Author Topic: F-35 Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 131054 times)

Offline Paul Wagner

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2012, 11:23:05 AM »
Alternatively, both the Aussies and the Canadians, our Commonwealth partners, and not least the US Forces, use F-18 variants, so would it be better for us to maintain commonality with our 'main allies'?

Nope, you should get the best plane regardless of compatibility. Who knows what the world will look like in 20 years? Who your (useful) allies will be? Interoperability might be a consideration, but not a determining factor....

...so for us I'd go for the Typhoon over more Hornets. It's just reaching full development in regards to strike capability, BAe has done a lot of work on a possible carrier variant (again, for when/if the F35 gets cancelled) with increased range and tougher landing gear (good for us), and given Europe's financial woes, we could negotiate a really good price....

BTW, history shows us anything can get cancelled - another financial crash could send the US into a deep depression, or a change in Government (Ron Paul for President?!?!), or really bad publicity (like an F35 falling out of the sky)... anything can happen...!

Paul
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:50:06 AM by Paul Wagner »

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2012, 12:04:02 PM »

...so for us I'd go for the Typhoon over more Hornets. It's just reaching full development in regards to strike capability, BAe has done a lot of work on a possible carrier variant (again, for when/if the F35 gets cancelled) with increased range and tougher landing gear (good for us), and given Europe's financial woes, we could negotiate a really good price....


But The Hornet does already have strike capability, carrier capability, and I would hazard a guess and say stronger airframe and landing gear to land on ships in the first place. Not trying to nitpick just pointing out that all the stuff the typhoon might get "someday" the Hornet has already.

BTW the latest defense review in the US are showing even more reliance on the F-35 and selling it to allies. The F-35 is getting more and more bulletproof everyday. just sayin'
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2012, 12:09:43 PM »




I'd sure as heck like to have a dozen or so of whatever the heck this thing is in my stash!
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Offline sotoolslinger

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2012, 12:45:34 PM »
OH HECK YEAH :-*

Offline Paul Wagner

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2012, 01:23:37 PM »
all the stuff the typhoon might get "someday" the Hornet has already.

I suspect the Typhoon is just (half-a-)generation ahead of the Super Hornet, especially in the air-to-air role - but if I were defence minister I'd want a fly-off between them to actually find out for sure. If there wasn't much in it, sure get the Hornets for compatibility reasons, but if the Typhoon was significantly better as an interceptor/air superiority*, that'd trump it for me.

BTW the latest defense review in the US are showing even more reliance on the F-35 and selling it to allies. The F-35 is getting more and more bulletproof everyday. just sayin'

...and speaking personally, I find that utterly horrifying... (still waiting for the "sparring room" to get going on this ;) !)

Paul

* Ah, now I remember why: The outcome of the JOUST Simulation which compared the effectiveness of different aircraft in BVR combat “against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents)” resulted in the Rafale achieving an exchange rate of 1 to 1, the F-22 an exchange rate of 10.1 to 1, the Typhoon had an exchange rate of 4.5 to 1, F-16C Falcon 0.3 to 1, F-15C Eagle 0.8 to 1, F-18C Hornet 0.3 to 1, and the F-18+ Super Hornet 0.4 to 1. So, according to this, the Typhoon is better than the Super Hornet
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 02:13:34 PM by Paul Wagner »

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2012, 05:47:47 PM »
Folks,

I want to keep this discussion civil.  Please keep that in mind in your responses.  Please also try to avoid simply throwing unsupported opinions.  If you don't like the F-35 then fine, just say so - just as I personally don't like the TSR.2 then I also don't expect others to like the F-35.

Most importantly though, focus on providing whiff ideas.  Ben has the right idea in this regard.

Regards,

Greg
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Offline simmie

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2012, 07:09:11 PM »
When I started this thread I expected the usual Rafale V Typhoon V Hornet thing.

But nobody has  passed comment on the HAL Tejas as an option!!!

The Indian Navy ve4rsin is in flight test, it could be supplied as knockdowns assembled by Bae Systems at warton.  The cockpit and weapon systems would be lifted straight off the Typhoon to simplify the technian training and provide some economies of scale in the spares purchase.

Just putting it out there for discussion.
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2012, 08:22:32 PM »
OK, this could be interesting.

Typhoon cannot be navalised without several billion appearing out of essentially nowhere.

Tejas is at least a generation behind everything else. It has nearly a whole development programme to go.

Rafale has political strings attached (Dassault).

JSF at this rate will enter service when all our (UK) current naval exchange pilots have retired (or died of old age). Tongue only slightly in cheek.

We could have Super Hornet today with AESA, JHMCS, advanced cockpit, a plethora of targeting pods, Growler, the list goes on. Just like I was explaining the Saudi F-15 buy to a friend the other day: Legacy platform, kickass avionics.

I don't pretend to know what's best for the US, Australia et al but I know which option I'd prefer for the UK. Get SH now. Buy JSF when it's mature (that ain't yet).

All IMVHO.

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« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 08:25:30 PM by Empty Handed »

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2012, 11:09:05 PM »




Stealthy Gripen!

There are few things to keep in mind with Legacy platforms:

1. In order to succeed the JSF has to fail. Legacy planes can't win on merit by themselves, they can only win "by default" if the JSF fails. They are not comparable.

2. They will need a huge amount of avionics upgrades. IT will increase their cost, and their weight. They will need all the sensors and datalinks and other gizmos to do what the JSF would have done. This means whatever legacy platform you were looking at will have to have significant upgrades.

3. Lack of stealth. I guess to conquer this you have to redesign the aircraft (again super expensive) but maybe you can at least do some "small changes" that reduce RCS a little.

4. Technology marches on. The F-22 isn't for sale. And if the F-35 was causing you sticker shock the F-22 will make you go blind! In the mean time Russia and China are developing fifth gen aircraft. so whatever legacy machine you upgrade and spend all that money on is still behind the competition in only about ten years. Legacy aircraft are still only going to be place holders until the "JSF II" can be developed.

So whatever Hornet, Typhoon, HAL, You are looking at is going to be in serious need of a new variant as it is to "hold the line" for a small time until the next fifth gen platform is up.

I am saying all this not to be rude but to kinda get the creative juices flowing. Think about the parameters above and see what you can come up with. I think the E/F/A-18Z could look interesting  8)

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2012, 11:14:55 PM »
Absolute beauty!!! *respect*

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2012, 11:19:12 PM »
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2012, 11:32:56 PM »
I've always loved the MV-36 project... I've got several pics on my HD but don't know who did it. Do you know who created it? Was it someone from one of the forums?

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2012, 02:07:01 AM »
Quote
HAL Tejas as an option

First up I will say that I don't like the Tejas - for multiple reasons - yuck!!!! 

Now that's that's out of the way, does anyone actually have a line drawing that could be used for profiles?  I know there isn't a kit available, which does surprise me.

Regards,

Greg
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2012, 02:09:43 AM »
The MV-36 looks like a ageing middle aged F-22 -i.e. it has developed a serious paunch and added a lot of weight, picked up a few tricks along the way and also changed drastically from the original plan... :D
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2012, 02:40:22 AM »
My only acceptable replacement for a F-35:

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Re: F-35 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2012, 03:35:35 AM »
With an aircraft that will be used by more than one service it is often difficult to discern who is driving what vehicle.  My own solution to the problem would be to add external stores pylons that would be peculiar to that branch of service.  In the case of land based air forces using the stores pylons from the F-16 Yard Dart along with the wing mounted fuel tanks that are most often seen on that aircraft.  The same approach would be applied for the carrier based aircraft such as those to be used by the Royal Navy, US Marine Corps, and US Navy where the stores pylons and fuel tanks from the F-18 Hornet/Super Hornet would be used. 

With that mediocre Panda JSF kit you really need to do something other than straight out of the box.  Even the later release with the weapons bays leaves much to be desired.  Of course I will also be adding wing tip mounted missile launch rails :^)
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Re: F-35 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2012, 04:08:56 AM »
Quote
Thursday, January 12, 2012
Marines Take Delivery of F-35B STOVL

The first two Lockheed Martin production model F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft were delivered to the U.S. Marine Corps on Wednesday, the company announced. The two jets are now assigned to the 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing's Marine Fighter/Attack Training Squadron 501 residing with the host 33d Fighter Wing at Eglin Air Force Base (AFB) in Florida.

The aircraft, known as BF-6 and BF-8, flew separately arriving at 3:13 p.m. and 4:39 p.m. CST, respectively, after their approximate 90 minute ferry flights from Fort Worth, Texas. U.S. Marine Corps Maj. Joseph Bachmann piloted BF-6 while U.S. Marine Corps Lt. Col. Matt Taylor flew BF-8. Both fighters will be used for pilot and maintainer training at the new F-35 Integrated Training Center.

“Today marks the beginning of a new era of advanced capabilities for the U.S. Marine Corps,” said Larry Lawson, Lockheed Martin’s F-35 program executive vice president and general manager. “The F-35B’s versatility, as demonstrated onboard the USS WASP last fall, will revolutionize our nation’s expeditionary combat power in all threat environments by allowing operations from major bases, damaged airstrips, remote locations and a wide range of air-capable ships. This aircraft will give our warfighters the ability to accomplish their mission, wherever and whenever duty calls.”

In October, F-35Bs conducted their first set of ship trials, known as Developmental Test 1, 20 miles off the coast of Wallops Island, Va. During the 19-day testing period, BF-2 and BF-4 conducted 72 vertical landings and short takeoffs, accomplishing all of its test milestones during the mission. For the year, F-35Bs accomplished 333 System Development and Demonstration test flights and 268 vertical landings.
BF-6 and BF-8 are the first two F-35 deliveries to the Department of Defense in 2012 and the seventh and eighth F-35 aircraft delivered to Eglin AFB since July 2011. Previously, six U.S. Air Force F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) jets were delivered to the base.




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Offline Paul Wagner

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2012, 05:59:19 AM »
does anyone actually have a line drawing that could be used for profiles?  I know there isn't a kit available, which does surprise me.


A quick google image search throws up a few

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Tejas_3_view.gif

http://www.aviationfans.com/images/flca_vl.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/TKXOh695jII/AAAAAAAALT8/GVwA37bPjcc/s1600/lca20tejas20topgunchenar4-726756.jpg

Interesting plane. Aesthetically, at least, I do like it - looks like the love child of a Mirage 2000 and and Avro Arrow! Should be pretty zippy!

Paul


Offline Daryl J.

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2012, 07:00:19 AM »
I'm sure it will be some kind of Flying Frito.
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Offline dy031101

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2012, 09:12:36 AM »
Quote
HAL Tejas as an option

First up I will say that I don't like the Tejas - for multiple reasons - yuck!!!!

Tejas was like, you know, MiG-21/F-5 of the 21st Century (it has none of the Fishbed's aesthetic shortcomings, I'll give 'em that; and IAF could have put the danged thing in service as soon as the flight envelop issues are taken care of and still benefit from the improvement over their MiG-21).  It does fleet air defence and some surface strike with a couple of anti-ship missiles or (unless the Tejas has some really good iron bomb delivery aid, more likely of the precision kind) bombs.  Perfect for a defensive navy like that of India but hardly half of what the Americans want to do with their carrier jets.
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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »
F-35 is cancelled... order new-build Sopwith Camels made with composites etc. Materials stealth coupled with being too slow for most legacy platforms to engage...
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-35 Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2012, 09:45:55 AM »
Of course I will also be adding wing tip mounted missile launch rails :^)
Well, you'd be better off using the production outboard hardpoints for missiles (as it's intended that way).  The wingtips are aerodynamic and not structural given the differences between the three wings (though I understand that the outboard wing tips of the A and B variants are very similar, the C variant wingtips are bigger and longer).

Offline elmayerle

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2012, 11:24:10 AM »
There are some interesting things which could be done with the F-16 combined with systems and other developments of the F-35.  Start with the more extreme variant that was proposed to the UAE (they went with a rather tamer variant), add the F-35's engine and a production version of the F-35 concept inlet tested on the JIST testbed.  Replace the existing Vulcan with the F-35A's gun but retain the larger ammo drum (might as well, be way more expensive to design a smaller one in its place).  Replace the Sparrows in the wells with AMRAAMs, or Meteors, and add IR-guided short range missiles of choice.  Replace the mechanically-scanned radar with an AESA unit (there are several available, including one that uses the same technology as the F-35's radar).  It's not as stealthy unless you use lo weapons pods under the wing (much like those proposed for under the Super Hornet's fuselage) but it's still a decided improvement on what's out there.  With that for the land-based aircraft and some of the interesting additions and upgrades proposed for the Super Hornet, you'd retain a fair edge in conflicts.  Depending on just how far you wanted to go, there's lots that could also be done, beyond the Silent Eagle, to upgrade the F-15 to continue to fight effectively (F-35 engines, anyone?) including wing changes and inlet upgrades to reduce signature.  The F135 engine already builds on the results of the LOAN (Low Observable Axisymmetric Nozzle) experimental program and adding in the vectoring of the AVEN (Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle) would help there (not as stealthy as the F-22's nozzles but better than most of what's out there - there are some very interesting high-temp L-O finishes out there).

Offline Paul Wagner

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2012, 11:26:22 AM »
But nobody has  passed comment on the HAL Tejas as an option!!!

The other obvious one no-one has mentioned - if you can't beat 'em, join 'em and get Flankers! They're rugged and reliable, and remarkably cheap for a big, twin engined plane, so even those of us on a budget could afford lots of them. It has 14 hardpoints to carry a huge load of weapons, lots of range, and is probably more agile than any other fighter on the planet. If you want “commonality” between different roles and forces, it comes in a variety of types including single seat air defence fighter, two-seat multi-role fighter, naval version, two seat dedicated strike jet, and super-agile thrust-vectoring models.

If you can't get a licence to make them yourselves, I'd go for Chinese-made over Russian (who have some, er, quality control issues...), and you could either get just the airframe and engines and put in your own avionics, or just go the whole hog and take them as they are, since most of our electronics come from China anyway...

The other major advantage of getting Flankers is we would then know exactly what potential enemies can do. It creates a level playing field, and given the West is always claiming to have better training and tactics (and I don't doubt it) we'd be pretty secure we'd win any clash.

Paul

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Re: What gets ordered when (if) F-35 cancelled
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2012, 04:12:57 PM »
FLANKER POWAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D