and just fit a Saracen turret in place of the commander's hatch.

2. Use an FSV hull, cut the entire FSV top plate out and fit a new one with an AIFV-style layout, that is, commander's hatch behind the driver, turret to the commander's right and a circular hatch (spare driver's hatch) at centre-rear with a 3/4 skate ring around it.


Swingfire Vehicle Options:

1. Ferret Mk.5 style: scratchbuild a 1-man turret with 1 x MG and 4 x elevating Swingfire boxes (Using this turret on the Scorpion hull was the original scheme for the Striker). External reloading.

2. Striker style: elevating box of 5 x Swingfires on top of, or recessed into, the roof at the rear. External reloading.

3. FV438 style: raised superstructure with telescopic firing sight and 2 x independently elevating single Swingfire boxes. Under-armour reloading.

4. Original idea #A: if the section vehicle layout is standard M113, then fit 2 x single Swingfire boxes in the back ends of the sponsons. They'd elevate to fire, the blast would go out of the back, and they'd muzzle-reload from under armour in the lowered position. Fuel tanks would have to be relocated though, and they couldn't go in the customary external positions to either side of the ramp.

5. Original idea #B: if the section vehicle is AIFV style, delete the turret in favour of an MG on the commander's hatch, then fit 1 x twin Swingfire box (vertically stacked) inside the main hull line at the right rear. It elevates to fire (well away from the cupola, which is on the left) and reloads under armour like #A. The rear ramp is replaced by a fixed panel with exhaust ports to the right and the original side-hinged door to the right.

[Weaver]

Very nice!!  Really looks like a full kit, rather than a Whiff.

Can't you make a barrel lock out of plastic card?  It would be around the right thickness, wouldn't it?

Thanks!

The barrel lock on the Aussie MRV was a bit more complicated than that since it had to reach up a long way. All sorts of way of making it though.

[Weaver]

RARDEN turret done:

[Weaver]

Okay, update:

Scorpion and Scimitar turreted jobs in paint, but might need some tweaking yet.

Section vehicle still in thought.

Swingfire vehicle : decisions have been made and plastic cut.... :blink:

I'm going for an FV438-style vehicle. It'll be based on an FSV hull with the top plate replaced: there's no point using an ACAV hull because I'm moving the commander's position and the standard roof hatch is too small and too far forward for what I want. The commander's cupola will be behind the driver on the left. Behind that will be a full-width superstructure that's best described in two halves:

The left hand half will have the Swingfire gunner and the periscope sight seen on the FV438. It's back end will be level with the FSV's top panel, i.e. a bit forward of the extreme rear of the vehicle.

The right hand half will have two independently elevating Swingfire launchers in it's back face, the back end of the launchers protuding past the FSV's top panel and being level with the back of the vehicle. On the FV438, these boxes have a peculiar "hump" in them not seen on any other Swingfire vehicle. It took me ages to figure out what this was but I finally sussed it. Because the FV438 "turret" had to fit on the exisiting circular roof hatch, there wasn't room to elevate a reload missile tube a "flat" position and slide it straight back into the launcher. Instead, it had to be pushed up at 45 deg then rotated once more than half it's length was inside the launcher, hence the "hump" to allow the end of the tube to temporarily go beyond the height of the launcher proper.

I don't need to do this on mine, because I'm replacing the whole roof, not working through an existing hatch. However, if I make the "penthouse" long enough to raise a reload in the flat position then it's too long and forces me to put the commander alongside the gunner and risks guidance wires getting tangled in his cupola (something the RA seemed to have been concerned about, judging by the number of wire-control rails and devices on the FV438). My solution is to have the launcher in the reload position drop just below the horizontal, so that it's muzzle is just below the original roof line and it can be reloaded by a semi-automatic system at about 20 deg that sits alongside the commander.

Pics later.

[Weaver]

More progress:



I'm going to have one launcher raised and one dropped for reloading. The launchers now have muzzle reinforcements, pivot tubes and exhaust door hinges. The "down" one has it's door glued shut, but I've left the "up" one off because I won't know what angle to glue it at until the thing's assembled.

I've cut the bottom out of the "down" launcher bay so that it can depress for reloading. Have to 'fess up here: I got the geometry of the launcher supports wrong (they should have been shorter) and had to extend the cutout a bit further aft than the limit of the FSV top plate. Won't be visible when it's finished though.

The lockers are almost finished: the round bits you can see there are hinges: once they're dry I just need to put the doors on and detail them.

[Buzzbomb]

Whizzing these out nicely.

The Swingfire version is very sweet

[Weaver]

Cheers!

Lockers now have doors.

"Down" launcher cutout is now boxed in.

Wondering how to do the "angle iron" reinforcements on the outer launcher supports (lots of options though).

Going to have to cut off the right front aerial mount and it's hidious solid guard rail because it's too far forward: if the Swingfire did a sharp right out of the launcher it could wrap it's guidance wires around the aerial, which might have a certain comedy value, but only from about half a mile away....

[Rickshaw]

Looking good.

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good.

Ditto!

[Weaver]

More progress:

In this shot, you can see the front of the Swingfire vehicle and the two turreted vehicles. I undercoated the latter two, but then realised there were big score marks in the sides of the roof where I'd taken the aerial protector bars off, and I'd also forgotten to build barrel locks! Both now corrected. The white things in the foreground are the lockers for the back of the Swingfire vehicle, now detailed up with hinges and catches.




Here's the back of the Swingfire vehicle now that the roof's on. I'm leaving the launchers removable until after I've painted their undersides and the inside of their bays.

[GTX_Admin]

Coming along nicely.

[Buzzbomb]

very nice


In a coat of paint you will not know that that Swingfire is not the real deal