Author Topic: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 115105 times)

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2013, 06:51:09 AM »
you'd be better off with a SV-22.  The A609 structural materials and finishes were not designed for a maritime environment while those of the V-22 were..

Can I hope to launch a S-2 off Vikramaditya's skijump?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2013, 06:54:31 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline finsrin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2013, 08:38:24 AM »
That is indeed an inspirational picture.
Looking for any of Gannet, Spiteful, Seafang, Sea Fury, Firefly, Sea Hornet.  Perhaps they are in hanger deck.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2013, 11:12:08 AM »
Are you wanting it to be western or eastern in origin or don't care?
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2013, 11:31:19 AM »
Western origin first.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2013, 03:25:20 PM »
First thought is a S-2T Turbo-Tracker with an upgraded turboprop.  My second thought would be to use an ASW  variant of an existing stol turboprop aircraft.  Alternatively, if you wanted something different but grounded in the real world, an operational ASW variant of NASA's QSTOL mod to the Buffalo.

Offline nils

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2013, 04:16:03 PM »
there's always the Yak-44  :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-44

on the bench:
-various models

on the drawing board:
-various 1/72 TinTin aircraft
-1/72 Eurocopter Tiger (Belgian Army)
-various other 1/72 and 1/144 aircraft

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2013, 05:04:54 PM »
Ive got a doosy I have been toying with for over 20 years, changed a lot of times and still evolving as I learn more and revisit previous ideas realising they were just silly.  A big part of it is an alternate properly funded, properly established 1920's to date RAN FAA.

Slowly, very slowly actually, I have been building a collection of kits for this alternate RAN / RAN FAA.  There will be 1/700 ships and air groups as well as 1/72 and 1/48 aircraft.  Even though I started this years ago (late 80s) I have very little to show for it, all of the models I had completed have been lost, damaged or destroyed, many more are incomplete and none of my more recent efforts have been finished yet.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2013, 09:12:44 PM »

The premise to this earlier, expanded RAN and RAN FAA is a notional enquiry, possibly a Royal Commission, held into the loss of so many Australian lives (over 60000 dead) during WWI.  Held during 1919 with the express intent of destroying the reputation and political career of one William Hughes (he had many enemies on both sides of the political spectrum) poor wording led to it becoming an in-depth examination of lessons learnt from the conflict and the foundation of one of the most detailed and progressive strategic policies on defence the world has ever seen.

Key elements covered included:
•   An independent airforce responsible for
o   Defence of Australia from strategic attack from the air
o   Aerial policing and initial defence of Australian territories
o   Establishment, maintenance and defence of a strategic aerial transport system.
o   Training of all Australian military air and ground crew
o   Certification, acceptance  and safety of all Australian military aircraft
•   Army
o   Formation of an Australian Regular Army
o   Motorisation of the new regular army and current militia
o   Formation of an armoured corps
o   Formation of a tactical air corps
o   Replacement of heavy artillery with tactical airpower
•   Navy
o   Formally becoming a separate entity from the RN while maintaining close links
o   Formation of a Fleet Air Arm
o   Acquisition of aircraft carriers
o   Rebuilding and expanding the submarine arm
o   Formation of a paramilitary coast guard
•   Establishment of multi service capabilities and doctrines, including training and development cadres.
o   Tri service tactical air power school
o   Marine warfare school
o   Airborne warfare school

Thinking to date of what could happen, obviously not all of the options but a mix.
•   Possible conversion of Indefatigable class BC into carrier in 1920's
•   Light carrier(s) based on County class cruiser in late 20's early 30's. 
•   An Ark Royal (and a Vanguard) ordered from the UK in the late 30's to counter the Japanese threat, initially serving with the RN with the out break of war but returning to Australia following Pearl Harbour.
•   Updated County class CVLs continue to be built through war
•   Implacable and Indefatigable transferred to RAN in 1945
•   Licence built Audacious or Malta class carriers built in Australia post war
•   Updated County Class CVLs modernised/completed to operate early generation jets
•   Implacable and Indefatigable modernised in Australia from mid 50's
•   Updated County Class CVLs modified into a variety of roles, LHP, CVH (ASW), CVHG, or sold to other navies.
•   Clemenceau selected as new CVL
•   CVA01 selected as new fleet carrier design
•   An Essex purchased late 60s, to make up for cancellation of CVA01
•   Victorious, Hermes and/or Eagle purchased early 70s to make up for cancellation of CVA01
•   Invincible design selected as basis of County class CVL replacement, design modified post Falkands built in Australia
•   Spruance APD and DDH replaces Modified County LPH, CVH, CVHG with Aust Invincibles swung into LPH role as required to support.
•   CVV selected to replace 40's and 50's built fleet carriers - cancelled, current ships modernised, life extended / canalised, based on condition.
•   Modified CdeG built in Australia, smaller than needed not really successful
•   Australia full partner in CVF, CTOL version to replace CVA's, STOVL version to replace CVL, Invincibles, Spruances.
These ideas mean almost any combination of carrier aircraft (real, conceptual or should have been) could be employed from their decks at various eras.

It gets even more fun when I start thinking about escorts which could have been built in Australia to modified or even indigenous designs.

The RAAF and Army threads are just as bad.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2013, 04:18:02 AM »
Maybe something akin to a BN AEW Defender?

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2013, 04:58:07 AM »
Maybe something akin to a BN AEW Defender?

Does its Trislander sibling possess comparable takeoff and landing performance?
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 05:27:20 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2013, 05:03:18 AM »
I believe so...just with greater payload.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2013, 05:35:30 AM »
I believe so...just with greater payload.

How would its extra length factor into its footprint on deck compared to the AEW Defender?  I found it easier to imagine using the short nose version as a basis though.

Also, how is its performance at altitude compared to the Sea King?  Could the greater payload also be translated into high-altitude performance aid somehow?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 02:27:29 PM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2013, 02:24:31 PM »
The one depicted here doesn't seem all that complicated to untrained eyes...... I wonder what its advantages and weaknesses would be when used on a full-blown military aviation ship (aircraft carrier and the likes) as an alternative to steam catapult- if it has serious weaknesses, would non-access to steam catapult have potentially justified the adoption of rocket-driven catapults?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2013, 03:16:28 PM »
Well there was this cartridge based launch system by AVPRO instead of a steam one:


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Caveman

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #64 on: March 03, 2013, 02:03:20 AM »
I believe walruses etc were launched using existing ships main gun cartridges

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #65 on: March 03, 2013, 07:37:06 AM »
Well there was this cartridge based launch system by AVPRO instead of a steam one...
I believe walruses etc were launched using existing ships main gun cartridges

...... yeah, forgot that one.

I'm a bit mixed up in terms of how that would work though.  The drawing shows that the caseless projectile would catch the nose landing gear of the airplane (the system is to launch the airplane, after all).  But if it functions like a large cannon, wouldn't any opening in any place of the system's "barrel/chamber" other than the muzzle a bad thing?  Or am I missing something here?
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #66 on: March 03, 2013, 07:39:52 AM »
The AVPRO ideas were just that, ideas.  They made lots of nice images but not a lot (if any) of engineering behind them.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #67 on: March 04, 2013, 10:27:41 AM »
A quick question: would an AEW version of the BN Defender or Trilander be, by your estimation, be able to take off from the deck of a Kiev class cruiser without the use of skijump?

Thanks in advance.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Caveman

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2013, 05:25:30 AM »
I guess that depends on how fast a Kiev class cruiser can go!

Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2013, 05:30:01 AM »
I guess that depends on how fast a Kiev class cruiser can go!

How fast does it need to when launching the STOL?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 05:33:03 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Caveman

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2013, 06:54:27 AM »
[TLDR see bottom for conclusion]

Well thanks to wikipedia i now know that:
The take off run for a defender is 320m
And that its "minimum control" speed is 45 mph.

If you assume a constant acceleration for the takeoff run (i know drag is proportional to V^2 but it makes the maths easier...) you can get a value for the acceleration.

A small amount of fiddling will show that the takeoff distance can be described as:

v1=(da-1)/v2

where d is distance, v2 takeoff speed, v1 speed of the ship (and thus speed at the start of the takeoff run) and a acceleration

so you have a linear relationship between d and v1.

 :icon_sleep:  wake up at the back there!

now the Kiev  O0 is 273 m long and the flight deck is approx 2/3 the ship length = 180 (about)

therefore the ship needs to move at approx

(180*1.25-1)/20 = 11.2m/s = 21.77kts

apparently the ship can do 30 odd kts so based on that garbage above yes.   :)

However...

That takeoff run will take up the entire flight deck with no margin.
Acceleration will not be linear, it will reduce with airspeed.
The data was for a stock Defender and I imagine that it was at a fairly light weight. I would imagine that the extra weight of the radar will increase the stall speed and the drag from the radome will reduce the acceleration...

In conclusion, your guess is as good as mine  ???


Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2013, 07:23:55 AM »
Yeah, thus I figured that I might need a Trilander frame.

Looks like that opinion has just been reinforced......
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Caveman

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2013, 07:46:26 AM »
Not sure that the trislander is actually better in that respect

takeoff distance 411m

http://www.buyplanesforsale.com/aircraft/britten-norman/bn-2a-iii-trislander/510/

Offline AGRA

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2013, 07:28:03 AM »
I'm brainstorming on a fictional ship with aviation facility comparable to that of the upcoming Indian carrier.  I am wondering, though, if I'd be stuck with helo-based AEW platforms, or if there is actually some fixed-wing STOL transport type that has potential as a basis......


What about the Yakolev MADCAP? It actually flew, is a STOL aircraft and is an AEW aircraft.



Offline dy031101

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Re: Aircraft Carrier Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #74 on: March 26, 2013, 11:17:04 AM »
What about the Antonov MADCAP? It actually flew, is a STOL aircraft and is an AEW aircraft.


Perhaps.  I find the turbojet booster concept interesting, too.

The brainstorming ended up leading to this.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?