Author Topic: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 52925 times)

Offline The Big Gimper

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F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« on: December 21, 2011, 10:45:04 AM »
F-104 with Lots of AIM-9s:

Folks:

I am thinking a whiffing a F-104 with 2-3 AIM-9s per wing tip. I would like to build a Multiple Ejector Rack (MER) but with launch rails. Any thoughts on what an official Missile MER would have looked like? One AIM-9 on top, middle and bottom like a T fallen on its side.

Carl
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 04:07:58 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Maverick

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 09:05:32 PM »
I guess it'd be similar to the twin AIM-9 setup I've seen on F-14s but with another rail in place of the pylon attachment point.  There's a sort of precedent to the T format with F-4s & Tonkas having AAMs over other ordnance in that config (albeit vertical).  About the only potential issue would be seperation, but the Jag had overwing pylons so it mustn't be that much of an issue.

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John
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Offline Jeremak

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 05:04:32 AM »
Also you can use dual missle rails from MiG-23 ( http://airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23m/mig23m-8.jpg ), and put right on the left wing, and left on the right wing, so the "side" missles from photo would be on the "lower side" of the wing.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 04:05:07 AM »
If you have enough ground clearance and space available on your wing station, you might be able to get away with an "H" pattern with a pair of missiles mounted on either side of the pylon and a fifth mounted directly to the pylon on the bottom.  Pretty much what you see on the F-15 and F-4 but with a dash of the F-8 Crusader thrown into the mix (remember the Zuni air to ground rockets on the Sidewinder mounts). 
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Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 08:00:40 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions. I'll peruse the stash over the holidays, do some dry-its to see what fits/looks the part.

Carl
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 04:09:13 AM »
Folks,  I have renamed this thread "F-104 Ideas and Inspiration" so as to allow for broader discussions.

To start with - Delta F-104 anyone:



Regards,

Greg

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 06:39:33 AM »
How about a "delta F-104" with a delta T-tail?  Alternatively, one that looks like a cross beween a F-104 and a scaled-up HA-300?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »
Missile Madness Missile-with-a-man-in-it



The missiles are the same scale as the Starfighter.

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
6x AIM-120 on the inboard wing pylons

I guess the triple launchers could be a set-up similar to the LAU-115 twin launcher seen on Hornets, but with a spacer and third pylon straight down. Weight shouldn't be a problem.
Since the wingtips are strong enough to hold the big tanks, I reckon you could also put another AIM-120 or two (over/under) there. In that case, though, you'd better scramble your tanker before your QRA bird.

If you use an angled pylon adapter canted outwards, you could probably use AIM-120s on the belly launchers as well. If you use the AIM-9 launchers for AIM-120s, you'd run into a space problem with the longer AIM-120. The angled pylon would allow them to sit next to the front landing gear doors.

Oh, and a single-piece windscreen for this one.  ;) 'cause it's cool.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2012, 11:50:25 AM »
Italian I presume...the umpteenth upgrade?  I wonder how you would go adding in some sort of conformal fuel tank system on the upper surfaces?  Maybe also give it a more modern and fuel efficient engine.

Either way, simply outstanding! :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2012, 12:46:38 PM »
Italian I presume...the umpteenth upgrade?  I wonder how you would go adding in some sort of conformal fuel tank system on the upper surfaces?  Maybe also give it a more modern and fuel efficient engine.

Either way, simply outstanding! :)
Re-engined with either a PW1120 or a F414 and fitted with conformal fuel tanks filling out the interesection between the intakes and the fuselage?

That would be a suitable companion for the overloaded Super Tiger that Grumman played with.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2012, 12:56:39 PM »
Could certainly be Italian. But when I pictured the modernised Starfighter before my mind's eye, it carried Finnish markings. Don't ask me why, but it did. Single-piece windscreen, AMRAAMs and AIM-9X, LERXes, new engine, adorned in Finnish markings and flying over a snowy landscape at sunset.  ???
Maybe the Italians pushed the modernisation and the Finns bought some refurb'ed ex-Luftwaffe Starfighters? Dunno, maybe the Finns were serious about the "peace dividend" after the Iron Curtain came down, vowing to buy surplus only. Maybe the peace dividend also caused the Italians to abandon the Eurofighter and rather look at another Starfighter upgrade? Whipping history into shape to make the whifs appear plausible.  >:(

Regarding the conformal fuel tanks, maybe something along the lines of the F-104 CCV's ballast tanks? I don't know how much volume these actually had, but they could be a start. Maybe widened and lengthened a little?



And LERXes?
Or canards? Not necessarily a second tail as per the CCV, but maybe some fixed canards à la Kfir?
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 01:13:21 PM by ChernayaAkula »
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 01:00:54 PM »
ISTR that Lockheed schemed some Starfighter derivatives with canards.  I'm not sure where to find the info, though.

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 08:04:00 PM »
Missile Madness Missile-with-a-man-in-it



The missiles are the same scale as the Starfighter.

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
6x AIM-120 on the inboard wing pylons

I guess the triple launchers could be a set-up similar to the LAU-115 twin launcher seen on Hornets, but with a spacer and third pylon straight down. Weight shouldn't be a problem.
Since the wingtips are strong enough to hold the big tanks, I reckon you could also put another AIM-120 or two (over/under) there. In that case, though, you'd better scramble your tanker before your QRA bird.

If you use an angled pylon adapter canted outwards, you could probably use AIM-120s on the belly launchers as well. If you use the AIM-9 launchers for AIM-120s, you'd run into a space problem with the longer AIM-120. The angled pylon would allow them to sit next to the front landing gear doors.

Oh, and a single-piece windscreen for this one.  ;) 'cause it's cool.


Tres cool.

My F-104L WHIF was to have a pure AIM-9 load out. Could I ask you to create a modified version which has

2x AIM-9 under the belly
2x AIM-9 under the outboard wing pylons
Fuel tanks on the inboard wing pylons
2 or 3  AIM-9 on the wing tips. Need to build a launcher for this.

Thanks, Carl
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2012, 02:46:13 PM »
Here you go, Carl!

Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »
That's just crazy! ;D
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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2012, 04:02:07 PM »
Lockheed built CL-1200 variant of F-104.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 04:04:12 PM by finsrin »

Offline The Big Gimper

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2012, 07:10:17 PM »
Here you go, Carl!




Now that's what I call air superiority.  ;D

Mucho Thanks.

 
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Offline Weaver

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2012, 08:48:16 PM »
Folks,  I have renamed this thread "F-104 Ideas and Inspiration" so as to allow for broader discussions.

To start with - Delta F-104 anyone:



Regards,

Greg


Someone built one of those and posted it on What-If ages ago - looked every bit as good in the plastic as yours does in the pixels.... 8)

My personal thoughts on the best way to "improve" a Starfighter revolve around replacing the radar with a guidance system and the cockpit with a large warhead, thereby turning it into the missile-without-a-man-in-it.....  >:D

Vortices from canards could have some "interesting" interactions with the tailplane at high AoAs: it might be possible to exploit them to positive effect of course, but I suspect they be more of a problem than a benefit. One solution might be to eliminate the tailplane altogether: extend the intake ducts to put them just behind the cockpit, then fit tailplane-size canards on them, at about the same distance from the CofG as the tailplanes were. You could leave the intakes as-is, or you could replace them with F-15 style horizontal ramp ones to really exploit the pressure-recovery of having the canards above them...
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2012, 02:38:11 AM »
Detachable Recon Nose:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2012, 02:39:13 AM »
F-104 Viper:

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Online finsrin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2012, 03:54:59 AM »
Viper version - thatz it, a kit bash in waiting for someone on this forum.
Bill

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2012, 12:47:40 PM »
Did someone suggest a missile without a man in it?

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2012, 03:56:47 AM »
<...>
Vortices from canards could have some "interesting" interactions with the tailplane at high AoAs: it might be possible to exploit them to positive effect of course, but I suspect they be more of a problem than a benefit. One solution might be to eliminate the tailplane altogether: extend the intake ducts to put them just behind the cockpit, then fit tailplane-size canards on them, at about the same distance from the CofG as the tailplanes were. You could leave the intakes as-is, or you could replace them with F-15 style horizontal ramp ones to really exploit the pressure-recovery of having the canards above them...



Something like this, then?
The F-15 intakes have been cut to about 2/3 of their original width.







Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2012, 04:23:08 AM »
Yes please!!!! :-*
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Offline raafif

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Re: F-104 Starfighter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2012, 04:41:36 AM »
ooh, that's starting to look very Russian, ChernayaAkula !!
           Stick some red stars on it  :)