Author Topic: AVRO Lancaster, Manchester, Lincoln and Shackleton (and derivatives) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 86339 times)

Offline kitnut617

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What was really interesting was his follow up suggestion, that after 100 two stage Merlin Lancasters were built, production should switch to a higher powered version using a license manufactured version of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800 Double Wasp.  Now just imagine that a late war RAAF Lancaster III with three or four twin .50" cal turrets and four massive Double Wasp radials, that would be an interesting wiff build.

I have read a bit on this as well.  The plan was definitely for the DAP Lancasters/Lincolns to be R-2800 powered.  It is very tempting to model one.

Interestingly, there were also pushes from the USAAF for Australia to produce the P-47 using the same engine. A RAAF P-47 in P-51 scheme would also be interesting.

And right now I have four R-2800 resin nacelles/engines winging it's way over to here to do just that. I've been contemplating what the nacelles would have looked like, I'm leaning towards nacelles like what Tudors had ---- 

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Take it one step further and mate some R3350s to t he Lincoln?
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Offline raafif

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the P&W R-2800 looks ok with P-47 cowlings but the B-29s Wright R3350s look a little too big.

Offline kitnut617

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One of my projects is putting Centaurus engines on one of my Shackletons. The engine nacelle fits just fine without any mods to the Shackleton nacelles, so my plan is to use F7F R-2800 nacelles. These should fit without any mods to a Shackleton nacelle too, as these engines are a tad smaller than the Centaurus. Shackleton nacelles are very similar to Tudor nacelles and they fit quite well on a Lancaster wing.

Oil coolers, aftercoolers and such I would put in a leading edge radiator housing as was planned with the Shackleton MR.4 which was to use R-3350's in one concept.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2022, 12:25:57 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Looking at the specs on wiki, a R-2800 is 700lb heavier than a Merlin (dry weight). I'm thinking you'd have to make it like a Lincoln with the extended rear fuselage just to counter the weight difference. So if I was to build a Lanc with R-2800's, I might as well build it as a Lincoln. That way I can use the increased AUW for a decent bomb load. A Lancaster could carry fifteen 1000lbers, I've been thinking what if the 5-bomb clips (found in the Vickers Valiant) were developed earlier then the bomb load could be twenty-five 1000lbers, well within the Lincoln's AUW limit.

Offline KiwiZac

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I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but a Dart-powered Lancastrian has always tickled my fancy...
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Looking at the specs on wiki, a R-2800 is 700lb heavier than a Merlin (dry weight). I'm thinking you'd have to make it like a Lincoln with the extended rear fuselage just to counter the weight difference. So if I was to build a Lanc with R-2800's, I might as well build it as a Lincoln. That way I can use the increased AUW for a decent bomb load. A Lancaster could carry fifteen 1000lbers, I've been thinking what if the 5-bomb clips (found in the Vickers Valiant) were developed earlier then the bomb load could be twenty-five 1000lbers, well within the Lincoln's AUW limit.

Yeah not sure - going for the air cooled engines would remove the need for the radiators etc so there would be some balancing up there but I would love to know if there were any drawings made of how this fitment would have looked.  Given the Australian s eventually got Lincolns instead, it isquite conceivable that the resulting build would have ended up more akin to a R-2800 powered Lincoln anyway.
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Offline jcf

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Net weight change is hard to figure when going from liquid-cooled engines to air-cooled
because it's difficult to come up with numbers on total installed weight, all the systems
required, for most liquid-cooled engines. Also the weight of the coolant is a necessary
number.

I found the numbers for a two-stage two-speed Merlin, IIRC either a P-51D or a Spitfire,
but I'm damned if I can recall where off the top my head. I'll think on it and have a look
round. Coolant and oil system capacities are as important as fuel in determining the
actual loaded weight, but for some reason most references don't include that info.
 :-\

The R-2800-22/22W and -34/34W were the standard F7F engines and weighed 2,385 lbs.

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Offline kitnut617

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Greg, were you thinking the nacelles would have been like this

Offline GTX_Admin

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Honestly, I haven't gotten that far.  My references don't state exactly which variant of the R-2800 was considered though there is commentary that they were looking at an 1850hp variant which would have put in as an "A" Series variant.  They also say that AV Roe and the DTD Air Ministry examined the idea and concurred on the viability equating the performance with the planned 1944 model Merlin MK68 Lancaster.  This was all in 1942.  They also talk about the same power being used for a version of the AVRO York.

Now parallel with this, we know that the CAC CA-15 original plans were to use the following:

  • R-2800-10W of 2200 hp
  • R2-800-57W of 2800 hp

So one might conceivably see similar for any Australian DAP produced R-2800 powered Lancaster.  If one also uses the P-47 reference as a basis, we now that P-47J and N subvaraints also used the -57 version so one could probably surmise that this would have ended up being the version used which would probably have resulted in greater performance given the conceivable 4000hp (1000 per engine) extra power between this and the original version proposed and consequently a performance better than the 1944 model Merlin MK68 Lancaster.

As to the cowlings, I was thinking maybe something simple such as that used on Venturas.
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Offline kitnut617

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Interesting, but one thing about the R-2800's in the P-47, they also had the big turbo-charger. So, does this mean the turbo would have been somewhere inside the nacelles ? There would have to be room for big intercoolers too, so air scoops and outlets somewhere.

So you would have to accommodate all this lot in each nacelle --- right?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 08:23:09 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Rickshaw

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You could use an abbreviated P-47 fuselage as a cowling...

Offline GTX_Admin

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I don't believe they were talking about turbocharged R-2800s in this proposal....

...mind you, in the whiff verse, such could be an interesting development...
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 01:18:28 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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I figured out that a good portion of the turbo-charger equipment could be install in the rear of the Shackleton nacelle, I would go with the leading edge radiator housing for all the coolers though. I'm thinking all the nacelles would have the sticky out bit at the rear end. With a lot of weight in the rear end there, I can go back to doing a Lancaster and save my Lincoln conversion for a RW build. I might though use the extended outer wings the Lincoln had though, I like the idea of twenty five 1000blers  >:D  The longer wings would help as I'm planning on using 14'-0" diameter props, inner nacelles can stay where they are, it's the outer ones that would have to be re-positioned.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 03:04:13 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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I don't believe they were talking about turbocharged R-2800s in this proposal....

...mind you, in the whiff verse, such could be an interesting development...

You were saying that they were talking about using the P-47 engines as something common, all the P-47 used was the turbo-charged variants of the R-2800's.

Offline GTX_Admin

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The P-47 bit was more that the USAAF were pushing for Australia to adopt the P-47 at the time which may have also boosted R-2800 production/variants selected. The rest is my speculation
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I have two Paragon Designs 1/48 Avro Lincoln Conversions in the stash...I'm thinking one might get an engine swap:




« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 03:21:08 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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I have the 1/72 Flightpath conversion.

Or I could do another one of these,  :smiley:   I conjured up for it some RR 24 cylinder Eagle engines for power units

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Ah, one of the all time classic whiffs! :-*
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Offline kitnut617

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Thanks   :-[

But I really want to do a Lancaster float plane. I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 03:34:44 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline GTX_Admin

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I will meet you halfway:  what about an Avro Manchester floatplane? ;)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 03:38:05 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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And there's that too, there's photos I've seen of a Manchester being catapult launched in a cradle --- float plane version wouldn't be too far stretched ----

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All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

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... I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.

Was it Grey Matter Figures aka Grey Matter Aviation? If so, the resin conversion set is £55!

-- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK
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Offline kitnut617

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... I remember someone posting a link for a 1/32 Spitfire float plane conversion, which I think would be better to use than the 1/24 ones I used on the Nottingham. I can't remember the outfit that made it though.

Was it Grey Matter Figures aka Grey Matter Aviation? If so, the resin conversion set is £55!

-- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224105431138?epid=1312933571&hash=item342db98062:g:bYMAAMXQd2hRY6lK

Certainly looks like it Stephen,  :smiley:  thanks.  There was a contact address too, and I was going to see if I could just buy the floats. But, RW got in the way ----
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 11:33:37 PM by kitnut617 »