Author Topic: Need some opinions...  (Read 10168 times)

Offline mikejapan

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Need some opinions...
« on: March 09, 2013, 05:43:40 AM »
It just hit me one day that I would for some reason enjoy an F-14 Tomcat that was built for jet races.
I would like some input on this matter.
Would some corners be cut on the F-14 or some more aerodynamic features be added and etc?
This is my inspiration > http://megagames.com/sites/default/files/game-content-images/nexgen_l1.jpg

Thanks,
Michael

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2013, 06:02:27 AM »
Well for one you could lose the back seater...
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Offline Tophe

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2013, 10:30:08 AM »
A single fin (asymmetric) would decrease drag, increase speed, and would be enough control for a racer without dogfighting anymore ;)

Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2013, 10:46:19 AM »
Single asymmetric vertical fin on the list. Maybe a redesign depending? Similar shape to a Harrier or an early test Flanker P-42?
Any power plant suggestions?
I'm not sure if this is needed but would a redesign of the intakes be required?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2013, 02:17:00 PM »
Actually, if you went with an evolved F401, you wouldn't need to alter the intakes, but you'd likely have 35,000 lbt, per engine, in full burner.  I'm talking about taking the F401 as it existed in 1974 when cancelled and subjecting it to the same development and evolution as the F100 (which has an unbuilt version capable of 32,000 lbt in burner to match GE's hottest F110).  Since the two share a common core, with the differences being in the fan and low turbine that drives it, this is not at all unreasonable.

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2013, 02:20:29 PM »
Re engines, you could probably go with something akin to race engines.  In other words, highly tuned, high thrust engines that are changed out after every race or every few races. 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2013, 02:29:16 PM »
Ah, about like the "stock" engines in the recce MiG-25's where they had to be swapped out after a high-speed run.

Taking that approach with an evolved F401, you could probably get up around 38,000 lbt in full burner for a race.

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2013, 02:31:15 PM »
Exactly.
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2013, 02:33:29 PM »
You wouldn't need the chin pod, the pylons could go too (though I like the way they make the Tomcat look). Maybe a reshaped or even reduced beaver tail?
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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2013, 03:28:14 PM »
I like the F401 and Mig-25 engine ideas.
Since this is a racer plane, that means like some have already said is to remove all combat related equipment.
I think that keeping a RIO is just for test purposes of some sort.
Good idea on the beaver tail. I'll think of something.

What about the fences on the upper fuselage between the wings? Keep them or drop them?
Any suggestions on the ventral fins and horizontal stabilzers?

BTW....Asymmetric fin. I really don't know Tophe. lol It's definitely different from some pictures I've found.
 

Offline upnorth

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2013, 06:37:55 PM »
A few ideas that occured to me:

Replace the three piece windscreen with a single frameless piece similar to what's been done with some T-33s on the civil circuit. That should represent a weight savings by less framing and a reduction in drag by not having the flat section in front.

Lightened landing gear. Since it won't be landing on carriers and you'll have substantially reduced the weight by taking out the military gear, the big sea legs won't be required.

Presuming the radar will be stripped out too, that gives you the option for reshaping the nose for optimal airflow.

One thing that really struck me is what to do about the wing pivot gear, that's a ton of weight to consider. 

I have no idea if it was possible to get the Tomcat off the ground with any degree of sweep beyond minimum in the wings, but if it was then perhaps an acceptable sweep angle could be found that could both get the plane off the ground and let it hit a competitive racing speed and the wings could be locked there and parts of the swing mechanism could be removed.

Of course that also opens doors to a giving it a completely redesigned, perhaps lighter and simplified, wing.
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Offline Artoor_K

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2013, 07:57:29 PM »
F-14XL with ogival delta wing. ???


And another F-14 iteration which looks a bit like a heresy.





Especially second mod looks great :) Concorde wing , removed airbrake, simplified canopy. Of course landing gear is too massive so I would reconsider changing it to F-16-ish.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 08:01:18 PM by artoor_k »
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Offline aerospacer

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2013, 11:35:03 PM »
Lose the cockpit bubble altogether and go for an integrated cockpit with small windows a la XF-103 for a single reclining pilot. Compensate for the limited visibility with a camera/sensor based synthetic vision system.

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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2013, 11:52:33 PM »
Lose the cockpit bubble altogether and go for an integrated cockpit with small windows a la XF-103 for a single reclining pilot. Compensate for the limited visibility with a camera/sensor based synthetic vision system.

Martin

So it's like what I did with my F-15SMT? The COFFIN system I mean?

And the 2 concept aircraft are nice but that's REALLY stretching it for me. lol  ;D
I'd like to keep the swing wings and removing all the combat equipment and etc is quite a load of the Cat.

Michael

Offline aerospacer

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2013, 12:47:09 AM »
Personally I wouldn't go quite as far as postulating neural interfaces and stick with good old fashioned side controllers instead, but the external look would indeed be pretty much like in a COFFIN design, although with side and possibly top windows, like for example the in flight configuration of the Concorde prototypes.

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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2013, 01:18:57 AM »
Hmmm I see. Actually there were COFFIN versions that still used the side stick controls from what I recall.
I'll keep in mind about that mod.
For the landing gear, I think I have a spare set of SU-30 type landing gear around. Should I use those?
As for the Radome, I will leave it since it's already nicely tapered.

I've already decided on a paint scheme for the plane. Just imagine the sponsors.... >.>
I was also looking at this kind of vertical stabilizer for the Tomcat. http://f.hatena.ne.jp/Mirage/20090507123131
Also considering canting the tails like this one. http://venom800tt.deviantart.com/art/F-14E-Block-II-upgrade-WIP-1-335468665

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2013, 02:48:52 AM »
A few ideas that occured to me:

Replace the three piece windscreen with a single frameless piece similar to what's been done with some T-33s on the civil circuit. That should represent a weight savings by less framing and a reduction in drag by not having the flat section in front.

Lightened landing gear. Since it won't be landing on carriers and you'll have substantially reduced the weight by taking out the military gear, the big sea legs won't be required.


The single windscreen idea will also make it "look faster"  :) Mike, you could also paint some of the clear canopy piece aft of the pilots station (just a thought)

Brilliant! I had not even thought about the Landing Gear! If you look at Tomcat landing gear bays, they have tons of doors as well, the front section has FOUR alone! For as much as I like the Tomcat front gear with the twin wheels, a single door/single wheel would really stand out I believe  :) give the LW cred you are going for.

I have removed the Four Strengthening ribs on Tomcat kits before, it takes about 2 minutes with a razor saw, or you can clip and sand with some sprue nippers. IMHO I think you should do it for the aesthetics, it will make it look smooth, smooth=fast. plus its more nice space for exotic paint jobs or sponsors  :)

Right click save on those two Tomcat links as well bud  :) :) Thanks!
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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2013, 02:58:30 AM »
"I have removed the Four Strengthening ribs on Tomcat kits before, it takes about 2 minutes with a razor saw, or you can clip and sand with some sprue nippers. IMHO I think you should do it for the aesthetics, it will make it look smooth, smooth=fast. plus its more nice space for exotic paint jobs or sponsors  :)"

Strengthening ribs? Where exactly do you mean on the plane?

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2013, 03:02:37 AM »
"I have removed the Four Strengthening ribs on Tomcat kits before, it takes about 2 minutes with a razor saw, or you can clip and sand with some sprue nippers. IMHO I think you should do it for the aesthetics, it will make it look smooth, smooth=fast. plus its more nice space for exotic paint jobs or sponsors  :)"

Strengthening ribs? Where exactly do you mean on the plane?




 :)

I would also look into Carbon Fibre Scale Decals (Make sure you include the word "Scale" in your searchers or you will get lots of 1:1 scale stuff) Carbon Fiber is really popular with racing vehicles of all types
« Last Edit: March 11, 2013, 03:09:36 AM by taiidantomcat »
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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2013, 03:18:03 AM »
Oh those fences! I thought about that yesterday but I wasn't sure if it was really needed to remove those.
I'm also contemplating on adding sawtooths on the horizontal stabilizers for some reason. Which will also make it unique!

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2013, 04:54:58 AM »
Replace the three piece windscreen with a single frameless piece similar to what's been done with some T-33s on the civil circuit. That should represent a weight savings by less framing and a reduction in drag by not having the flat section in front.
A blown, frameless windscreen was part of the future upgrade proposals Grumman had out there under the various "Tomcat 21" and "ASF-14" designations.  It just makes sense.

Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2013, 05:28:13 AM »
^ I noticed that! I bet I can just throw on an F-15 windscreen for the hell of it. I have a spare one from an F-15E.
Would lengthening the ventral fins be beneficial as well?

Michael

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2013, 10:15:20 AM »
One thought that occurs to me is to go with longer and deeper ventral strakes (perhaps 1/48 strakes on a 1/72 kit) and a single vertical tail like Grumman's final mockup.  The longer and deeper strakes would oblivate the need for the additional fold-down strakes on the mockup.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2013, 08:56:58 PM »
Smooth out the Sparrow troughs on the underside: airflow in that area is REALLY important on the F-14 (the AIM-54s screwed it up so badly that 4 x Sparrows on the belly were often chosen where long-endurance was more important than engagement range).

I'd hesitate about shortening the beaver tail: you might get increased base drag that negates the benefit.  Lengthening it on the other hand, and making it a smoothly tapered shape, might actually reduce profile drag though....

A single fin is definately a good idea IF you don't need high-alpha maneuverability.

It all really depends on the format of your race: if it's a long-distance straight-line exercise then all these things will make a difference. If it's a pylon-race-on-steroids though, you might want to retain that high-alpha capability since there's not much point going like a bat out of hell down the straights if your turn radius around the pylon sucks. If the distance is long, then the Tomcat's high internal fuel fraction will count in it's favour, but if it's short, then you're just dragging empty tankage around with no benefit.

If it is a pylon race then the F-14 (or any swing-winger) would be a very keen choice, given it's large speed range. In fact, if it's a shortish range pylon race, I might be inclined to enter a cleaned-up MiG-23, given it's acceleration....  ;)
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Offline mikejapan

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Re: Need some opinions...
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2013, 02:05:40 AM »
It's definitely a pylon race with some tight turns. Nothing an F-14 CAN'T handle ;)
Sorry everyone I forgot to mention that.... ::)