Author Topic: F-16 never happens  (Read 37214 times)

Offline taiidantomcat

  • Plastic Origamist...and not too shabby with the painting either!
  • Full Member
  • Stylishly late...because he was reading comics
F-16 never happens
« on: August 27, 2016, 01:50:34 AM »
F-16 never happens:

Was reading revolt of the majors and at the end the author pointed out that the F-16 was a real winner, but USAF could have made due without it. I thought that was interesting.

So what if the LWF never happened? Would we see more F-15s sold globally? Would Europe go a different way? If so which? Would the F-20 be a runaway hit?

If there was no LWF there would not be a YF-17 either, so what happens on the navy side? Do the Marines stick with the Tomcat?
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2016, 02:07:09 AM »
The immediate question that spings to mind is: in exactly what way does it not happen? Is there simply no 'Fighter Mafia' at all to push for it so the cost/complexity spiral simply goes ever upwards, or does it all happen as per real life up to the point of the YF-16/YF-17 flyoff, but the USAF finds a way through the politics to not buy either of them?

If the prototypes get built but not bought, you could see one or both of them being adopted as an export fighter in the same style as the F-5, in which case the story would be pretty much the same for export customers, just not for the USAF who yes, would end up buying a lot more F-15s. In this scenario, you might even see the USN pick up the YF-17 and develop it into the F-18 in the same way as real life too.

On the other hand, if the Fighter Mafia and the LWF never happened at all, it gets very interesting. Would the Dutch, Danish, Belgian and Norwegian air forces have gone for the Mirage F.1 M53 + Jaguar combo they were offered, or even all-Mirage F.1s? Alternatively, might the Danes and Nowegians have been persuaded by the Viggen?

What would the USN have done to replace the A-7? In the absence of the YF-17, might they have been more interested in the more radical joint US/UK 2nd generation Harrier proposals like the AV-16?

What would all the other F-16/18 export customers have done? Would Canada and Australia have gone for the F-15, or maybe the Tornado ADV and Mirage 2000 respectively? It's a pretty safe bet that there would have been a lot more F-15s, Mirage 2000s, Mirage F.1s and Tornados (of both versions) sold at the top end, and more F-5s and Jaguars at the cheaper end too.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2016, 03:41:10 AM »
Very interesting idea.  As Harold mentioned, the circumstances behind this happening would really determine the outcomes.

If the LWF contest is still run but nothing is purchased I believe you would eventually still see something enter service...just a few years later.  Maybe under the guise of President Reagan with a scheme similar to the 600-Ship Navy strategic plan (5000 aircraft Air Force?) which can only be satisfied by a cheaper platform.  I can also see the mindset of the Fighter Mafia types matching well with President Reagan.  Of course if re-started in the early '80s this allows the likes of Northrop Grumman and others to have refined their offerings more which might even allow the F-20 a better chance.  Maybe one could also see someone like Boeing partner to offer a US version of the Mirage F.1.

If the Fighter Mafia and the LWF never happened at all I still think one would see something eventually introduced.  Maybe Northrop finally gets ahead and convinces the USAF to buy some F-20s (though would there be a F404 engine without the YF-17 or F/A-18?).  Would something maybe grow out of a USN requirement for a A-7 replacement - would the USAF accept yet another Navy jet?  Maybe we would see the original VFAX competitors (see here - especially the last post) turn into something for both USN and USAF?

In all of these cases it really depends upon the role envisaged too - would the requirement be more to the ground attack side or would it be more to the light air-to-air side?  If the former, something along the A-7/Jaguar side gets a look.  If the latter, then something more of the F-20/F.1 side.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2016, 03:53:03 AM »
Assuming the YF-17 and YF-16 never got beyond the flyoff...

The F-20 would have most probably covered the market freed up by the absence of the F-16. Denmark, Belgium, Norway, the Netherlands, Portugal and Pakistan would have gone with it.

Greece would have ordered only Mirage 2000s. Turkey the F-20, most probably.

Israel would have sped up the development and inducted into service the IAI Lavi instead (:-*)

Japan could have developed an indigenous aircraft, rather than building the F-2.

Oh, the possibilities...

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2016, 04:05:21 AM »
Another option might be to see low cost/reduced capability versions of the F-15 and F-14 developed.  What might these look like?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2016, 07:16:20 AM »
The problem with proposing the F-20 as a shoe-in alternative to the F-16/18 is that it's development depended on the F-404 engine (as Greg has pointed out) and it's highly unlikely that would have gone ahead without the F-18 program to finance it. I can't see an export-only programe carrying the cost of a new and advanced engine even in the US.

If the Fighter Mafia/LWF process had never happened, the issue of what to export to 'top-tier' allies as a follow-on to the Starfighter would have remained. In real life, the IFA (International Fighter Aircraft) competition of 1970 was intended to find an F-5A Freedom Fighter successor, and was won by the F-5E Tiger II, but this was too small and simple for most Starfighter operators. In an alternative timeline, with no LWF rumblings promising a Starfighter replacement, might the IFA have been expanded into a two-aircraft high/low capability requirement?

The other three IFA contenders were a 'lightweight' Phantom (kinda sorta adopted by Germany), the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer (a big-wing, low tail Starfighter) and the LTV V-1000 (a J-79-engined Crusader). Any of these could have formed the basis of a higher-spec export fighter that could have taken the place of the F-16/18 in export markets. My personal feeling is that the lightweight Phantom was still too complicated and heavy for this requirement. I've never liked the Starfighter but I have to admit that the Lancer fixed it's biggest problems, and on the flip side, I've always had a liking for the Crusader, but I'd have to admit that rear view and radome size would have remained an issue.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2016, 07:36:37 AM »
Another thought: there was a proposal for a big-wing Jaguar knocking around in the early 1980s, which had more power and much better agility. If the export market had been less dominated by US products like the F-16/18, might BAE have been persuaded to put some serious company money behind it as an export prospect? With it still using most of the standard Jaguar fuselage, it wouldn't have been nearly as expensive to jig up as an all new aircraft, in fact it might even have been possible to insert big-wing Jags into the standard production line.

Oman would have been an obvious customer, but probably couldn't take enough to justify a start-up order on their own. Other existing Jaguar customers might have been interested: Ecuador, Nigeria (although they never paid for the ones they had!) and India.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2016, 09:42:44 AM »
Delayed F-20 ends up going with PW1120, same as Lavi?  Or Northrop buys into Lavi (that was definitely looked at) either as a co-developer or as the US lincensee?  Several interesting possibilities.

I rather like Greg's idea of a Mirage F1.W built in the US by Boeing (W for Wichita, much as they were looking at building a version, IIIW, of the Mirage III there at an earlier date).  I wonder if we then would have seen a J79 dropped into the Mirage F.1?

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2016, 11:14:54 AM »
... a J79 dropped into the Mirage F.1?

Love this idea ;)

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2016, 11:34:23 AM »
... a J79 dropped into the Mirage F.1?

Love this idea ;)
And I just happen to have a pair of Mirage F.1's that donated their ATAR 9K exhausts to a high French content Phantom II which also leaves a pair of J79 nozzles to fit them.  Probably will need a cooling scoop like that on the Kfir since the J79 runs hotter, but doable.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2016, 03:07:13 PM »
... a J79 dropped into the Mirage F.1?

Love this idea ;)
And I just happen to have a pair of Mirage F.1's that donated their ATAR 9K exhausts to a high French content Phantom II which also leaves a pair of J79 nozzles to fit them.  Probably will need a cooling scoop like that on the Kfir since the J79 runs hotter, but doable.

You could probably just graft a Kfir tail fin on from the Italeri or Hasegawa kits. The shape is almost identical apart from the scoop and Kfir kits are dirt cheap 2nd hand (at least here in the UK).

I've always liked the idea of a Mirage F.1 with a Spey. Obviously not a straight-forward mod, but then neither was the F-4K.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2016, 03:06:33 AM »
If going with a Crusader derivative for the "new F-16" why not go with the Vought Super V-1000.  This brings the F100 engine as used on the F-15s and thus the same commonality advantage as the real world F-16 had.



All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2016, 03:16:18 AM »
Re the Boeing Mirage F.1, it seems that in the real world Boeing did indeed breifly team with Dassault to develop a J79 Mirage F1 but had to abandon that idea for a totally new design.  This was for the F-XX program started in 1971 to develop a light, highly maneuverable fighter that could be produced at a cost significantly below that of the F-14 and that could be used in combination with, or as a substitute for, the F-15.

BTW, the Spey engined F.1 was also later an option for the F-1E (for Europe) to rival the F-16 before they settled on the M53 engine.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2016, 03:18:24 AM »
BTW, here is where Boeing ended up with the LWF (aka the contest won by the F-16 in the real world):

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2016, 03:22:29 AM »
BTW, here was Vought's eventual contender for the LWF contest - the model V1100:



I suppose it too could have been revamped for later re-use.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2016, 03:26:26 AM »
Delayed F-20 ends up going with PW1120, same as Lavi?  Or Northrop buys into Lavi (that was definitely looked at) either as a co-developer or as the US lincensee? 

I do like either a PW1120 "F-20" (or perhaps the same in the Mirage F.1 or even Mirage 2000).  The NG Lavi would also be very cool.  As I said above I think a lot of the selection comes down to whether the need is ground attack centric or air to air centric.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2016, 05:47:43 AM »
Another thought: there was a proposal for a big-wing Jaguar knocking around in the early 1980s, which had more power and much better agility.


I wonder if this is that one:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline GTX_Admin

  • Evil Administrator bent on taking over the Universe!
  • Administrator - Yep, I'm the one to blame for this place.
  • Whiffing Demi-God!
    • Beyond the Sprues
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2016, 06:29:43 AM »
Another option out of this is that we see a European design fill the hole left by the F-16.  Maybe one of the late '70s/eary '80s British Aerospace designs?  Maybe a joint European project involving British Aerospace, Dassault, MBB, Saab etc to create something akin to the Gripen.  There were certainly many lightweight fighter looked at and this could be a good follow on project for the likes of the Panavia consortium. Maybe even something around a single RB199 engine?  In fact, the RB199 might provide an interesting gap filler also if the F404 wasn't available now - RB199 powered F-20 anyone?  Keep the  thrust reversers from the Tornado as well to satisfy the likes of Swedish STOL operations.

Maybe something around the likes of the P.106 design:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Kelmola

  • Seeking motivation to start buillding the stash
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2016, 07:28:05 AM »
I would say the 37E "Eurofighter" variant of the Viggen gets developed and at least Norway and Denmark operate it. Maybe the increased prevalence of Viggen in the neighbouring countries will cause Luftwaffe to re-evaluate their "no single engine plane after Starfighter" policy? Also, BAe did contribute to Gripen design, so it would not be so strange to see them contributing to the Viggen Eurofighter already. Sea Viggen? The landing gear was already stressed for carrier-grade sink rates, the automatic landing system placed the plane on a runway with the accuracy that would have been good enough for carrier landings, the rudder folded already, and corrosion prevention was probably also pretty good considering it had to withstand outside parking in Nordic winter, so "only" catapult fittings and arrestor hook were missing (yes, I know, navalizing an aircraft is not that simple outside whiffverse, and for example, the thrust reverser would have been so much dead weight on a carrier aircraft).

F-20 proliferation is also a certainty, given that Northrop was going to develop an update for the F-5 series anyway, LFW or not. Of course, Vought might actually find customers for their A-7F StrikeFighter too. With no F-16 sales to be endangered, Lavi goes forward too.

If the Hornet is also absent, I see Canada and Australia definitely going for either F-14 or F-15. Maybe the USMC will also get to keep their almost-realized 'Cat squadrons? Naval variant of A-7F is a given, unless it's a naval machine to begin with. Spain and Finland, anyone's guess. Switzerland, depending on the year of decision, either Viggen or Gripen, or even AV-8B+ Harrier.

Offline elmayerle

  • Its about time there was an Avatar shown here...
  • Über Engineer...at least that is what he tells us.
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2016, 10:26:34 AM »
"Sea Viggen" with a new nose gear that includes the bar for the shuttle?  Might be simpler than adding structure properly for catapult bridle fittings.

With no LWF, might we see both subsonic and supersonic AV-16 variants?  If not, then definitely AV-8B+ and an equivalent British version (Harrier FG.11 or Sea Harrier FRS.2? - or both but with different radars used?)

Whatever was done with the F-20, I could see the production version having to have a bigger wing,  Perhaps first of all there could have been the variant Northrop's support engineering organization put together with enlarged wing with additional hardpoint on each side and power from two GE J97s.  Oh, another thought for F-20, if the YF-17 existed but the F/A-18 never came into being, I could see the F-20 using the J101 from the YF-17; not as large or powerful, but available.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2016, 11:48:18 AM »
Another option out of this is that we see a European design fill the hole left by the F-16.  Maybe one of the late '70s/eary '80s British Aerospace designs?  Maybe a joint European project involving British Aerospace, Dassault, MBB, Saab etc to create something akin to the Gripen.  There were certainly many lightweight fighter looked at and this could be a good follow on project for the likes of the Panavia consortium. Maybe even something around a single RB199 engine?  In fact, the RB199 might provide an interesting gap filler also if the F404 wasn't available now - RB199 powered F-20 anyone?  Keep the  thrust reversers from the Tornado as well to satisfy the likes of Swedish STOL operations.

Maybe something around the likes of the P.106 design:




There were in fact many studies done on various "half Tornados" with single RB.199s and either fixed or VG wings and with and without afterburners. It's likely that if one had been adopted, it would have taken the place of the AMX, and in fact been very similar to it, just with more power.

Britain looked at some tasty lightweight fighters too, with Brough's P.153/P.159 projects being in the right timescale and very doable, involving no structural techniques beyond those of the Jaguar/Tornado, the Buccaneer's blown wing and a single RB.199 with a thrust reverser.

In reality, nothing like this could have been developed in the UK alone in the same timeframe as the F-16 because the Tornado programme ate up all the available funds until the mid 1980s, and by then we were into the Eurofighter. A joint project by Panavia might have been possible, but the Panavia nations wern't the potential F-16 customers, so why would they? What is interesting is that the initial MRCA discussions involved Canada and the European F-104 consortium. With Tornado too expensive for all the latter except Germany and Italy (and they held out for ages for a cheaper single-seat CAS version of the Tornado) and no lightweight US fighter in prospect, might the F-104 consortium have been persuaded to build something like the P.159 as part of an expanded, two-aircraft Panavia consortium? The choice for the F-104 group might therefore have been between the Panavia option and the Mirage F.1-M53 rather than between the latter and the F-16 as it was in rela life.

It's hard to imagine Dassault and British Aerospace in the same consortium in the 1970s following the AFVG debaclé and Dassault's attitude problems with the Jaguar when they took over Breguet.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline taiidantomcat

  • Plastic Origamist...and not too shabby with the painting either!
  • Full Member
  • Stylishly late...because he was reading comics
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2016, 02:40:28 AM »
Enjoying all this immensely! Lot of great ideas all around. I had not considered how the nature of the LWF not happening would also change the outcomes. I suppose anything is possible when you remove the a top seller from a potentially crowded market.

 :)

Has anyone done a profile for a Turkish F-15? 
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2016, 08:38:13 PM »
As much as I like the F-16 things certainly would have been more interesting without it.  Actually considering Pierre Sprey and Co. were of the opinion that the Pentagon ruined their light fighter by making it multi role I wonder what would have happened if they had actually gotten their way and the USAF had been lumbered with a single role light fighter with no air to ground and very limited all weather (if any) capability? 

I know the Light Fighter Mafia were also the champions of the A-10 but even the most ideologically impaired individual would have to have seen there was a need for all weather air superiority and strike, the USAF would pretty much have had to buy more F-15s as well as acquire either a specialist strike aircraft or a fighter bomber to supplement the light fighter.  Start buying extra F-15s and strike fighters to do what the light fighter cant and the whole cheap part of the equation goes out the window, as too would most export sales as many nations could not afford split fleets and needed multi role aircraft.

Best outcome I could see is the F-14B and C would likely have survived and seen very long and productive service, as well as improved follow on derivatives with the F-14A being nothing more than an interim.  Likely the light fighter and attack requirements could have been met by evolved A-7 and V/STOL, perhaps an evolved Sea Harrier type for USN as well as USMC service if the more ambitious options proved to great a stretch.  Maybe the SCS would have survived, or even an evolved through deck Strike Cruiser.

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2016, 12:19:14 AM »
Enjoying all this immensely! Lot of great ideas all around. I had not considered how the nature of the LWF not happening would also change the outcomes. I suppose anything is possible when you remove the a top seller from a potentially crowded market.

 :)

Has anyone done a profile for a Turkish F-15?

The F-16 didn't just change the marketplace, it also profoundly changed thinking across a wide variety of air forces too. For instance in the early 1970s, the next RAF requirement was AST.396 which was written around a common Jaguar/Harrier replacement in the CAS/BAI role for the mid 1980s. Low price, low risk and rough-field/STOL capability were all high priorities. A lot of the resultant proposals were very unsexy, with the high-end being roughly equivalent to the AMX and the low end having little more capability than an armed trainer.

Then the F-16 came out, and the RAF were somewhat startled to realise that you could now combine the kind of attack capability they were looking for with an agile dogfighter in one airframe. Their thinking shifted radically, and AST.396 was replaced with AST.404 which relaxed airfield limits and called for a BIG increase in maneuverabilty. STOVL was hived off into AST.409 (?) for a separate Harrier replacement that became the AV-8B/GR.5. The Germans were thinking along the same lines, and, combined with the good working relationships developed over Tornado, this lead to the genesis of the Eurofighter programme.

Without the F-16 or something like it to change minds and paradigms, would this shift in thinking have ever occured, or would the European air forces continued to be obsessed with buying large volumes of cheap light attack aircraft to blunt the projected Soviet land attack?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Weaver

  • Skyhawk stealer and violator of Panthers, with designs on a Cougar and a Tiger too
  • Chaos Engineer & Evangelistic Agnostic
Re: F-16 never happens
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2016, 12:38:43 AM »

I know the Light Fighter Mafia were also the champions of the A-10 but even the most ideologically impaired individual would have to have seen there was a need for all weather air superiority and strike, the USAF would pretty much have had to buy more F-15s as well as acquire either a specialist strike aircraft or a fighter bomber to supplement the light fighter.  Start buying extra F-15s and strike fighters to do what the light fighter cant and the whole cheap part of the equation goes out the window, as too would most export sales as many nations could not afford split fleets and needed multi role aircraft.


That lead to an intriguing thought. The F-15 was extensively promoted in Europe and a stretched version of the Tornado was proposed to the USAF. With no F-16 to undercut the F-15 and divert European attention from Tornado, might a deal have been cut whereby European air forces bought the F-15 in exchange for the USAF buying the Tornado? The USAF had excellent reasons to want something like the Tornado for strike operations in Europe, it was a high quality product that already incorporated a degree of US hardware, and 'Americanising' it to fit US requirements should have been straight-forward. On the European side, Germany and Italy could certainly make a good case for buying the F-15 to replace the F-4F and F-104S and with a European manufacture and support infrastructure in place (and subcontract work to be won), smaller nations might also have been persuaded to take it on a 'common fleet' basis. The Netherlands and Spain seem like good candidates for this.

The only fly in the ointment would be the UK's Tornado ADV programme. The proposed US Tornado used the ADV's stretched forward fuselage, so if the Eagles-for-Tornados deal was done after it was launched, and the UK was pressured into swapping over to F-15s, then the quid-pro-quo might have been that the UK would use it's now redundant ADV jigs to build the forward fuselages for some or all of the USAF Tornados.

Alternatively, BAC could just hand over the ADV fuselage jigs to McDD in exchange for UK contracts to adapt the F-15 to RAF requirements. An optimised 'F-15K' would be based on the F-15B airframe with  UK-redesigned cockpits for a pilot & RIO, a retractable refuelling probe instead of the boom socket, and possibly the Foxhunter radar, either from new or as a future mid-life upgrade (I know that in practice Foxhunter had problems, but those were in the future at the time that these decisions would be made in the late 1970s). The availability of this option might also help F-15 exports to other countries too (Canada, for example).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 01:05:46 AM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith