Author Topic: Apophenia's Offerings  (Read 917597 times)

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2375 on: November 16, 2019, 12:44:46 PM »
Cheers Evan!

EH: As promised, ... more Curtissesses for the U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB:
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8843.0
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2376 on: November 17, 2019, 03:41:08 AM »
Those Martins sure look good in pre-war colors!

You've really out-done yourself on these natural metal beauties!

I wonder if they ever developed an inline version...

Great stuff!

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2377 on: November 17, 2019, 06:05:21 AM »
Cheers Brian!

... I wonder if they ever developed an inline version...

Funny you should mention inlines. I found some images of the Martin Model 177 that Jon was talking about. Few details but it looks like twin Allisons to me. Probably gonna have to have a go at that RW M-177 proposal ;)
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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2378 on: November 17, 2019, 04:57:37 PM »
The 177A is the one with inlines, the larger 177 had radials.  ;)
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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actually is than they ever are about
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2379 on: November 18, 2019, 07:06:23 AM »
The 177A is the one with inlines, the larger 177 had radials.  ;)


Ah, good to know. Thanks Jon. Any idea what radial engines were to be used?

OT: Another entry in the U.S. Enters WWII Early (1940) GB: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8843.msg162295
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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2380 on: November 19, 2019, 07:28:32 AM »
The Buttler and Griffith book states the engine type was unknown.

But here's a chart of the engines proposed for the Model 179, including the R-3350, so ...  ;):

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2381 on: November 19, 2019, 08:41:45 AM »
But here's a chart of the engines proposed for the Model 179, including the R-3350, so ...

So, anything so long as its BIG!  ;D  Cheers Jon!

I decided to have a go at the inline-engined M-177A attack bomber. I stuck fairly closely to the 3-view drawing on Secret Projects but used the nose glazing from the artist's impression (the glazing on the 3-view look too much like an A-20 for my liking). The rear cockpit is quite different between the 3-view and the artist's rendering. I went for the more prominent 3-view version ... just cuz' its so weird-looking!

Heaps of making up stuff to fill in the gaps (those forward cockpit openings, for example). Other than wheel placement, the undercarriage is pure invention (no details provided). Ditto for the bomb bays and any defensive weaponry. I thought that the big, honkin' tail bumper was a good touch - with that wheel placement, I'm guessing that the Model 177A was gonna need it  :o

Anyway, I find the Model 177A attractive ... in an odd sort of way. But also a puzzle. The rear cockpit is peculiar (was it have flexible guns pointing both forward and aft?). The forward cockpits are stranger still. Obviously the furthermost nose is for bomb-aiming. So, was the pilot stuck behind the bomb-aimer with scant view forward and the engines blocking any views to the sides? That'd be fun to fly!


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Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2382 on: November 20, 2019, 03:09:48 PM »
Something 167ish perhaps for layout.



« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 03:11:26 PM by jcf »
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2383 on: November 20, 2019, 03:15:10 PM »
Of course the 177A would have to be escorted by Bell Model 3 fighters.  ;D
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2384 on: November 21, 2019, 04:01:12 AM »
Whatever you do, don't let the fat guy (me) sit in the back!

It's got a real art deco look, apophenia! Talk about an engaging concept most excellently carried off!

Brian da Basher

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2385 on: November 22, 2019, 08:49:20 AM »
Of course the 177A would have to be escorted by Bell Model 3 fighters.  ;D


 ;D ;D ;D  Model 3 pilot and M-177A GIB will definitely feel the affinity!
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg121108#msg121108

Brian:  Ooo, I like your "art deco look" bit! And, yes, weight distribution is going to be tricky. Helpful if any of the heftier air gunners were willing to to take the bomb-aimers' course ;)
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2386 on: November 23, 2019, 11:56:09 AM »
Inspired by Frank3K's Belize Defence Force Jet Provost T.3 model:
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=vbtkp9suhcghdg5p97p95jjmn6&topic=8199.msg162340

Frank reports that the four ex-RAF T.3s arrived from the UK in late 1981 - just in time to engage the May 1982 incursion by Guatemalan forces. That posed a question: What happened next?

The well-worn Jet Provosts served on as the BDF's sole combat aircraft for a decade. With no obvious replacements available. In October 1989, Belizean Prime Minister George Price made an appeal at the  Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting at Kuala Lumpur. A response came from New Zealand's Prime Minister, Geoffrey Palmer. The RNZAF was soon to retire its fleet of BAC 167 Strikemaster Mk.88s - the armed attack derivative of Belize's in-service Jet Provost. After consulting with Lt-Gen Sir John Mace, the CDF in Wellington, Palmer offered Belize the donation of four Strikemaster upon their retirement from the RNZAF. [1]

New Zealand would not relinquish its Strikemasters until December 1992 but, in early 1991, BDF flight crews began exchange training with No. 14 Squadron RNZAF at Ohakea. In the Spring of 1993, four crated Strikemasters arrived by sea at the port of Belize City. [2] Three of the Mk.88s were re-assembled by seconded RNZAF personnel at Belize City Municipal Airport. Once tested and approved for operations, BDF crews flew their new mounts south to their new base at Placencia Airport. [3] After working up, the BDF Air Wing's newest unit, No. 1418 Flight, officially achieved full operational status on New Year's Day 1994 - to coincide with the disbanding of British Forces Belize.

Top Ex-RNZAF BAC Strikemaster Mk.88 in interim BDF markings, AB Placencia, Belize, January 1994

In the meantime, the BDF Air Wing's Jet Provost fleet had been reduced to two operational aircraft. 'JPs' 02 and 04 were grounded to act as spares for the operational aircraft. With the Strikemasters taking over the armed role, the Soviet rocket pods were removed from the 'JPs'. [4] Thereafter, the remaining two Jet Provosts alternated in the role of operational trainer for the Strikemasters.

Bottom BDF-AW Strikemaster Mk.88 forward deployed to Hector Silva airstrip outside Belmopan during the December 1998 border dispute with Guatemala. This aircraft has been refurbished and wears the new 'air superiority' grey finish.

_____________________________

[1] This required negotiations with Aermacchi which had taken some of the RNZAF Mk.88s in trade as part of New Zealand's MB339CB procurement.

[2] Re-numbered simply as 01-through-04, the former New Zealand serials for the donated Strikemasters were: NZ6362, NZ6363, NZ6370, and NZ6375/G.

[3] The fourth Strikemaster, NZ6375/G, was flown by RNZAF Hercules to Placencia where it was assembled  to act as an instructional airframe.

[4] The UB-20-80 rocket pods were redeployed with 1 Battalion where they acted as truck-mounted indirect fire support - mass-firings of S-8 rockets on exercises near the Guatemalan border serving as noisy demoralizers of opposing conscript troops.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2387 on: November 24, 2019, 01:53:33 AM »
You're hitting the sweet-spot of smaller air arms with Belize and that top one is a real stunner, apophenia!

What a treat to pop in on a Saturday and see more of your amazing art!

Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2388 on: November 24, 2019, 03:13:20 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2389 on: November 24, 2019, 03:41:44 AM »
I was looking for a good reason to get another copy of the excellent Airfix Provost/Strikemaster! Both look great - the air superiority gray especially. Although the top one, with the extra markings looks awesome, too.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2390 on: November 25, 2019, 12:10:18 PM »
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=8851.msg162407#msg162407

Jon has posted about the RW Martin Model 177 light attack bomber project. There are general similarities between the M-177 and the Model 177A project. Both have long, continuously-glazed noses and both are twin-tailled.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg162320#msg162320

By comparison with the Model 177A project, the Model 177's twin tails are shaped differently and the wings are lower-mounted. In the cse of the Model 177, those wings appear to be identical to those of the built Model 167 XA-22/Maryland. Other than the glazed noses, the fuselages are also rather different shapes.

The most obvious differences between these two unbuilt projects are that the Model 177A was for a liquid-cooled twin with a tricycle gear while the Model 177 had a more conservative, 'tail-dragger' undercarriage. There's nothing conservative about its air-cooled engines, however. These are listed as "unknown" but strongly resemble the later Pratt & Whitney R-4360.

In the lower view, I've shown the Martin 177 armed with its "retractable" dorsal turret in the extended position. (Note that there is no sign of a sliding hatch to cover this turret when retracted a la the Model 167 XA-22.) The large, air-cooled engines have been exposed and depicted as 4-row radials. The fully-retractable undercarriage I have based upon that of the Model 167.

In the upper, flying view, I've shown the Martin 177 armed with its tail 'stinger' .50-calibre gun. I've also shown the "retractable" dorsal turret in its retracted position (as on Jon's artist's view, this turret is shown to be only partially retractable). I've tried to stay as close as possible to the 3-view drawing ... with one exception.

Jon's 3-view drawing shows 'greeblies' on the top-rear of the nacelles which I have interpreted as exhaust covers. However, for the size of the engine depicted, I can't see how such exhaust outlets would be adequate. As speculation, I've double the exhaust outlets per side - so, there are now exhaust outlets above and below the wings.
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Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2391 on: November 26, 2019, 04:40:06 AM »
I like this one a lot apophenia, but I can't help seeing it with just one radial up front.

Fodder for another time, perhaps.

Thank you for more outstanding art!

Brian da Basher

Offline Frank3k

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2392 on: November 26, 2019, 05:52:14 AM »
I like this one a lot apophenia, but I can't help seeing it with just one radial up front.

In the thumbnail it does look like a big honkin' radial in the nose with a small cockpit way back towards the tail.

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2393 on: November 27, 2019, 01:39:59 AM »
I like this one a lot apophenia, but I can't help seeing it with just one radial up front.

In the thumbnail it does look like a big honkin' radial in the nose with a small cockpit way back towards the tail.

Indeed
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2394 on: November 27, 2019, 11:05:14 AM »
Okay, couldn't resist. Here is the single-engined Martin Mutt aka Model 177YOY ...

This was sure-fire winner of a design. Drag was reduced by having only one engine. The crew were safely ensconced in their aft compartment, away from any engine noise or vibration.

The breakthrough was realizing that the same periscopic system could be used for both viewing the runway beneath the aircraft and for bomb-aiming. The only disappointment for the design department was realizing that the drag-defeating spatted undercarriage would block the pilot's periscopic view when landing. Regretfully, the design team was forced to adopt a fully-retractable undercarriage in lieu of those aerodynamically-superior spats  :(
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 11:11:20 AM by apophenia »
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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2395 on: November 28, 2019, 01:54:20 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2396 on: November 28, 2019, 05:37:25 AM »
You're very kind and I find this one most delightful!

If you gave it Italian markings, few would doubt it wasn't "real".

Most excellent apophenia!

Brian da Basher

Offline jcf

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2397 on: November 28, 2019, 06:00:37 AM »
While they were developing the R-4360 they mocked up various configurations including:
5 row, left-hand spiral, 7 cylinders per row (R-2800 cylinders) = 35 cylinders 5,444 in3 disp.
6 row, in-line, 5 cylinders per row (R-2180 cylinders) = 30 cylinders 4,671 in3 disp.
6 row, in-line, 6 cylinders per row (R-2180 cylinders) = 36 cylinders 5,605 in3 disp.
 ;) :smiley: :icon_fsm:
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2398 on: November 28, 2019, 06:58:39 PM »
 :smiley:

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Apophenia's Offerings
« Reply #2399 on: November 30, 2019, 01:35:21 AM »
Okay, couldn't resist. Here is the single-engined Martin Mutt aka Model 177YOY ...

snip


This is turning me a little bit... perhaps a bit more than a bit.
Its not that its not real but it could be that its not true.