Author Topic: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family (and Scorpion turret users) - Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 35517 times)

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Ideas and Inspiration thread for anything to do with the British CVR (T) series of light armoured vehicles.

Real world vehicles are/were:

Scorpion light tank with 76mm gun
Scorpion 90 : Scorpion with 90mm Cockerill gun
Scimitar light tank with 30mm RARDEN cannon
Scimitar Mk.2 : Scimitar turret on Spartan chassis for enhanced mine protection in Afghanistan
Sabre light tank with 30mm RARDEN cannon (Scorpion hull with Fox armoured car turret)
Jordanian Scorpion : Scorpion refit with 30mm 2A72 cannon + 4 x ATGW (not sure if this is in production or prototype only)

Spartan APC : 3 crew plus 4 dismounts
Samson ARV : Spartan hull with winch and spades
Spartan Milan : Spartan hull with twin Milan turret
Striker ATGW vehicle : Spartan hull with 5-round Swingfire box plus reloads
Sultan command vehicle : Spartan with higher roof, radios map boards and a tent
Samaritan ambulance : Sultan hull with ambulance gear

Stormer APC : Spartan with extra road wheel and 8 x dismounts
Stormer load carrier : Stormer with flat-bed back.
Shielder : Stormer flat bed with Shielder automatic mine-laying system
Stormer HVM : Stormer with 8 x Starstreak SAMs
Stormer 30 : lowered hull with OTO-Melara Hitfist turret mounting 30mm Bushmaster cannon + 2 x TOW (prototype only)


Current or former users: Belgium, Botswana, Brunei, Chile, Honduras, Iran, Indonesia, Ireland, Jordan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Nigeria, Oman, Philippines, Spain, Tanzania, Thailand, Togo, UAE.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 05:25:54 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2013, 11:34:14 PM »
Jordanian Scorpion:



Stormer 30:



Scimitar Mk.2 (Scimitar turret on Spartan chassis):



Spartan MCT with Milan turret:

« Last Edit: March 19, 2013, 12:03:15 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 12:23:45 AM »
So, whiff ideas....

US Scorpion : what if the US armed forces had bought the CVR(T) series?

Light tanks : it's hard to see the US Army going for either the 76mm or the RARDEN, though the USMC might see the value in the 76mm (light fire-support). The probable US option, assuming a 1970s/early 1980s buy,  would be a 25mm Bushmaster I think. US requirements might also have lead to an early introduction of a stretched Stormer-style hull and that might have carried a Delco turret with a 25mm and 2 x TOW.

APC and derivatives : the US always seems to prefer 12.7mm over 7.62mm for APC weapons, so US version of the Spartan et al would probably have low-profile cupolas with manual .50 cal Brownings instead of the tall British Mk.16 cupola with it's remote GPMG.

ATGW : this is an interesting one: would the US have fitted TOWs on the 25mm Scorpion, or an infantry-style launcher in a roof hatch on the Spartan? It's hard to see how you could get a hammerhead unit onto a Spartan, given that it was capable of over-balancing an M113 given half a chance.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 12:43:56 AM »
More Whiff ideas.....

The Scorpion turret seems to have been quite adaptable to other hulls: the Canadians used them on a MOWAG Piranha chassis as the Cougar and the Australians put them on M113s as a recce/fire-support vehicle (MRV). So what else could have been done?

Aussie equivalent of the Berlin Brigade FV432s, with a Scimitar turret on an M113 hull.

British equivalent of the MRV with a Scorpion turret on the FV432.

British fire-support vehicle with a Scorpion turret on an Warrior hull (76mm or 90mm).

M113 with the Striker's Swingfire system, i.e. a 5-round box on the rear hull with reloads inside.

Scimitar turret on a Saladin hull (i.e. a Fox that doesn't fall over on cross-slopes...)

Scorpion/Scimitar turrets on French hulls such as the Panhard AML and ERC series.

Canadian recce vehicle with Scimitar turret.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 08:37:52 PM »
In the early-mid-1980s there were strong rumours that the Australian Army was about to buy MRVs with Scimitar turrets.  It always seemed a logical progression from the Scorpion turreted FSV.  However, nothing seemed to come of it.  Instead they purchased ASLAVs instead (but only after the direct intervention of the then Minister of Defence Kim "Bomber" Beazely. )

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2013, 11:12:57 AM »
The Canadian Forces had ongoing problems with cracks forming in those Alvis aluminium turrets. Was that an issue for British or Australian users?
Auferstanden aus Ruinen; Glück für Menschen und Maschinen ...

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2013, 08:45:41 PM »
Don't know about the UK and Aus ones, but I did read somewhere that Malaysia had trouble with turret cracking on their Scorpion 90s.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2013, 12:02:56 PM »
Jordanian Scorpion : Scorpion refit with 30mm 2A72 cannon + 4 x ATGW (not sure if this is in production or prototype only)

Hum...... I wonder if the same can be done on any what-if export Scimitar......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2013, 04:17:58 PM »
Don't know about the UK and Aus ones, but I did read somewhere that Malaysia had trouble with turret cracking on their Scorpion 90s.

Never heard of any problems with the Australian ones.  Were the Canadian ones imported or locally manufactured?   The Australian ones were imported IIRC.  Might have been the sort of vehicle they were mounted on and how they were used...

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2013, 04:56:23 PM »
So, whiff ideas....

US Scorpion : what if the US armed forces had bought the CVR(T) series?

Light tanks : it's hard to see the US Army going for either the 76mm or the RARDEN, though the USMC might see the value in the 76mm (light fire-support). The probable US option, assuming a 1970s/early 1980s buy,  would be a 25mm Bushmaster I think. US requirements might also have lead to an early introduction of a stretched Stormer-style hull and that might have carried a Delco turret with a 25mm and 2 x TOW.

APC and derivatives : the US always seems to prefer 12.7mm over 7.62mm for APC weapons, so US version of the Spartan et al would probably have low-profile cupolas with manual .50 cal Brownings instead of the tall British Mk.16 cupola with it's remote GPMG.

ATGW : this is an interesting one: would the US have fitted TOWs on the 25mm Scorpion, or an infantry-style launcher in a roof hatch on the Spartan? It's hard to see how you could get a hammerhead unit onto a Spartan, given that it was capable of over-balancing an M113 given half a chance.

US Army Scimitars in a recon role. :-*
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2013, 08:56:43 PM »
Easy, Australian RAAC 2nd Cavalry Regiment with the entire FOV Scimitar, Scorpion and Spartan in the Sabre Troops with Sultan and Striker at SHQ and RHQ, Samaritan at RAP and Sampson for the combat spanners.  A Sabre Troop would have a scout section with two Scimitar, a fire support section with two Scorpion and a vegie section with Spartan.  The purchase going ahead in the late 70s to free up M-113s for the Mechanisation of most of the RAR. 8)

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 03:32:05 AM »
Something from Greater Australia:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2013, 03:10:16 PM »
Easy, Australian RAAC 2nd Cavalry Regiment with the entire FOV Scimitar, Scorpion and Spartan in the Sabre Troops with Sultan and Striker at SHQ and RHQ, Samaritan at RAP and Sampson for the combat spanners.  A Sabre Troop would have a scout section with two Scimitar, a fire support section with two Scorpion and a vegie section with Spartan.  The purchase going ahead in the late 70s to free up M-113s for the Mechanisation of most of the RAR. 8)

The Australian Army purchased over 800 M113s and most of those were available to it in it's war stocks.  More than enough mechanise the entire Army.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Easy-ish 1/35th whiff:

Trumpeter do an AVGP Cougar and a Canadian LAV-25 in 1/35th scale. Since the former is based on a 6x6 MOWAG Piranha and the latter on an 8x8 Piranha, it should be relatively easy to do a turret-swap, i.e. put the Cougar's Scorpion turret on the 8x8 chassis. You could then claim that Canada did this for real in order to retain the 76mm fire-support capability on a common chassis as the 6x6s were phased out.

This would fool a lot a casual observers since it looks and feels "right". You could even back it up with the real-life tidbit that somebody (Uraguay?) bought a load of 2nd hand Cougars without the turrets: "so what happened to the turrets then huh? HUH?"

You also get a perfectly usable 6x6 Piranha hull with a largish turret ring and a spare LV-25 turret, both of which are eminently usable in other whiffs, so there's not much waste.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2013, 07:42:35 PM »
True there were a stack in war stocks and also in reserve units but that sort of ruins a good back story with facts.  I believe there were actually many more than 800 in total as there were a significant number of written off US Army vehicles we repatriated from Vietnam.  Many of those were the original petrol / gasoline powered vehicles, upgraded with the 6V53 and can be identified by the bolted panel around the fuel filler cap on the top left of the hull, we had a couple of these in my old unit.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Just a thought, a NEMO 120mm mortar turret on a Scorpion, to replace the 76mm gun, or on a Spartan as a fire support vehicle upgrade.

A surviellance varient with a mast mounted multi sensor head.

A SPAAG with a single 35mm to support the Stormer HMV, maybe a radar equiped Stormer as well.

An M777 armed SPG or Portee Stormer

A L118 Light Gun armed SPG or Portee Spartan

A Delco turreted CVR(T)

A 35 or 40mm armed CVR(T)

A 60mm HVMS gun armed CVR(T)

A 76mm Oto Melara armed CVR(T) (similar to the one in the Rooikat)

From memory the original 76mm in the Scorpion was retired as the gasses / residue from the guns propellant was found the be toxic / carcinogenic and dangerous to the crews.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2013, 09:03:27 PM »
True there were a stack in war stocks and also in reserve units but that sort of ruins a good back story with facts.  I believe there were actually many more than 800 in total as there were a significant number of written off US Army vehicles we repatriated from Vietnam.  Many of those were the original petrol / gasoline powered vehicles, upgraded with the 6V53 and can be identified by the bolted panel around the fuel filler cap on the top left of the hull, we had a couple of these in my old unit.

Interesting but doubtful.  Why would they be repatriated to Australia when they were US military property?   Our initial purchase were of the petrol engined version but all were converted very quickly to the a1 with the diesel as I understand it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
From memory the original 76mm in the Scorpion was retired as the gasses / residue from the guns propellant was found the be toxic / carcinogenic and dangerous to the crews.

As far as the UK is concerned, the reason why they were retired was because of the Convention Forces in Europe Treaty which ended the Cold War.   Under the treaty, anything with a gun greater than 75mm in calibre was counted as a tank.  If the choice was between an MBT and a CVR(T), you can guess which won...

Downunder they were retired because of a lack of ammunition, it being imported from the UK which had ceased to make it.

The gas story was a convenient excuse.  It could have been handled in several ways.  Addition of a  fume extractor/an extractor fan or an increase in the NBC system's overpressure.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Scorpion (CVR(T)) family - Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2013, 09:28:54 PM »
True there were a stack in war stocks and also in reserve units but that sort of ruins a good back story with facts.  I believe there were actually many more than 800 in total as there were a significant number of written off US Army vehicles we repatriated from Vietnam.  Many of those were the original petrol / gasoline powered vehicles, upgraded with the 6V53 and can be identified by the bolted panel around the fuel filler cap on the top left of the hull, we had a couple of these in my old unit.

Interesting but doubtful.  Why would they be repatriated to Australia when they were US military property?   Our initial purchase were of the petrol engined version but all were converted very quickly to the a1 with the diesel as I understand it.
They were written off as total losses, RAEME recovered and repaired them.  We had one vehicle in my old unit that had aledgedly run over a mine killing the driver after blowing off the track front two road wheels and sprocket, it was still running in the late 90's and for all I know may have been upgraded since.

Offline Gingie

  • The LAV sausage-maker…goes nice with a home made beer I understand
  • Has been to Tatooine...
Glad to see this thread bumped. I've been thinking of a Canadian tracked recce vehicle, Scimitar but with LAV-25 turret, Diehl or Soucy tracks, and a mast. Alternatively, a Warrior IFV shortened hull, again with a LAV 25 turret (there was at least one of these mocked up, I think by BAE, I'll look for the pic), or as we'd discussed in the LAV-25 thread, the upper half of an AVGP, shortened and grafted to a M-113 lower hull. Though the latter one is getting close to the Lynx C&R, albeit with a front mounted engine.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Glad to see this thread bumped. I've been thinking of a Canadian tracked recce vehicle, Scimitar but with LAV-25 turret, Diehl or Soucy tracks, and a mast. Alternatively, a Warrior IFV shortened hull, again with a LAV 25 turret (there was at least one of these mocked up, I think by BAE, I'll look for the pic), or as we'd discussed in the LAV-25 thread, the upper half of an AVGP, shortened and grafted to a M-113 lower hull. Though the latter one is getting close to the Lynx C&R, albeit with a front mounted engine.


The Stormer recce vehicle would probably be ideal for that. Although it's nowadays called the Stormer 30 and has an OTO-Melara Hitfist turret, I think I'm right in saying that when it first came out, it had a Delco turret.

There's a British company called Repaircraft who do all sorts of mods for the Scorpion including diesel engines and improved track: it's repaircraft that keep the Scorpion the holder of the tank world speed record: http://www.scorpiontank.co.uk/html/ContentsPage.html (They also supply 76mm ammo, so it IS still available).

Model-wise, you could get what you want by doing my proposed turret swap but between an AFV Club Scorpion and a Trumpeter LAV-25.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Another possible Scorpion turret user...

MOWAG produced a long line of APC/MICV prototypes called the Pirate/Taifun/Tornado, none of which ever entered production. The mid-1970s version of these had a mid-mounted engine with the troop compartment behind it and the driver/commander/gunner in front of it. All the pictures I can find show it with a one-man 20mm turret in bewtween the driver and commander, but I've read that an alternative scheme had it armed with a Scorpion turret instead.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
All the pictures I can find show it with a one-man 20mm turret in bewtween the driver and commander,



Not sure about the Scorpion turret but I have also seen these variations:





All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Found the original reference now: Jane's AFVs 1976 edition (I love old reference books...)

It's a proposed Italian variant based on the MOWAG Taifun called the OTO-Melara O-F 24 Tifone. It had basically the same layout as the Taifun, but with a 2-man turret to the right of the driver, and it came in three flavours:

Mk.1 fitted with a Scorpion turret with limited traverse... ???

Mk.2 fitted with a Fiat 6616M armoured car turret with a 20mm Rh.202 cannon (I don't see why this quite bulky turret could manage 360 deg rotation while the Scorpion one couldn't)

MK.2 fitted with a turret with twin Rh.202 with 85 deg elevation.

All versions retained the twin remote 7.62mm MGs seen on the Taifuns rear corners.

Unfortunately, there are still no photos: even the photo for the article is that of the Taifun which I've already posted.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
  • Prefers Guns And Tanks Over Swords And Magic
Mk.1 fitted with a Scorpion turret with limited traverse... ???

Are we talking about a Italian BMP-1 or just another light tank?

From the look of Taifun the rearward field of fire is probably very limited to begin with......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?