Anti-Helicopter Fighters

[Kerick]

Biggest problem for the Marines was the non folding wings and an airframe not built for the punishment of carrier ops. It would be an interesting whiff. Plus a new nose with a radome. Of course firing the 30mm might shake the electronics apart!

[Diamondback]

If memory serves, there's a manufacturing joint at about the kneecap where the outer wing unit attaches to the center section... it shouldn't be too hard to add a fold. Stick a small, ruggedized AESA up there and you're in business...

Or there's Evan's Gunfighter concept, hanging gun pods off of Stations 4, 6 and 8...

[Kerick]

Just outside the main gear pods always seemed the logical place to me. I believe others have mentioned it. Add a hook of course.
If you really want to get crazy use the wings from an S-3 to increase the transit speed to the target areas.

[Volkodav]

Add to the list, Hawk 100, 200, Goshawk, Alfa Jet, AMX, Gripen.

How about a USMC Goshawk / Hawk 200 hybrid and a US Army F-20.

[Rickshaw]

The ultimate anti-helicopter fighter - The BAE SABA:




As built by Rafael over at what-if models:

[Volkodav]

I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere before.

[Kerick]

How about one of these?!!! I'd like one just for the air show circuit.

Turbofan Killer Bee: Rutan ARES "Mudfighter" for U.S. Army Close Air Support

[taiidantomcat]

Just remember, Helicopters can fight back 

[Diamondback]

Not as well with some 30mm duranium hot-dogs in the Meat Locker or engine-room...

[deathjester]

Problem with the helos is the enormous expense, and the long maintenance hours for every flight hour, not to mention the longer training for the crew, hot and high problems....

[Diamondback]

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

[Weaver]

The ultimate anti-helicopter fighter - The BAE SABA:

There were other versions of that.

One had a twin-boom pusher layout, which didn't need FBW but wasn't as agile.

One was like a stubby jet trainer with a high-bypass turbofan in the fuselage.

Two others had low-bypass turbofans and a low delta wing of varying types, with a flying-saucer-shaped turret under the centre. One version had guns in the turret, another had hyper-velocity rockets fired from magazine-fed launchers. Both versions had multiple EO sensors around the airframe liniked to a helmet-mounted sight.

[taiidantomcat]

Not as well with some 30mm duranium hot-dogs in the Meat Locker or engine-room...

That cuts both ways.  which was my point. I wouldn't want to take an Apache Block III, Saraf, or Zulu Cobra on in a prop job with weapons of equal range. but thats just me.

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

Thats true, but you aren't taking on novices either. Providing they know you are in the area, A good pilot and gunner team can make you work for every shot and deal out some of their own as well, that spread work load helps and Some of these high time guys can do stuff in helicopters you wouldn't believe.

I'm just saying the latest attack helos aren't skeet, no matter the cost or maint needed. If we are talking about Air to Air combat with a good crew that knows what its doing they may kill you back or at least force a draw. All things being equal we are generally talking about guns of similar calibers, (most fixed wing don't have turrets though) and similar AAMs.

A red bull Racer with armor, chaff/flare, black boxes, and 700 lbs of weapons?... I'd take the the helicopter.  An A-10 with AMRAAMs and a radar to use them? I'd take the A-10.   :)

Just sayin

[Diamondback]

True--it's easy for the armchair sorts (which I include myself as one of) to forget that combat aviation is inherently a risky business, and the other side always gets a vote on the outcome too.

Hence the argument that an A-10, with some minor modification, added avionics and rearming, is basically the ideal heli-buster. Load it up with LAU-115C adapters bearing LAU-128 rails with ALE-58 countermeasure dispensers fitted like on some Guard Eagles... additional expendables plus the load of AAM's.

[deathjester]

Well, we could argue the toss about this all we like - but, as an idea, does anyone know a combat helicopter pilot, and or a fixed wing combat pilot?  Then we could ask their opinions!

[Diamondback]

Well, an old college prof used to fly F-106's and also flew Bricks in Nam--I'll ask him for thoughts from the fixed-wing side and let you know if I get a reply.

[deathjester]

Excellent!  That's a great start - anyone else?

[taiidantomcat]

Excellent!  That's a great start - anyone else?

I asked a friend of mine who flies Hueys: "I think a clever helicopter  crew could win, but as much I would like to with the helicopter, I think all things being equal I would have to go with the Texan II. That aircraft has more energy going into the fight. The only way the helo could win is if they used the terrain and smaller turning radius to their advantage. "

I'm just trying to say Helos may not be sitting ducks  :) They would need help with the terrain though. Engaging in a flat desert or plain would not be helpful to the helicopter. I think a helicopter crew would be smart enough not to run knowing they couldn't win that race, so they would try to make a stand, before attempting to hide or escape. They do have a few tricks up their sleeves, but not for any kind of duration, I think if the helo didn't win, or at least lose its attacker in the first minute, then the jig is up. Its not going to be a long turning battle with circling knife hands at the debrief LOL

Hope that helps clarify a bit.  :) I think anything that flies fast enough to make slashing attacks and exit at a speed that takes it out of the Aim-9s envelope though is going to win pretty easily.

[GTX_Admin]

Actually the A-10 with its 30mm and a snap shoot gunsight would be perfect.

A-10 + GAU-8 for anti-helicopter missions = significant overkill.

[GTX_Admin]

Sounds like the A-10 is really more what the JSF program needed to be other than STOVL capability for the Jarheads...

You are kidding aren't you?

[GTX_Admin]

Add to the list, Hawk 100, 200, Goshawk, Alfa Jet, AMX, Gripen.

How about a USMC Goshawk / Hawk 200 hybrid and a US Army F-20.

All mostly way too fast…and having such aircraft operate low and slow gets nasty.

[GTX_Admin]

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

Funnily enough, trained helicopter pilots don't seem to have that problem...

[Kerick]

Perhaps but don't forget the extended range of the 30mm.
Then there was the F-15E Strike Eagle crew that bagged an Iraqi helicopter with a laser guided bomb. They targeted the bomb to hit the ground below the helicopter and the shrapnel did the rest.

[GTX_Admin]

These days you have the following options as I see it:

• If you have dedicated fighters (fast movers that is) - let them fly at altitude and simply use missiles such as AIM-120 to knock off the helicopters from afar without getting 'dirty';
• If you really need to get down and dirty, let another helicopter do it.  It doesn't need to be a dedicated design either - a small utility helicopter (such as a Eurocopter AS365/EC145 or equivalent  incl smaller) armed with a podded cannon/minigun and/or Starstreak/Stinger has all the performance you really need for most missions of this type and can also be used for other roles when not hunting helicopters; or
• If all else fails, let the ground forces take the problem out using SAMs/guns.

[GTX_Admin]

Of course, there is also always the 'organic' option :