Author Topic: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 30733 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2015, 03:46:23 AM »
or that the Leo needs a 'heavy' tank to back it up (really a return to WWII ideas), so they buy the Chieftain, suitably 'Germanised'

I like that idea
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Offline Gingie

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2015, 04:02:22 AM »

Multi-purpose Armored Platform (MAP) heavy APCdevelopment of the Tariq main battle tank (upgraded version of Centurion) which features front and rear hatches for troops to dismount:


Dismounting from the front... visions of D-Day landing craft scene from Saving Private Ryan pop into my head  :o

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2015, 04:54:15 AM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2015, 05:56:23 AM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The separate ammo probably does slow down the rate of fire a bit, but I imagine that's a small price to pay for ten extra shots before you have to disengage and go looking for your logistics.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2015, 10:20:58 AM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.

Hum...... I am under the impression that separate-piece ammunition results in lower rate of fire than a fixed round would.  But what is more important for extended, long-duration operations?  Ammo count or rate of fire?

The ROF difference is at worse marginal.  With a well trained crew, the ROF is comparable to a weapon using fixed ammunition.  With split ammunition you gain greater safety (at the time of it's introduction) and a lighter weight turret (not requiring as much protection) which can be better shaped to meet the enemy's fire.  The RAC crews on Chieftain/Challenger were more often let down by their FCS's than the gun and reloading in the various international competitions they took part in.   It wasn't until their dismal showing in the mid-1980s, when the M1 and the Leopard II were introduced in widespread service that the FCS was updated to match the German/American systems.    They showed they were as capable in the first Gulf War, scoring at the time the world's longest kill at over 3,000 metres IIRC.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2015, 09:59:02 PM »
The Russian ammo is separate: In the T-72 and T-90, each propellant charge sits above it's projectile in a cradle which is elevated to the ramming position. The shell is rammed, then the cradle drops down a level and the charge is rammed. In the T-80, the two components are gathered up by a cradle and them rammed in one action.

I think you very probably could use a human loader with the 125mm.

I've encountered a claim online stating that the EE-T2 Osorio MBT uses a version of Vickers Mk.7 turret and was to have a version armed with a Eastern-Bloc standard 125mm gun.

Hum...... export Challenger or maybe even Iranian development of Chieftain with Ukrainian or Chinese 125mm gun......?

======================================================

Also, from Wikipedia page for Mobarez, actual Iranian development of Chieftain:

Quote
The gear box is changed so the tank can have 360 degrees turret turn.

Huh?  Does Chieftain tank have some problem with turret traverse?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 10:42:40 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2015, 03:34:10 AM »
Also, from Wikipedia page for Mobarez, actual Iranian development of Chieftain:

Quote
The gear box is changed so the tank can have 360 degrees turret turn.

Huh?  Does Chieftain tank have some problem with turret traverse?

I suspect that's a case of 'lost in translation.' The Chieftain didn't have a problem with turret traverse per se, but it did have restricted gun depression over the engine deck, as many other tanks do too. That got even worse with the Jordanian Khalid which had a raised engine deck to accomodate a Chally engine. What I suspect Iran has done is re-package the engine bay to make the deck lower.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2015, 07:37:55 PM »
Chieftain AVRE with a 165mm demolition gun.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2016, 01:16:25 PM »
It would also have reduced the ammo capacity: Chally's carry 52 rounds which is ten more than most 120mm-armed tanks, mostly due to the fact that 104 short fat cylinders jigsaw into a limited space better than 52 long thin tubes.
Tank-EX, Indian development by combining Arjun turret with T-72 hull.

I still kinda feel that it was a pretty good idea for India, but oh well......

It looks top-heavy with that massive turret.
105mm-armed MBTs generally carried a decent number of rounds so they could afford some non-anti-tank ones, but the 40-odd rounds carried by 120mm-armed MBTs seems to be at the lower limit of what tacticians consider acceptable. Pre-Iraq, the US Army went through a phase of not issuing the M1 with ANY HE round.

And a recent Wikipedia browsing suggests that the Indian Tank Ex project (combining T-72 hull with Arjun turret) carries just 32 rounds of ammunition and the Arjun MBT 39 rounds.

Is the Arjun (and by extention the Tank Ex) using the same gun as the Challenger (or even the Chieftain), or is the Arjun's gun an indigenously-Indian effort?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 01:20:51 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2016, 01:57:55 PM »
The Indian gun is not the same gun as the Chieftain/Challenger!  It fires a semi-combustible cased round, whereas the Chieftain/Challenger fires a bagged separately loaded round.  The Indian gun, is IIRC based on the German 120mm gun with the usual "Indian" flavours which of course will make it incompatible with the German gun!   :o

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2016, 04:02:13 PM »
Interesting......

Does this list look right, though?

Guess it also potentially answers the question if Conway tank destroyer would have had access to APDS ammunition......
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 04:30:05 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2016, 07:01:41 PM »
Interesting......

Does this list look right, though?

Guess it also potentially answers the question if Conway tank destroyer would have had access to APDS ammunition......


Did you read the replies?

Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetrationvalues often is wellguarded secrets..

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2016, 12:40:56 PM »
Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetrationvalues often is wellguarded secrets..

I'll take agreement of this statement as a "no" (as in the list doesn't look right).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 01:32:43 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2016, 12:58:04 PM »
Quote
doubt these figures are near the real values since real amor and penetration values often is well guarded secrets..

I'll take agreement of this statement as a "no".

No, I agree with that statement.  The penetrations don't have the hardness of the armour, the angle of strike or the hardness of the round being used mentioned.  I also have a few problems with some of the estimates which are mentioned.   I note that they more than likely theoretical rather than practical penetrations...

Offline Marderman

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2016, 04:05:45 PM »
Hello,
yesterday my Marksman arrived from asia. But I don´t build him on die chieftain. I´m a friend of german build vehicles. So I will put him on the Leo2 (real vehicle in Finnland) or the Leo1 (test vehicle germany).




But the kit includes this option:
"Whaf if"- Berlinbrigade?


Didi

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2016, 05:11:18 AM »
Those Finnish Marksman are quite attractive:



They have also had the turrets on T-55 hulls:



If anyone is interested, the turret was designed to go on multiple hulls (thus creating plenty of whiffs for you):






All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Marderman

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2016, 03:53:11 PM »
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2016, 01:47:33 AM »
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.

No problem - the tease within it is the reference to Leopard III ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2016, 11:37:16 AM »
Thank you to show the advertising brochure.

No problem - the tease within it is the reference to Leopard III ;)

Was just going to comment on that.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2016, 07:39:46 AM »
ERA?

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2016, 10:46:46 AM »
ERA?




Quote
It can be fitted with ROMOR-A explosive reactive armor.

[Source]

Quote
Other prototypes

Outside the initial production prototypes PP1, G1 and GT, a mine clearer version kit was developed, as well as the Chieftain Concept Test Rig, the Chieftain SID (modifications set to reduce its signature), another tested the ROMOR-A armour kit, the Varma ERA set, or to test the Vickers/Air-Log Ltd Hydrostrut suspension.

[Source]

However, there is no evidence I am aware of it having been done so, except that picture of a model.  It was fitted to Centurions and Challengers though, apparently although I don't think I've ever seen a picture of it on either vehicle.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 10:52:35 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline dy031101

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2016, 12:53:07 PM »
...... maybe even Iranian development of Chieftain with Ukrainian or Chinese 125mm gun......?


My attempt at imagining how it might look like; the result has a longer gun overhang.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 11:17:24 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Gingie

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2016, 04:48:45 AM »
Challenger 2 "Export" Greek camouflage


Offline Gingie

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Re: Chieftain and Challenger Tank Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2016, 01:13:33 AM »
That's a weird coincidence, I just read an article in this month's Military Modelcraft International about Cold War A.A. tanks, and there are a fair few photos of the Sabre turret in it.