What If Weapons

[Jeffry Fontaine]

What If Weapons - TMD CBU + AIR-2 Genie = ?

Was chatting it up with Alvis 3.1 on a social network that shall remain unnamed and the topic of discussion went to missiles and missile lamps and other such things and as usual the banter back and forth resulted in an idea from one of us for a rocket powered cluster bomb.  The resulting creation is attached  to show what this combination could look like if you have enough AIR-2 Genie and TMD shapes in your spare parts box. 

[Weaver]

Interesting: for air-to-ground or air-to-air use?

[elmayerle]

Very nice for getting that dispenser "out there" without the whole aircraft going that deep into harm's way.  It makes you wonder what you'd get combining a cruise missle or UAV with a JP233.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Interesting: for air-to-ground or air-to-air use?

A2G but with the right fuzing and munitions it might work for A2A.  Like a shotgun only more destructive

[GTX_Admin]

It makes you wonder what you'd get combining a cruise missle or UAV with a JP233.

Something I have considered a few times as a mythical follow-on weapon for the Tornado.

[GTX_Admin]

Interesting: for air-to-ground or air-to-air use?

A2G but with the right fuzing and munitions it might work for A2A.  Like a shotgun only more destructive

Would certainly make for interesting use - give a few to an AH-64 or similar...

[elmayerle]

It makes you wonder what you'd get combining a cruise missle or UAV with a JP233.

Something I have considered a few times as a mythical follow-on weapon for the Tornado.

Actually, I've been pondering crossing the JP233 with a modified and scaled up TSSAM.  The all aspects stealth would let you do the necessary approach for a "down the runway" run.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I acquired a couple of Italeri and Academy 1:48th scale AH-64A/AH-64D Apache with the Longbow radar and other features to include some FIM-92 Stinger MANPAD missile tubes for the air to air self-defense role.  In the Italeri kit these are represented at what I would expect to be 70mm in diameter.  The Academy kits however have a different interpretation of the FIM-92 Stinger that looks to be about the same diameter as the AIM-9 Sidewinder (127mm/5.0").  Now with that increase in size comes a corresponding increase in length that rivals the Sidewinder in that respect. 

So what if the RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile was developed to arm helicopters and fixed wing aircraft in a launch tube container?  The AH-64 Apache kit comes with four of these huge things and the launcher adapter unit that mates to the weapons pylon.  The RAM offers a missile that is a little bit larger than the Stinger, 70mm (2.75") vs 127mm (5.0"), so it would pack a bit more punch and lethality into small system that was packed into a sealed tube until it is ready to be used. 

So it is either a fictional FIM-116 (RIM-116) RAM in a tube or the parts get tossed into the disposal pile.  I like the idea of an air-launched RIM-116 RAM.  Now as to what platform it would be used on.  I figured for this exercise it would be something slow that needs a quick snap-shoot capability that would even the odds.  So helicopters would be the first priority and then slower fixed wing aircraft such as the A-10 would be a second choice. 

Anyone else encounter similar situations with weapons in your kits that do not quite fit the description?

[Weaver]

It never fails to amaze me how some otherwise nicely accurate kits have Sidewinders that are only vaguely like the real thing. It's not like there's any shortage of info: Sidewinder has to be the most photographed and documented AAM on the planet.

I've got an old Matchbox Jaguar and that has some "AS-30s" that are notoriously rum. The real thing has a tubular body with a sharply pointed nose cone, mid-body wings and flip-out tail fins, but the Matchbox versions are tapered over their whole length, like a carrot flying point first, and have their wings near the back. I converted a couple into whiff "early experimental Soviet AAMs", but unfortunately, the project they were intended for failed.

Fun fact: most kits of the MiG-25 show the AA-6 Acrids having a single racket motor at the back. Reasonable assumption when looking at grainy photos back in the '70s/'80s, but wrong: the AA-6 actually had split left and right nozzles in between the wings.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

It never fails to amaze me how some otherwise nicely accurate kits have Sidewinders that are only vaguely like the real thing. It's not like there's any shortage of info: Sidewinder has to be the most photographed and documented AAM on the planet.

I've got an old Matchbox Jaguar and that has some "AS-30s" that are notoriously rum. The real thing has a tubular body with a sharply pointed nose cone, mid-body wings and flip-out tail fins, but the Matchbox versions are tapered over their whole length, like a carrot flying point first, and have their wings near the back. I converted a couple into whiff "early experimental Soviet AAMs", but unfortunately, the project they were intended for failed.

Fun fact: most kits of the MiG-25 show the AA-6 Acrids having a single racket motor at the back. Reasonable assumption when looking at grainy photos back in the '70s/'80s, but wrong: the AA-6 actually had split left and right nozzles in between the wings.

There are quite a number of Russian/Soviet missiles that have the split exhaust motor feature starting with the AA-1 Alkali AAM for one reason or another. 

I have found similar problems with each model company's interpretation of a standard bomb shape as well.  Most irritating when they give you so many of the things and all are wrong.  Eventually these things end up getting tossed into the disposal box for someone else to take try and use for their own projects. 

So true about the issues with most kit provided Sidewinder shapes.  Especially the things included in the Academy AH-64 Apache kits.  Two of the things with launch rails that look nothing like the real weapons but the launch rails are nice so the missiles are to be tossed and the rails will be kept for some other project. 

Now the after market accessory company's have started offering "accurate" replacement weapons that may or may not work depending on what references you have to work with.  So it is a blessing and a curse depending on how much you are willing to pay and how much you don't care about details that some are missing.  I am glad for the aftermarket options now available for some of the more elusive weapons but the general purpose bomb shapes are just too many of the same thing. 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

How about some what-if weapons based on the AIM-54 Phoenix AAM?  I doodled around with the basic shape a while back and came up with several concepts that could be fabricated from the basic AIM-54 shape found in the Hasegawa weapons set and most every F-14 Tomcat kit in about every scale imaginable.  The limit is the number of AIM-54 Phoenix shapes you have in your spare parts box. 

The first attachment shows all of the variations on the theme that I could come up with. 

The second attachment shows my attempt at a very long range Phoenix with extended wings and airframe. 

[Weaver]

How about an extended-range Phoenix with a ramjet sustainer? Use on of your tandem-boost configurations, then add some air intakes to the main missile. You could make the intakes by having circular intakes in between the wings (SA-6 style), incorporated into the wings (AS-17/SS-N-22 style), a pair of side intakes (ASMP style), box intakes replacing two of the fins (Meteor style), or maybe just bridge between the fins with a flat plate. An alternative to the tandem-boost layout would be to have the booster within the original length of the missile and add a pair of side-mounted complete ramjets (Bloodhound style).

Moving away from Phoenix technology, but still buildable from Phoenix models, I can up with this idea for a British AAM using scaled-down Sea Dart technology:



Top version is the original Phoenix, middle one has the wings turned around and the control fins cropped, bottom one was new Red-Top-ish wings. In both cases, the nose is cut off and used as the centrebosy of the air intake.

Another simple idea for Phoenix models is to scaleorama 1/100th or 1/144th ones into 1/72nd as advanced version of the Falcon.

[elmayerle]

I like the idea of an IRRJ-powered (Integral Rocket/Ramjet) Phoenix ER with intakes at the leading edge base of the fins.  I've seen some writings that this was Hughes competition to the Vought LVRJ concept; Vought won the technical demonstration contract, but no production derivative ever materialized.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

How about an extended-range Phoenix with a ramjet sustainer? Use on of your tandem-boost configurations, then add some air intakes to the main missile. You could make the intakes by having circular intakes in between the wings (SA-6 style), incorporated into the wings (AS-17/SS-N-22 style), a pair of side intakes (ASMP style), box intakes replacing two of the fins (Meteor style), or maybe just bridge between the fins with a flat plate. An alternative to the tandem-boost layout would be to have the booster within the original length of the missile and add a pair of side-mounted complete ramjets (Bloodhound style).

Moving away from Phoenix technology, but still buildable from Phoenix models, I can up with this idea for a British AAM using scaled-down Sea Dart technology:
<snip>
Top version is the original Phoenix, middle one has the wings turned around and the control fins cropped, bottom one was new Red-Top-ish wings. In both cases, the nose is cut off and used as the centrebosy of the air intake.

I like the ram-jet idea.  Reversing the fins might be a bit much though unless you have a lot of spare Phoenix shapes to dispose of. 

You could do that with the AGM-78 Standard ARM (RIM-24 Tartar and the RIM-66 Standard) missile too.  Clip the nose, relocate it inside of the missile body and give it a ramjet instead of solid rocket motor.  Makes you wonder what an air-launched RIM-8 Talos would look like :)

Another simple idea for Phoenix models is to scaleorama 1/100th or 1/144th ones into 1/72nd as advanced version of the Falcon.

Even better is to just use the Phoenix as the Falcon without scale-0-rama since the AIM-47 was almost the same size as the AIM-54 it makes sense in a way to just change the name and number designation and call it a member of the Falcon family.  Maybe AIM-47C or AIM-47D? 

I have been holding on to a few 1:72nd scale AIM-54 shapes for the express purpose of using them as replacements for the AIM-4 series Falcons as they are just about the right size for a 1:48th scale AIM-4 replacement.  The question remains as to what aircraft will receive them. 

[Volkodav]

Graft a Maverick IR/TV nose on for one quite impressive AGM.

[Weaver]

Graft a Maverick IR/TV nose on for one quite impressive AGM.

I think I'm right in saying that there was a proposal to make an anti-radar version of the Phoenix. That'd hurt: radar operator's last words were "quick, turn the radar o....." 

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Graft a Maverick IR/TV nose on for one quite impressive AGM.

I think I'm right in saying that there was a proposal to make an anti-radar version of the Phoenix. That'd hurt: radar operator's last words were "quick, turn the radar o....." 

Not always advertised in the sales brochures but some missiles do have a 'Home on Jam] feature. 

As for mating an electo-optical seeker/guidance section to the Phoenix, that is something that should be explored.  What kind of targets would be worth expending an EO Phoenix on?  Unless you sell it as the larger and more lethal big brother of the AGM-65 Maverick where you need a bit more ooooomph to service the target. 

The original HOBOS series of guided weapons were modular in a similar fashion with interchangeable seeker/guidance units for standard TV, IR, and possibly an ARM seeker for a passive engagement of radars.  Having a Phoenix with an ARM capability would be quite the tool and to the casual observer the differences might not be seen so you could have an ace up your sleeve advantage when it comes time to shoot the thing at your opponent.   

[elmayerle]

Graft a Maverick IR/TV nose on for one quite impressive AGM.

Undoubtedly an AGM-76 http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-76.html variant.

[Kerick]

Look up the Harpoon missile, Lots of variations there including Stand off Land Attack Missile SLAM version.

[Volkodav]

Wasn't there a surface launched Sea Phoenix propose or possibly even trialed?  Once you have the launcher for that then you could also ship anti radiation and anti surface versions too.  It's not too dissimilar to Standard in overall size so how about a version with a small booster for Mk-13/22/26 GMLS and Mk-41 VLS.  I assume it would be too large / heavy for Mk-29/48/56.