Universal Carrier (All Variations)

[Jeffry Fontaine]

A spot for discussion of all variations on the Universal Carrier. 

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Found an interesting BeutePanzer based on the Bren Carrier captured by the Germans that was previously operated by the French armed with a 25mm anti-tank gun at this link: Bren Gun Carrier On Steroids

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Reference page links: Wikipedia - Universal Carrier

[Mark Aldrich]

Would really love to see a styrene Lloyd Carrier made!  The Accurate Armour is just so expensive!

[Caveman]

2 pdr


triple panzerschrecks!


this post has a whole host of bren goodness!
http://forum.worldoftanks.eu/index.php?/topic/131358-universal-carrier-mk-i/page__st__20__pid__2988761#entry2988761

list of variants
http://www.jedsite.info/fulltrack-uniform/uniform/universal_series/universal-series.html

[Jeffry Fontaine]

TOW missile or recoiless rifle (120mm BAT or M40 106mm RR) in post war service? 

[GTX_Admin]

That first one is similar to something I have in mind.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Carrier with bulldozer blade for "light" earth moving and small obstacle removal operations.

[raafif]

been dying to build this .... would have been devastating to German infantry in southern England's hedgerows come the invasion ....

[Jeffry Fontaine]

been dying to build this .... would have been devastating to German infantry in southern England's hedgerows come the invasion ....

Might also work very well as an AOP for the FOO.

[deathjester]

Carrier with bulldozer blade for "light" earth moving and small obstacle removal operations.

What, kinda like an airmobile Bulldozer?  Sounds good.  Could one of those carriers have been a slung load under a Belvedere, or caried in any post war RAF transports?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Carrier with bulldozer blade for "light" earth moving and small obstacle removal operations.

What, kinda like an airmobile Bulldozer?  Sounds good.  Could one of those carriers have been a slung load under a Belvedere, or caried in any post war RAF transports?

Wikipedia provides the following data:
Weight:  3.75t(3402 kg)                       
Length: 144.0" (3.65 m) x Width: 81.0" (2.06 m) x Height: 62.0" (1.57 m)

Anything with a load capacity of 8000 pounds/4 tons should be able to sling load it and any aircraft with internal dimensions sufficient to handle something that was 144.0" long by 81.0" wide by 62.0" in height should work. 

[Volkodav]

I have often wondered how big a gun you could fit in a Hezter or Stug type superstructure based on a universal carrier, would a 57mm be possible?  The other thought is a front engined, covered APC variant with a rear ramp.

[Rickshaw]

Carrier with bulldozer blade for "light" earth moving and small obstacle removal operations.

What, kinda like an airmobile Bulldozer?  Sounds good.  Could one of those carriers have been a slung load under a Belvedere, or caried in any post war RAF transports?

Alecto dozer would have been more useful, I suspect.

[Rickshaw]

I have often wondered how big a gun you could fit in a Hezter or Stug type superstructure based on a universal carrier, would a 57mm be possible?  The other thought is a front engined, covered APC variant with a rear ramp.

You might want to look at the Universal Carrier's big brother, the T16 for that.



The Carrier, Mortar, 3in, Aus.pattern, with its engine moved forward and a turntable on the rear for the mortar it carried was a very useful modification to the basic Universal Carrier concept but unfortunately wasn't built in any large numbers.




Now, a T16 carrier, with its engine moved forward like the Mortar Carrier and with a crew compartment in the rear, would have been a very useful vehicle IMHO.   With a taller hull, with some overhead protection and a rear door/ramp, it would have made a passable APC although the inability of all the carriers to carry much armour would have prevented it being very useful.

[raafif]

 

[raafif]

 

the Russians built their own Gaz half-tracks using captured & copied German maulitier "Bren" track-work too.

[raafif]

trench-jumping Bren-carrier ...... before & after shots 

Canadian trial to increase load-carrying.

Malay improv.

[elmayerle]

Okay, the rocket-Bren clearly didn't work.  However, it suggests that one modified to carry and launch heavy assault rockets (say, the same size as those lifting rocket motors) might work for assault purposes.

[kitnut617]

This one is at The Military Museum in Calgary

[apophenia]

Now, a T16 carrier, with its engine moved forward like the Mortar Carrier and with a crew compartment in the rear, would have been a very useful vehicle IMHO.   With a taller hull, with some overhead protection and a rear door/ramp, it would have made a passable APC although the inability of all the carriers to carry much armour would have prevented it being very useful.

Interesting to see the Carrier, Mortar, 3in, Aus.pattern. Seemingly more useful than the Cdn and British dismount  mortar carriers. A shame that they weren't built in greater numbers -- was that because MetGas was too busy building standard Carriers?

Another candidate for your front-engined idea is the the Windsor Carrier, a Canadian Ford equivalent to the US-built T16 but with a lengthened hull (and corresponding increase in the gap between roadwheel pairs).

The 1944 Oxford Mk.I (Carrier, Tracked, CT20) and postwar Cambridge (Carrier, Tracked, FV401) had front sprockets.  Anyone know where their engines were placed?

[Rickshaw]

Rear.  Passengers dismounted over the side.  This picture of a model of an Oxford shows it, Cambridge was I believe the same.

[GTX_Admin]

The Lloydgun one is interesting.  What gun size?

[Rickshaw]

The Lloydgun one is interesting.  What gun size?

IIRC 6 Pdr.  What was most interesting about it I think, is that the Lloyd carrier was unarmoured.

[GTX_Admin]

I looked it up:  90mm gun

[Volkodav]

I looked it up:  90mm gun

Interesting, so assuming you could fit an appropriate engine an angled, armoured superstructure and a 77mm HV gun would not have been out of the question, sort of a mini Hezter or E10.

[GTX_Admin]

Hmmm...I like your thinking.  77mm tank hunter.

[dy031101]

Actually...... even with only splinter protection, how close is it to an APU-equipped AT Gun?

This set up gives off a compact feel to me, leading me to think that it might not be so bad to employ it as such.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Good news for everyone that has been pining for a better Universal Carrier in 1:35th scale.  Riich Models has released a kit number and an image of the box art that you can see at PMMS via this link: ------> RV35011 Universal Carrier Mk.I w/Crew (more info when available)

[Volkodav]

Good news for everyone that has been pining for a better Universal Carrier in 1:35th scale.  Riich Models has released a kit number and an image of the box art that you can see at PMMS via this link: ------> RV35011 Universal Carrier Mk.I w/Crew (more info when available)

Need need need need need, I love.......to quote my 3 yo.

[Volkodav]

Thinking a bit more on the Carriers, how about a Cavalry version with 15mm and 7.92mm BESA MGs?  CAn you get detailed Besas in 1/35?

[Buzzbomb]

Thinking a bit more on the Carriers, how about a Cavalry version with 15mm and 7.92mm BESA MGs?  CAn you get detailed Besas in 1/35?

Yep

http://www.bnamodelworld.com/skp-model/skp-022

Interesting concept, but really the Light Tank Mk VIB or C was really built for the exact same role, using similar components.

Later on it was not uncommon to see a .50Cal mounted on Universal Carriers, which certainly would have given them a deal more punch. The Russians also mounted the DSHK 12.7mm HMG on carriers in the recon role.

[Volkodav]

Excellent, thanks.

Just looking outside the square.  It was the 15mm in the VI C that inspired this idea.  Does anyone know how the 15mm Besa compared to the Browning .50cal HMG interms of performance and effectiveness?

[jschmus]

Excellent, thanks.

Just looking outside the square.  It was the 15mm in the VI C that inspired this idea.  Does anyone know how the 15mm Besa compared to the Browning .50cal HMG interms of performance and effectiveness?

I couldn't find a lot about this weapon.  This link has some of the info you're looking for:
bit.ly/HaBnvc

[raafif]

there are some modellers who build models of vehicles & aircraft (ie P-51s & Hurricanes) in German markings as they appeared in various movies.  Here's a Bren Carrier that thinks it's a SdKfz-251 halftrack ! (an Italian movie apparently)

[Buzzbomb]

Oh dear... that looks so wrong.. that is somehow looks right for here.

[Volkodav]

From reading various sources it seems to me that the carriers were eventually replaced by APCs such as the M-113 FV432, and Spartan to mention a few. Like AT guns, Infantry guns and now mortars the infantry in many cases lost control of them to other corps.

[Logan Hartke]

The Horror of Tankenstein by boogster11 on DeviantArt

Cheers,

Logan

[GTX_Admin]

Belgian CATI 90 (canon antitank d’infanterie 90mm).  The 90mm Gun was produced by MECAR and was designed to combat armored targets. It could also fire HE (High-Explosive) rounds in an infantry support role. The gun was mounted centrally in the vehicle, with the barrel protruding through the frontal plate. It was in operation between 1954 and 1962, and operated with another Loyd Carrier in an ammunition carrying role.

[Old Wombat]

No spade on the back?

So, how far did they slide when they fired this thing?

[tigercat]

Plastic Soldier Company  are doing a pack of 7 different  versions.

[Story]

You know who else rode on a Horstmann suspension?



Always thought a reproduction Vickers Mk VI on a BREN hull would be neat. Impractical, but neat.

Switching sides, inspiration from the Nazis
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/10/27/universal-carrier-in-german-service/

[GTX_Admin]

No spade on the back?

So, how far did they slide when they fired this thing?

The gun was the MECAR 90/28 mm which was a low pressure gun.  The total weight of the gun was only 274 kg and featured a hydraulic recoil system. The gun had a recoil of 2500 kg and a recoil length of 40 cm.  The CATIs were equipped with two kinds of ammunition, HE and HEAT. The HEAT projectile weighed 2.28 kg and its accuracy and stabilization were achieved by the combination of the projectiles’ initial low rotation and eight stabilizing fins. It had a relatively low velocity of 633 m/s and an effective range of only 1 km, and a maximum range of 3.5 km. Within the effective range, the HEAT projectile could penetrate 350 mm of armor or 1200 mm of concrete. The HE projectile had an effective range of 2.1 km and a maximum range of 4 km. The maximum rate of fire consisted of 10 rounds per minute, with a sustainable rate of fire of 7 rounds per minute. The CATI had an ammunition load-out of 18 shells, the ammunition carrier could carry 54 additional rounds

[newtonk]

Found this example somewhere, purportedly from South Africa bush war period...

[M.A.D]

Belgian CATI 90 (canon antitank d’infanterie 90mm).  The 90mm Gun was produced by MECAR and was designed to combat armored targets. It could also fire HE (High-Explosive) rounds in an infantry support role. The gun was mounted centrally in the vehicle, with the barrel protruding through the frontal plate. It was in operation between 1954 and 1962, and operated with another Loyd Carrier in an ammunition carrying role.

An interesting and cost effective design in my opinion GTX!
In fact I've included the CATI 90 in my 'Alternative ADF ORBAT', as a post-war utilisation of existing Universal Carrier production in Australia, while providing the Australian Army with a cost-effective form of mobility and support firepower.

M.A.D

[Volkodav]

An interesting replacement for a towed AT gun within Infantry Battalions, instead of the gun and the tow vehicle.

Australia fitted a 2pdr to the rear deck of a front engine Carrier variant, but why not a wartime version with a 6pdr mounted as per the CATI 90?  Or even better a Mollins Gun!

[GTX_Admin]

Argentinian Army Universal Carrier with six Czekalski Mod. 68 105mm recoilless guns:

[GTX_Admin]

Version with 25pdr:

[Story]

Go nuts doing all the German variants
http://ftr.wot-news.com/2013/10/27/universal-carrier-in-german-service/

[Rickshaw]

2,5 cm PaK 112 (f) auf Selbstfahrlafette Bren (e) – after France fell, the Germans got their hands on massive amounts of French military equipment, including hundreds of 25mm French anti-tank guns. Several Universal Carriers were converted to use this gun and were operated during the North-African campaign. While the 25mm gun was obsolete by 1942, it still provided the Germans with some firepower to support the infantry against softer targets.

[Rickshaw]

One of the strongest recognition points for identifying an Australian-manufactured LP2 or 2A carrier is the unique shape of the nose of the vehicle - the glacis plate is at a much steeper angle than that seen on British-produced carriers. This carrier is shown in the markings of the Australian 2/9 Infantry Division.

[GTX_Admin]

Something different - would make an interesting diorama:  Royal Irish Fusiliers of the British expeditionary forces come to the aid of French farmers whose horses have been commandeered by the French Army. A Bren Carrier is hitched to a plow to help with the spring tilling of the soil on March 27, 1940.

[kitnut617]

This one is at The Military Museum (formally called The Museum of the Regiments) in Calgary.

[ChernayaAkula]

Something different - would make an interesting diorama:  Royal Irish Fusiliers of the British expeditionary forces come to the aid of French farmers whose horses have been commandeered by the French Army. A Bren Carrier is hitched to a plow to help with the spring tilling of the soil on March 27, 1940.

Literally (if only temporarily) swords to ploughshares! Nice! 

Was there ever a civilian version as an agricultural tractor or was one considered?

[Volkodav]

One of the strongest recognition points for identifying an Australian-manufactured LP2 or 2A carrier is the unique shape of the nose of the vehicle - the glacis plate is at a much steeper angle than that seen on British-produced carriers. This carrier is shown in the markings of the Australian 2/9 Infantry Division.

Is the Vickers condenser hose connected to the Carriers cooling systems or was it a difference setup the AIF used in North Africa?

[Story]

Was there ever a civilian version as an agricultural tractor or was one considered?

Seems to my memory that most of the extant hulls with drive-trains were former farming / logging vehicles that had their armor lopped off.

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder.  Would a Maxson M45 Quadmount be able to be fitted to the rear of a Universal carrier?

[Frank3k]

The Quad was around 1000kg; the NAZIs put a 1500kg Flak 38 on one, so why not? It's possible that these masses include the gun carrier, which is similar in both... so I think it could take a Maxon. The crew can walk behind or in a second Carrier.

[Buzzbomb]

Was there ever a civilian version as an agricultural tractor or was one considered?

Seems to my memory that most of the extant hulls with drive-trains were former farming / logging vehicles that had their armor lopped off.

Certainly was. An Australia Company Stricklands put out a tractor version using surplus Australian LP Carriers, post WW2.


The Conversion was to cut down all the armour, put on a Rolling hitch and move the driver controls to the rear right. They were only a stop gap as they turned out to be not that suited to farm work.
I did a bit of research on these to put together a build of one in 1/35 using the Tamiya Bren carrier as a basis. which is a story in itself.
Short version is I went to the Warracknabeal Machinery Museum and asked if they had any photos of Stricklands Carriers, the old bloke said. "Sorry no photo's... but we have two of them in the shed !"



This build was done in 2005 and a classic case of "if know then what I know now" sort of thing

[Frank3k]

That's a great diorama! The track & suspension was probably to delicate and fiddly for a farm vehicle. I bet your diorama was a common sight.

[Volkodav]

I wonder if it would be effective to raise the sides of the Carrier to turn it into a proper APC?

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder if it would be effective to raise the sides of the Carrier to turn it into a proper APC?

Like the Biafran one at Reply #13?

[GTX_Admin]

I'm thinking the Quadmount could go on the back of one somewhat similar to the Australian 2-pounder version:

[Buzzbomb]

I wonder if it would be effective to raise the sides of the Carrier to turn it into a proper APC?

The move to the Oxford then Cambridge designs, based on the universal carrier principal were the start of the answer to that. The inherit difficulty with the standard Universal carrier is the lack of space for more troops. Additionally the higher the sides, the more clambering and jumping required to embark/disembark if you do not have doors.

As far as I am aware even the word "carrier" is supposed to have "weapons" in front of it, because in essence the design was principally as a weapons carrier. The early versions were earmarked as Machine Gun/Bren and Scout carriers. Each had a distinctive weapons fit and layout. It was the evolution to the Universal Carrier that lead to being used in other roles other than as a weapons carrier, be it Bren or Mortar or towing. Often the other uses were way outside intended uses just reinforces what a sound basic design it was for it's time.

[Frank3k]

I'm thinking the Quadmount could go on the back of one somewhat similar to the Australian 2-pounder version:

How is that crewed? For the Quad mount, you'd need one guy in the Comfy Chair, one guy to drive and two guys to reload - plus one commander... which is fine, but where would you fit the big boxes of .50 cal ammo?

[Buzzbomb]

I'm thinking the Quadmount could go on the back of one somewhat similar to the Australian 2-pounder version:

There is a 1/35 kit out there, albeit resin from IMA
http://www.imaco.com.hk/cgi-bin/prod.pl/id/IMA04035

Image from the IMA Site of a  customer build.

Maxon mount might work and look quite mean. Ammo is a concern as pointed out. It is a voracious beast. Paniers on the back maybe.
Overloading a carrier is quite normal, plenty of images show that

[Rickshaw]

A T16 carrier would be better, with better mobility.

[M.A.D]

I'm thinking the Quadmount could go on the back of one somewhat similar to the Australian 2-pounder version:

That would make one hell of an infantry suppression vehicle, let alone a useful light SPAAG GTX 🤔

I can picture the Australian Army utilising such a light and low silhouette in the Korean War....A diorama with such a vehicle dug in at Kapyong would be cool.


MAD

[Story]

Vickers Mk VI Light Tank
Somewhere I've got stashed a resin kit along with the TAMIYA BREN carrier as a Horstman suspension donor.

[GTX_Admin]

A T16 carrier would be better, with better mobility.

Maybe but I'm not sure if any kits are available.

[GTX_Admin]

Armoured roof:

[Frank3k]

Looks like a tight fit. How do you get out of there in a hurry if there's an impromptu BBQ in the rear?

[Old Wombat]

You can do amazing things when you've enough adrenaline pumping through your veins.

[Story]

Armoured roof:

This a *Dad's Army* home defense contraption?  If so, I could see a Good Idea Fairy suggesting that roof was an ideal mounting point for a direct fire rocket rack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP-3

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z_Battery

Looks like a tight fit. How do you get out of there in a hurry if there's an impromptu BBQ in the rear?

Pooping your pants serves as an excellent lubricant for passing through tight quarters,

or so I've heard.

[Frank3k]

Pooping your pants serves as an excellent lubricant for passing through tight quarters,

or so I've heard.

I just noticed that they have a Boys anti-tank rifle... so they're planning to go up against a tank? Some pooping/sphincter tightening coming up!

[Rickshaw]

It was developed post-Dunkirk.  It looked like a "good idea" at the time but wasn't deployed widely.

[Old Wombat]

Pooping your pants serves as an excellent lubricant for passing through tight quarters,

or so I've heard.

I just noticed that they have a Boys anti-tank rifle... so they're planning to go up against a tank? Some pooping/sphincter tightening coming up!

Actually, against an early war Pz.Kpfw. I, Pz.Kpfw. II & Pz.Kpfw. III tanks, a Boys anti-tank rifle would have been quite effective when used by a steady soldier, as the Soviets proved with the PTRD-41 (although the .55 Boys round was somewhat anaemic compared to the 14.5x144 Soviet round, which was also useful against Pz.Kpfw. IV & Pz.Kpfw. V tanks).

[Rickshaw]

A T16 carrier would be better, with better mobility.

Maybe but I'm not sure if any kits are available.

Resicast do one.  It would however be a simple conversion using two Bren carriers...

[Volkodav]

I have wondered if a 6pdr casemate TD version would have been possible.  If so it would have been a beast.

[Buzzbomb]

I just noticed that they have a Boys anti-tank rifle... so they're planning to go up against a tank? Some pooping/sphincter tightening coming up!

Resicast make excellent kits of the Early Carrier versions that were used from 1934 and into 1940 by the BEF. Nearly all these carriers were left in France after Dunkirk.
There are two types
Scout Carrier - Boyes AT Rifle is part of the standard Fit


Machine gun carrier - carried the Bren and sometimes a Vickers


The Resicast site has some great photos of the kits from various angles, showing the differing fit out. These kits are so far the only ones in the game of the early version as far as I know and build up very nicely. Ask me how I know 
The main difference is how the rear compartment is set up, the Armoured side swaps depending on the version. So you can see why the move to the Universal carrier version from 1940 made obvious sense.

A T16 carrier would be better, with better mobility.

Maybe but I'm not sure if any kits are available.

Could always consider the Loyd Carrier. Different role, different base vehicle, but sizeable enough. Bronco do one of them in 1/35

[GTX_Admin]

Resicast do one.  It would however be a simple conversion using two Bren carriers...

Fair enough:  https://www.resicast.com/products/kits/slideshow-45/index.html

[GTX_Admin]

[GTX_Admin]

I have wondered if a 6pdr casemate TD version would have been possible.  If so it would have been a beast.

Can't say I dislike the idea.

[M.A.D]

Wow, great find GTX
What a great utilisation of an otherwise obsolete vehicle - replace the older petrol engine with that of a diesel.....

P.S. what ATGM's are they? At first I thought they might have been 3M11 Fleyta's, but they aren't 🤔

MAD

[GTX_Admin]

The are Nord SS.10s.  It's an interesting one in many ways.  Supposedly in 1956, the Bundeswehr received a total of 300 Bren Universal carriers from Britain. Most of the delivered vehicles were produced by Ford Canada. The variants delivered were the Type No. 1 Mk.II, Type No. 1 Mk.II MMG, and Type No. 1 Mk.II 3" mortar.  The vehicles were initially used as reconnaissance and infantry-group support-vehicles, because of their speed and low silhouette, however, the Bundeswehr quickly started to instead use them for their original role again, as transport vehicles.  One was developed as an experimental carrier for seven SS.10 ATGM's as shown.

[elmayerle]

Would look interesting parked next to the Bell model 47 with four SS-10's that the US Army trialed.

[GTX_Admin]

Would look interesting parked next to the Bell model 47 with four SS-10's that the US Army trialed.

You sure it was 4?



Mind you, it could still be in German service:

[M.A.D]

The are Nord SS.10s.  It's an interesting one in many ways.  Supposedly in 1956, the Bundeswehr received a total of 300 Bren Universal carriers from Britain. Most of the delivered vehicles were produced by Ford Canada. The variants delivered were the Type No. 1 Mk.II, Type No. 1 Mk.II MMG, and Type No. 1 Mk.II 3" mortar.  The vehicles were initially used as reconnaissance and infantry-group support-vehicles, because of their speed and low silhouette, however, the Bundeswehr quickly started to instead use them for their original role again, as transport vehicles.  One was developed as an experimental carrier for seven SS.10 ATGM's as shown.

Thanks GTX, you know, I didn't even think of the SS.10....🤔

MAD

[elmayerle]

Would look interesting parked next to the Bell model 47 with four SS-10's that the US Army trialed.

You sure it was 4?



Mind you, it could still be in German service:

Yes, I've seen pictures of the US Army testbed.

[Story]

Cardon Llyod suspension derision - where'd the left track and return roller go?

In March 1941, the 7º Bersaglieri Trento Division moved towards Tobruk.
Over the course of action at Sidi Belhassen May 13, 1941, Major Benvenuto Fracassi was awarded the War Cross for Military Valour in the field.
"....during an enemy attack, he went voluntarily in line to take information directly of the action unfolding. Heedless of the danger, also urged him to recognize some enemy tanks were immobilized by our fire, thus providing important and timely news to regimental headquarters. Previously distinguished for courage and high sense of duty. "

[GTX_Admin]

Don't you love the footwear.

[Story]

Don't you love the footwear.

I'm partial to leather 'sports sandals' year-round. 

See also https://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/163962.aspx

[Old Wombat]

Don't you love the footwear.

Caligae* (Latin)

Although only one appears to be wearing them, the other soldiers are wearing shoes & gaiters, the officer may be wearing boots & sand gaiters (to protect the boots).

Of course, if they're small sandals, they could be Caligulae (although why one would want more than one Caligula is anyone's guess).




[*: Actual Roman military caligae varied quite a bit over time, place & function.]

[Story]

Next from OSPREY

COMBAT SANDALS IN NORTH AND EAST AFRICA 1939-1943

[Story]

More inspirations'

https://panzerserra.blogspot.com/2023/01/vickers-light-tank-mk-vib-case-report.html

https://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/3/t/163962.aspx