What If: The IDF used Panthers instead of Shermans??

[tankmodeler]

Started to work on an idea I've had for a while: what if the IDF based their post war armoured corps on the Panther and not the Sherman? Notwithstanding the issue of supply in the real world, what might such a Panther variant look like?

- I'm aiming for a late 60s early 70s vehicle. The gun would be upgraded to the French 105 as used on the Sherman M51.
- I've added about an inch of armour over the frontal arc of the turret and hull. This increases protection, of course, but can also help with the tendency of Panther armour to shatter if overmatched.
- The engine will be changed to the AVDS-1790 of the M48 and M60 with a new engine deck, the AVDS IR suppression "hump" and a new rear plate configuration.
- In the hull the assistant driver's position is removed to provide space for ammo and the new transmission, which remains at the front. The MG ball remains but is blanked off and the ass't driver's hatch welded shut.
- The final drives get more support with gussets welded between the lower glacis and the side plates behind the drives.
- I think I'm going to add stiffening ribs to the road wheels as well to indicate a design change to support the increased weight.
- No side skirts.
- With the M51 gun comes a shift of the gunner from the left to the right side of the turret and the addition of a cast bump to the right side of the turret for an Urdan cupola.
- A welded plate turret bustle is added to the rear of the turret to provide additional recoil room for the M51 and to shift the radio from the hull to the turret.
- The existing cupola is removed, the hole plated over and the Panther cupola hatch used as the loader's hatch.
- The turret air vent is moved from right to left sides, an M60 gun sight added to the right side of the turret roof and a shell ejection port added to the face near the loader.
- A dust protective boot is added to the main gun where it enters the mantlet and another surrounding the mantlet to prevent dust and water entering the turret.
- two antennas located on the new turret bustle ahead of the radio access hatch (kinda like a Sherman Firefly)
- probably a .50 and a .30 cal mounted on the roof and cupola, respectively.

Whattaya all think?

Photos to follow.

[Frank3k]

Sounds good so far - supply can be worked around; instead of ex-German stock, they can be "new" or re-manufactured French tanks (they had 50+ in use long after the war).

[Logan Hartke]

This might be a bit more modern than you're looking for, but here's a CG model Wyrmshadow did years ago.

and here's an upgraded version by our very own Wyrmshadow:

I like your idea, tankmodeler. It sounds like a fun project. In reality, obviously, the Panther was a nightmare and wouldn't be worth the trouble and expense, especially considering how narrow that turret ring is. But, with the right situation (British refusal to sell the Centurion, like they did with the Chieftain), you might have ex-French and/or ex-Czech Panthers in Israeli service. Unlike some people I've seen that want to put an RO L7 105mm in the Panther's turret, your upgrade plans seem a lot more practical. You also understand the need to ditch as much of that drivetrain as quickly as possible.

- I've added about an inch of armour over the frontal arc of the turret and hull. This increases protection, of course, but can also help with the tendency of Panther armour to shatter if overmatched.
- I think I'm going to add stiffening ribs to the road wheels as well to indicate a design change to support the increased weight.

This is the one thing that I do want to mention. Part of the problem with the Panther was that it wasn't just overweight, but it was also unbalanced. Originally designed for only a 60mm glacis, the increase to 80mm overloaded the front torsion bars, and the failure of the forwardmost one would eventually lead to a domino effect where the others would fail even sooner.



Now most Panthers in WWII didn't survive long enough for this to become an issue, but those operating in mountainous areas like Italy did encounter it. Panthers in places like the Golan Heights would contend with the same design flaw. Adding another inch of frontal armor would compound this issue even more.

Wyrmshadow also addressed this on his "Panther 3" redesign.



Another bit of inspiration might be with the recent Panther replicas being built on Soviet tank chassis. That might be another option.



Cheers,

Logan

[tankmodeler]

Yeah that panther is a bit too modern,  but I like where he went with it.

Regarding the turret ring,  it was modestly larger than the Sherman's so I don't think that would be an impediment to further development and,  with the forward nature of the trunnions, the turret need fewer mods to accept the 105.

Even thought the interleaved suspension was a nightmare in the cold weather,  I'm gonna keep it. I'm assuming my final drive gussets along with modern metals for the torsion bars will be able to handle the weight in the nose. The addition of the new larger diesel will also address some of the unbalance.

At least that's my story! :-)

[elmayerle]

It might, likely will, take some further structural redesign, but how about larger diameter torsion bars as well as improved and stronger materials?

[Logan Hartke]

You may even find some inspiration in this weird hybrid. Clearly what happened here was this manufacturer had already done a run of relatively accurate RC Tiger I tanks and decided to just go the cheap and cheerful route to make an RC Panther. Slice off the hull above the suspension and drop in a Panther-esque hull on top of the beefier Tiger suspension.



It definitely looks stronger and tougher. Kind of cool, just really inaccurate.

Cheers,

Logan

[tankmodeler]

It might, likely will, take some further structural redesign, but how about larger diameter torsion bars as well as improved and stronger materials?

That's kind what I'm thinking is happening inside the hull and behind the road wheels.

I may limit the reinforced road wheels to just the first two or three stations to indicate that the suspension strength issues have been addressed. Yeah! That's the ticket!

I also found a set of M60A1 smoke grenade launchers to tack onto the turret plus I'll be robbing a derelict M50 kit for stowage bins, jerry cans and the like. Will be changing the tool stowage and adding support equipment. All the little details that scream "IDF" as opposed to "Wehrmacht".

Paul

[jcf]

... or just ditch the silly, over-complicated interleaved wheel suspension system and replace
with something more 'Patton' like.
Simpler and actually maintainable. 

[tankmodeler]

While that is really true, changing the suspension to that of the Patton or similar would be a massive change to the vehicle. It would also change it's fundamental Panther-ness, which is not what I'm looking for. The IDF has never changed the basic Horstman suspension of the Centurion/Shot even though the torsion bar system is superior for the upgraded Shots and engineer vehicles. The Sherman switch from VVSS to HVSS was easy. remove the VVSS, cut the chamfers in the hull sides and bolt back the HVSS. There would be a lot of engineering to change the interleaved to the simple system, and it may be that the lower hull length was too short to distribute the weight properly with the larger spacing between units of the simple torsion bar system. Anyway, not necessarily as simple as it looks and probably not something the IDF _could_ do prior to about 65 and not what the IDF would _want_ to get into in the 66-70 period. After that the vehicle would be no the way out and not worth it.

Paul

[Logan Hartke]

I can't disagree there. It wasn't until after '67 and (especially) after '73 that the Israelis got really crazy with some of the tank upgrades. Build it how you want, bud. I'm especially looking forward to the turret and cupola modifications.

Oh, are you keeping the same tracks, or are you thinking about doing a different set for those, too? I don't know which Panther kit you're using and what kind of tracks it comes with, but—depending on the nature of the tracks in the kit—one relatively minor suspension upgrade you could do for the sandy environment would be the addition of return rollers. That's what the French did with the Panther-inspired AMX-50's suspension.



The Germans even used return rollers on a few of their vehicles with interleaved roadwheels, too, such as the VK 30.01(H) and it's progeny, the Sturer Emil.



Cheers,

Logan

[tankmodeler]

Well. I like the idea of the return rollers. And I'm using the newest Tamiya Panther G, but I'm not a German armour guy so I don't have a deep well of Panther AM or salvaged parts so I don't have any spare track links to lengthen the kit set.

We'll see what I can manage.

But I do like the idea.

Thanks!

Paul

[Logan Hartke]

Those are rubber band tracks, right? You shouldn't need any additional links. The existing length should be just fine if all you're doing is adding return rollers along the top.

Cheers,

Logan

[Volkodav]

Very interesting idea and would be a worthwhile edition to the IDF in the early years before more capable vehicles, such as the Centurion, became available.  The Israelis while extremely innovative would almost definitely not have been able to undertake major upgrades to improve and standardise their AFVs during the very early years so extensive local mode would be unlikely ever, unless they had somehow obtained hug numbers of Panthers to make it worthwhile later on.

A possibility I did think of is a third party began producing or extensively upgrading Panthers for their own use late or immediately post war and was willing to supply examples to Israel.  Spain comes to mind for licence produced Panthers, or maybe Sweden, could the Germans perhaps have establish a Panther line in Czechoslovakia?  Alternatively another party could have collected every panther they could lay their hands on and upgraded them to a new improved standard, not only for their own purposes but also to to rebuild their AFV industry post war, i.e. France, or build one after the experience of being occupied i.e. Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Italy, etc.

[tankmodeler]

Photos!

[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_Panther.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_02.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_04.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_05.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_03.jpg[/img]

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

Paul

[Logan Hartke]

The turret and engine deck modifications look great. Nice work!

Cheers,

Logan

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good - any thought to maybe also adding some rangefinders?

[tankmodeler]

Looking good - any thought to maybe also adding some rangefinders?

No. It uses the same gun sights as the M51 Sherman. Didn't want to evoke the schmallturm look.

Paul

[ysi_maniac]

The turret and engine deck modifications look great.

More than great: WWWOOOWWW!!!

[taiidantomcat]

This model is looking great! love the modifications, they look realistic and are very well constructed on the model

[GTX_Admin]

Looking good - any thought to maybe also adding some rangefinders?

No. It uses the same gun sights as the M51 Sherman. Didn't want to evoke the schmallturm look.

Paul

Fair enough

[Buzzbomb]

I reckon you have just about nailed the vision you had.

Not too far fetched with additions and those you have added all have a purpose and work.

Well done

[Feldmarschall Zod]

Looking great Paul.

[philp]

Like what you are doing so far.

I have saved Wyrmshadows versions from years ago and have been thinking of something along the lines he came up with, more the earlier look than the later.

[ysi_maniac]

Photos!

[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_Panther.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_02.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_04.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_05.jpg[/img]
[img width= height=]http://gallery3.kitmaker.net/data/30094/M51_03.jpg[/img]

I hope you can see where I'm going with this.

Paul

WONDERFUL!!!

btw: how is this project going? :)



MOD EDIT: Fixed quote. 

[tankmodeler]

Well, it's on a bit of a hold not for real life stuff (dammit!!  ). I've got a week off over Christmas and hope to move several projects along over that time.

Don't we all, eh?

Paul