Anti-Helicopter Fighters

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

[Volkodav]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Battle field air superiority including anti helicopter fighter duties was one of the missions the French assigned to their Jaguars 

[Kerick]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Well, we've had plenty of warbirds converted to racers. Now its time to convert a racer to a war bird. Of course these type of racers are not meant to carry any payload and fuel is probably limited to the amount needed for the race. This is whif world, An enlarged Pitts with drop tanks and 25mm cannon?

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Battle field air superiority including anti helicopter fighter duties was one of the missions the French assigned to their Jaguars 

And the Italians assigned it to the G.91PANs of the Frecce Tricolori!

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Well, we've had plenty of warbirds converted to racers. Now its time to convert a racer to a war bird. Of course these type of racers are not meant to carry any payload and fuel is probably limited to the amount needed for the race. This is whif world, An enlarged Pitts with drop tanks and 25mm cannon?

The idea weapon if you could carry the weight would be the Mauser RMK-30 recoilless autocannon.

Alternatively, how about a small pod of those laser-guided 70mm rockets?

[Diamondback]

Actually, it seems to me this might be a good niche for reactivating WWII fighter designs. Maybe a turboprop P-51?

Or, hell, as Evan and I have discussed jury-rig a CH-53E or CH-47 with A-10 wings and a suitable radar and rack up a metric buttload of AIM-9X or AMRAAM.

[GTX_Admin]

Screw the re-activated fighter idea - simply go with something akin to the EMB-314:

[Diamondback]

Also possible--for clarity, I wasn't thinking "haul the USAFM collection back to duty" but more "dust off and modernize existing designs".

Oh, heck... put a radar on a Hog and load it up with DRA's and AMRAAMs, Sidewinders or AAM's. Or maybe 19-shot launchers full of the new laser-guided Hydra-70s mentioned above... hell, maybe even an AAM Helfire/Brimstone derivative... a dual-target AAM/AGM version with quad-rail launchers on most stations would given A-10 squadron a good range of capability no matter what kind of armored/air-cav oppo you're facing.

[GTX_Admin]

using derivatives of existing turboprops (e.g. EMB-314 or AT-6B) would be more cost effective (both to acquire and operate) is one needed such a specialised capability.  Or better yet, just arm some helicopters.

[jcf]

Yep, the best helicopter fighter would be a faster helicopter or an XV-15. 

[Diamondback]

Conceded.

Alternatively, there are buttloads of old early jets around boneyards that could conceivably be overhauled... the 1st and 2nd-gen fighters (read: "pre-supersonic and thus militarily pre-historic") imght be suitable here too. Faster getting to the battle area than another chopper, not so fast they can't engage the target... they just need newer engines and modern avionics like laser-designator. The Sabre Dog might have found success in this niche...

[GTX_Admin]

Yep, the best helicopter fighter would be a faster helicopter or an XV-15. 

Maybe a Lynx/Wildcat with Starstreak or Stingers?

[GTX_Admin]

or maybe a modern day equivalent of the cannon armed Gazelle:



or…

[Volkodav]

using derivatives of existing turboprops (e.g. EMB-314 or AT-6B) would be more cost effective (both to acquire and operate) is one needed such a specialised capability.  Or better yet, just arm some helicopters.

Wasn't Star Streak originally intended to have a helo to helo version with a twin mount being designed for Apache and Cobra wing tips?  Speaking of Cobra isn't it Sidewinder capable?

[deathjester]

Yes, Cobra can carry and fire Sidewinder - the only problem is the HUGE plume of smoke whenever you chuck one at someone!

[kitnut617]

I thought that was 'Sidearm' ---

[Diamondback]

I thought that was 'Sidearm' ---

SideARM was an anti-radar conversion, based on an early and swiftly-retired SARH Sidewinder variant, IIRC.

[Kerick]

Actually the A-10 with its 30mm and a snap shoot gunsight would be perfect. I dare even a Hind to withstand those bullets!
When attacking a chopper maneuverability is crucial. I witnessed a CH-53 pull some amazing moves simulating a Hind during an exercise. I imagine something a little smaller would be excellent. There was much discussion in the Air Force and Army circles during the 70s and 80s about how the A-10 could cover this need.

[Diamondback]

Six words: "Chopper Popper," 706th TFS, Desert Storm. One of two helo-killer Hogs in ODS, and in both cases there wasn't enough LEFT of the chopper to positively ID, though they THINK one was a Bo105.

Set Stn 11 aside for ECM, 1 for a DRA with Sidewinders and 6 for a drop-tank which sadly blocks 5 and 7, and that leaves 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 10 for Hellfire launchers (24 choppers killed if one-shot pops and all work), more DRA's (12, ditto) or laser-guided rocket-pods (up to 57 assuming 2 rockets per, same caveats). Maybe add a new C/L station ahead of 6 for a LITENING or Sniper-XR mounted to clear tank and nose LG. Better yet, do an A-10B-as-conceived style mounting Sniper-XR and LANTIRN-Nav in extended "kneecaps"...

OR... is there enough clearance to put two rocket pods on 5/7 with a targeting pod nestled between on 6? If so, move the pods inboard and put gasbags on 4/8--same punch with more loiter time.

[Kerick]

Actually, it seems to me this might be a good niche for reactivating WWII fighter designs. Maybe a turboprop P-51?

Or, hell, as Evan and I have discussed jury-rig a CH-53E or CH-47 with A-10 wings and a suitable radar and rack up a metric buttload of AIM-9X or AMRAAM.

Look up the Piper Enforcer. A slightly enlarged turbo version of the P-51. Piper tried to sell it to the Air Force as a light tank buster but it never got beyond testing. The anti Hind role might have been more appropriate.

[Diamondback]

I remember it... it's exactly what I was thinking of with that idea. :)

And re '53s roleplaying Hinds, I seem to recall old HH-3 Jolly Greens in the same role doing mock-gunfighting with fighters and WINNING, hence the Pave Low community's distinctive red scarves. (Since they were roleplaying Russkies, they played Russian music, painted Cyrillic phrases on everything and started wearing red scarves... and then the tradition spread.)

[Kerick]

I don't know why but Piper kept the six 0.50 cal M-2s in the wings. I thought an upgrade to four 20mm would be better. Two 25mm chain guns would be really cool. Some stingers under the wings would be extra punch.

How about a scale-o-rama Pits Special in 1/48th made to look like 1/72nd? Sending in a bi plane would drive the generals nuts but I bet the pilots would learn to love it really quick.

[Diamondback]

Here's the kicker... I seem to recall the Jollies faced even early Tomcats and Eagles in that exercise, and still managed to best 'em. My memory may be fuzzy, though... we all know how Special Ops tales can be like fish stories.

[Kerick]

That's the deal with an aircraft that's slower but more maneuverable. It can do a bat turn and bite you real quick. A-10s would do that to over-confident fighter jocks all the time. The kill rate of A-10s would have been even higher if they would have had the snap shoot gunsight from the beginning.

[Diamondback]

Sounds like the A-10 is really more what the JSF program needed to be other than STOVL capability for the Jarheads... OTOH, maybe its unimproved-field capability is close enough.

Stick an attack radar on, develop an Omnivore Hellfire/Brimstone and rack 'em up, and whether tank, plane or chopper it should turn in a decent showing. Bonus, most fighters aren't equipped with ECM against Millimetric Wave radar IIRC... maybe beef it up a little on the gear for carrier capability.

[Kerick]

Biggest problem for the Marines was the non folding wings and an airframe not built for the punishment of carrier ops. It would be an interesting whiff. Plus a new nose with a radome. Of course firing the 30mm might shake the electronics apart!

[Diamondback]

If memory serves, there's a manufacturing joint at about the kneecap where the outer wing unit attaches to the center section... it shouldn't be too hard to add a fold. Stick a small, ruggedized AESA up there and you're in business...

Or there's Evan's Gunfighter concept, hanging gun pods off of Stations 4, 6 and 8...

[Kerick]

Just outside the main gear pods always seemed the logical place to me. I believe others have mentioned it. Add a hook of course.
If you really want to get crazy use the wings from an S-3 to increase the transit speed to the target areas.

[Volkodav]

Add to the list, Hawk 100, 200, Goshawk, Alfa Jet, AMX, Gripen.

How about a USMC Goshawk / Hawk 200 hybrid and a US Army F-20.

[Rickshaw]

The ultimate anti-helicopter fighter - The BAE SABA:




As built by Rafael over at what-if models:

[Volkodav]

I vaguely remember seeing that somewhere before.

[Kerick]

How about one of these?!!! I'd like one just for the air show circuit.

Turbofan Killer Bee: Rutan ARES "Mudfighter" for U.S. Army Close Air Support

[taiidantomcat]

Just remember, Helicopters can fight back 

[Diamondback]

Not as well with some 30mm duranium hot-dogs in the Meat Locker or engine-room...

[deathjester]

Problem with the helos is the enormous expense, and the long maintenance hours for every flight hour, not to mention the longer training for the crew, hot and high problems....

[Diamondback]

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

[Weaver]

The ultimate anti-helicopter fighter - The BAE SABA:

There were other versions of that.

One had a twin-boom pusher layout, which didn't need FBW but wasn't as agile.

One was like a stubby jet trainer with a high-bypass turbofan in the fuselage.

Two others had low-bypass turbofans and a low delta wing of varying types, with a flying-saucer-shaped turret under the centre. One version had guns in the turret, another had hyper-velocity rockets fired from magazine-fed launchers. Both versions had multiple EO sensors around the airframe liniked to a helmet-mounted sight.

[taiidantomcat]

Not as well with some 30mm duranium hot-dogs in the Meat Locker or engine-room...

That cuts both ways.  which was my point. I wouldn't want to take an Apache Block III, Saraf, or Zulu Cobra on in a prop job with weapons of equal range. but thats just me.

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

Thats true, but you aren't taking on novices either. Providing they know you are in the area, A good pilot and gunner team can make you work for every shot and deal out some of their own as well, that spread work load helps and Some of these high time guys can do stuff in helicopters you wouldn't believe.

I'm just saying the latest attack helos aren't skeet, no matter the cost or maint needed. If we are talking about Air to Air combat with a good crew that knows what its doing they may kill you back or at least force a draw. All things being equal we are generally talking about guns of similar calibers, (most fixed wing don't have turrets though) and similar AAMs.

A red bull Racer with armor, chaff/flare, black boxes, and 700 lbs of weapons?... I'd take the the helicopter.  An A-10 with AMRAAMs and a radar to use them? I'd take the A-10.   :)

Just sayin

[Diamondback]

True--it's easy for the armchair sorts (which I include myself as one of) to forget that combat aviation is inherently a risky business, and the other side always gets a vote on the outcome too.

Hence the argument that an A-10, with some minor modification, added avionics and rearming, is basically the ideal heli-buster. Load it up with LAU-115C adapters bearing LAU-128 rails with ALE-58 countermeasure dispensers fitted like on some Guard Eagles... additional expendables plus the load of AAM's.

[deathjester]

Well, we could argue the toss about this all we like - but, as an idea, does anyone know a combat helicopter pilot, and or a fixed wing combat pilot?  Then we could ask their opinions!

[Diamondback]

Well, an old college prof used to fly F-106's and also flew Bricks in Nam--I'll ask him for thoughts from the fixed-wing side and let you know if I get a reply.

[deathjester]

Excellent!  That's a great start - anyone else?

[taiidantomcat]

Excellent!  That's a great start - anyone else?

I asked a friend of mine who flies Hueys: "I think a clever helicopter  crew could win, but as much I would like to with the helicopter, I think all things being equal I would have to go with the Texan II. That aircraft has more energy going into the fight. The only way the helo could win is if they used the terrain and smaller turning radius to their advantage. "

I'm just trying to say Helos may not be sitting ducks  :) They would need help with the terrain though. Engaging in a flat desert or plain would not be helpful to the helicopter. I think a helicopter crew would be smart enough not to run knowing they couldn't win that race, so they would try to make a stand, before attempting to hide or escape. They do have a few tricks up their sleeves, but not for any kind of duration, I think if the helo didn't win, or at least lose its attacker in the first minute, then the jig is up. Its not going to be a long turning battle with circling knife hands at the debrief LOL

Hope that helps clarify a bit.  :) I think anything that flies fast enough to make slashing attacks and exit at a speed that takes it out of the Aim-9s envelope though is going to win pretty easily.

[GTX_Admin]

Actually the A-10 with its 30mm and a snap shoot gunsight would be perfect.

A-10 + GAU-8 for anti-helicopter missions = significant overkill.

[GTX_Admin]

Sounds like the A-10 is really more what the JSF program needed to be other than STOVL capability for the Jarheads...

You are kidding aren't you?

[GTX_Admin]

Add to the list, Hawk 100, 200, Goshawk, Alfa Jet, AMX, Gripen.

How about a USMC Goshawk / Hawk 200 hybrid and a US Army F-20.

All mostly way too fast…and having such aircraft operate low and slow gets nasty.

[GTX_Admin]

And the fact that helos are inherently both more difficult and dangerous to fly... I'm pretty good with most jets in the sim, but EVERY time I try to fly a chopper I prang it.

Funnily enough, trained helicopter pilots don't seem to have that problem...

[Kerick]

Perhaps but don't forget the extended range of the 30mm.
Then there was the F-15E Strike Eagle crew that bagged an Iraqi helicopter with a laser guided bomb. They targeted the bomb to hit the ground below the helicopter and the shrapnel did the rest.

[GTX_Admin]

These days you have the following options as I see it:

• If you have dedicated fighters (fast movers that is) - let them fly at altitude and simply use missiles such as AIM-120 to knock off the helicopters from afar without getting 'dirty';
• If you really need to get down and dirty, let another helicopter do it.  It doesn't need to be a dedicated design either - a small utility helicopter (such as a Eurocopter AS365/EC145 or equivalent  incl smaller) armed with a podded cannon/minigun and/or Starstreak/Stinger has all the performance you really need for most missions of this type and can also be used for other roles when not hunting helicopters; or
• If all else fails, let the ground forces take the problem out using SAMs/guns.

[GTX_Admin]

Of course, there is also always the 'organic' option :

[deathjester]

Of course, there is also always the 'organic' option :

What's that then?  A hail of Homing Pigeons, to inflict mass birdstrikes!?!

[Diamondback]

Hey, it worked for the Joneses...

[GTX_Admin]

Hey, it worked for the Joneses...

 

[Diamondback]

Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, remember? :p

Geez, tough crowd tonight... *ducks flying tomato*

[GTX_Admin]

Doh!

[taiidantomcat]

Hey, it worked for the Joneses...

HA!! I got it!  :)

I had forgotten about that!

[Weaver]

The big difficulty for all helo crews is seeing the attack coming: I can't think of any helo that has decent visibility upwards and backwards.

Wern't there some instances of Iranian Cobras taking on Iraqi jets in the 1980s?

[Logan Hartke]

Supposedly an Iraqi Mi-24 Hind shot down an F-4 Phantom during the Iran-Iraq War.

Cheers,

Logan

[GTX_Admin]

The big difficulty for all helo crews is seeing the attack coming: I can't think of any helo that has decent visibility upwards and backwards.

It would be interesting to see a helicopter fitted with something akin to the F-35's EO DAS.

More to the point though, that is part of the reason why helicopters flying a combat mission in an area where they might expect aerial opposition (i.e. not Afghanistan) don't simply fly straight and level.

[Vuk]

How about one of these?!!! I'd like one just for the air show circuit.
Turbofan Killer Bee: Rutan ARES "Mudfighter" for U.S. Army Close Air Support

I always like this little bird... Here's a big pic.

[Diamondback]

It would be interesting to see a helicopter fitted with something akin to the F-35's EO DAS.

Well, that IS one of the features planned to go onto my self-aware MH-53N build... then again, as I write it the aircraft's AI HAS been redesigning itself to be able to take on Fifth Gen fighters and regularly win. (It should be noted that on that bird the inhumanly-fast response time plus the "cloaking device" WOULD be a rather powerful equalizer if not outright unfair advantage...)

[deathjester]

The big difficulty for all helo crews is seeing the attack coming: I can't think of any helo that has decent visibility upwards and backwards.

Wern't there some instances of Iranian Cobras taking on Iraqi jets in the 1980s?

That's what I was thinking - their all round visibilty is somewhat compromised, leaving them open to high angle attack from above/behind.

BTW, has anyone any more info about the Cobra vs jet engagements?  I have a book on the Cobra, but it doesn't mention any of that!

[Diamondback]

So, here's a response from a gun-board buddy who used to be a Dragonfly driver, who I sent the link to this thread:

I personally don't have any expertise in such matters, other than being sure that almost any helicopter would be severely out-matched by any modern fighter. The huge speed differential wouldn't make much difference...after all, fighters routinely strafe stationary ground targets, so a slow-moving chopper wouldn't present a problem.

That having been said, there are two famous examples of straight-wing attack jets shooting down slower aircraft. On 15 Feb 1991 an A-10 shot down an Iraqi MI-8 helicopter. (The day before, an F-15E dropped a laser-guided bomb on a helicopter idling on the ground. Before the bomb hit, the helicopter lifted off, and the bomb destroyed it in mid air.)

A few years ago, a Peruvian A-37 shot down a missionary aircraft that had been mistaken for a drug runner.

[GTX_Admin]

I will put this in here in lieu of any other suitable location:  combat intermeshing rotor helicopter:

[elmayerle]

I will put this in here in lieu of any other suitable location:  combat intermeshing rotor helicopter:

Start by mixing AV-8B with H-43 and build from there.  Since the only H-43 kit is in 1/32, you could either scaleorama it down to 1/48 or use it with a 1/32 AV-8B kit; I like the first option better and it is definitely the more affordable one.

[GTX_Admin]

Since the only H-43 kit is in 1/32

You were saying?

[jcf]

The box labelling is wrong, that Testors kit is the old Hawk 1/32 H-43. 

[upnorth]

I wonder how something like the SIAI SF.260 would work in the role.

It's still in production and available in turboprop as well as piston versions.

It can be fitted with gun and rocket pods. It's aerboatic and would present a quite small target itself.

The second seat could be pulled out and the space used for extra fuel or avionics.

It might not be able to take the more heavily armored, dedicated gunships, but there's a whole lot of lighter helicopters out there that I imagine would be in tough against it.

[mrvr6]

I will put this in here in lieu of any other suitable location:  combat intermeshing rotor helicopter:

Start by mixing AV-8B with H-43 and build from there.  Since the only H-43 kit is in 1/32, you could either scaleorama it down to 1/48 or use it with a 1/32 AV-8B kit; I like the first option better and it is definitely the more affordable one.

that has a hint of cheyene dropship from aliens imo

[GTX_Admin]

The box labelling is wrong, that Testors kit is the old Hawk 1/32 H-43. 

Ok - fair enough