Author Topic: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers  (Read 27185 times)

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HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« on: September 15, 2012, 03:06:05 AM »
Hi folks,

A thread for your Hawk/Goshawk Ideas and Inspiration.



Regards,

Greg
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2012, 03:09:16 AM »
To begin with (and inspired by deathjester's recent Royal Navy SeaHawk II), what about a USMC A-45 Goshawk Light Attack Aircraft.  Base it on the Hawk200 single seat version and have it operating in a STOBAR fashion from Ski-jump equipped LHAs/LHDs instead of HArriers.
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Offline deathjester

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2012, 04:15:12 AM »
It might require conversion around the cockpit area on a standard 2 seater Hawk kit to make a single seater, unless one of you has a stash of -200's...

Offline kitnut617

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2012, 05:04:12 AM »
I quite like that idea, I've got a 1/72 '200' in the stash too.  I'll look into what is involved with dropping it in rubber and make some copies.

Offline kengeorge

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2012, 06:11:07 AM »
Hi Guys,
  As Deathjester has used an Adour 25R with afterburning for his Seahawk II, what other engine could be used without too much surgery?
 And there's me thinking about shoe-horning an RB199 minus the A/B into a hawk with a major re-design of the rear fuselage.
Any comments?
Ken...


Offline deathjester

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2012, 06:29:18 AM »
I quite like that idea, I've got a 1/72 '200' in the stash too.  I'll look into what is involved with dropping it in rubber and make some copies.
Oh, yes please!

That would make a great whiff kit...

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2012, 02:34:23 AM »
Of course rather than have to use a Hawk 200 conversion one could always either fill in the rear cockpit with electronics or fuel or similar or even go the 'whole hog' such as this:



Standard Hawk 200 shown at bottom with modified "Attack Hawk" shown top.

Regards,

Greg
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 04:05:28 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2012, 04:02:55 AM »
A Goshawk Chris did for me a while back as part of the Greater Australia story:

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2012, 04:34:21 AM »
Speaking of the Goshawk, I see Lucky Model are taking pre-orders for the new 1/48 Kinetic T-45:

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2012, 12:29:40 PM »
Hawk UAV anyone?


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Offline upnorth

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2012, 03:53:54 PM »
I like the idea of keeping the two seat shape. It does have certain advantages if you look at a corollary design:

Aero L-39 Albatros as a base design:


Turns into Aero L-159 ALCA, Rear cockpit area kept for electronics, nose design adjusted for radar related gear:


Retaining the two seater layout allows for L-159 specific trainer to be built:


Granted the L-159 is, barring the family resemblance, a completely new aircraft with no parts commonality to the L-39, but it still does show the wisdom of keeping the rear pit area available. The idea is not without other precedent as well:

The Mitsubishi F-1 kept the rear cockpit area of the T-2 that it was derived from.
The Sukhoi Su-39 was derived from the two seat variant of the Su-25.

One thing that I think would make an interesting alternative to a radar equipped Hawk would be one with a nose extension to house a laser designator.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2012, 04:00:20 PM by upnorth »
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2012, 09:54:35 PM »
Of course rather than have to use a Hawk 200 conversion one could always either fill in the rear cockpit with electronics or fuel or similar or even go the 'whole hog' such as this:



Regards,

Greg


I like the 'bubble' type canopy of the '200' for better all-around visibility.  But if you look at it, the '200' pilot is actually sitting where the back seat would be on the Hawk, and it would seem all they've done is fill the front seat area with equipment

Offline deathjester

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 01:16:47 AM »
I wonder if an F/A-18A Hornet canopy would fit on a Hawk 100 ?

Does anybody have a kit of each so they can offer the two up to each other?  :)

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 02:32:48 AM »
Variation with FLIR nose and avionics in rear cockpit.  Should also allow for increased all round vision.

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Offline ChrisF

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 07:41:42 AM »
Variation with FLIR nose and avionics in rear cockpit.  Should also allow for increased all round vision.




Im liking this setup.. It just "looks" right... Also it reminds me of certain F-15 variants... Not sure of the nose though

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2012, 07:52:03 AM »
How about a Harrier GR9 nose?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2012, 09:10:01 AM »
It might require conversion around the cockpit area on a standard 2 seater Hawk kit to make a single seater, unless one of you has a stash of -200's...
Or one can acquire the Neomega conversion kits.  I most definitely want to get one of their 1/48th ones to use on a Kinetics T-45C.

Offline Geoff

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2012, 02:07:59 PM »
Variation with FLIR nose and avionics in rear cockpit.  Should also allow for increased all round vision.





I built one of these in Polish service, but cannot find a pic. Edit - found it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2012, 02:13:55 PM by Geoff »

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 03:31:22 AM »
Outstanding!!! :)
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 03:32:18 AM »
Not sure of the nose though


It is basically the nose of the latter versions of the Hawk:

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 03:36:07 AM »
Hmmm...that picture makes me wonder...Hawk derived Forward Air Controller in this scheme (the PC-9 that is):



BTW, the artist is Conway Bown and you can see more here
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 03:11:31 PM »
Variation with FLIR nose and avionics in rear cockpit.  Should also allow for increased all round vision.




I've decided to bring this back up as I don't want to completely derail the new acquisitions thread.

I recently bought Airfix's 1/72 Hawk T.Mk.1 and have decided to have a go  at a light attack variation

The premise is this:

The entire Hawk 200 program is shelved. Initially this is the result of lukewarm response to the type by potential customers; however, the 1986 crash of a demonstrator aircraft which killed the pilot was also key in the decision to halt work on it.

One comment that BAe reps heard frequently from potential customers was that they might be more interested if the attack version had more commonality with the baseline Hawk for ease of maintenance. Several said that they would happily forgo the radar in favor of optical and thermal targeting devices.

With this information, the representatives recommended engineers and designers to work inside the existing Hawk T.Mk.1 lines to develop the attack variant.

The first step was to gut the rear cockpit and refit it as an avionics compartment. Some of the equipment from the nose was relocated into the new compartment to make room for an LRMTS fairing on top of the nose section. Consequently, the nose mounted pitot tube was relocated to the vertical fin leading edge.

Other changes were smaller in order to keep as much commonality as possible. Antenna fit was altered to fit the attack role, this included the RWR receiver on the vertical fin.

Some thought was also given to possible users in developing nations who might have rougher airfield conditions; as such, the landing gear doors were reworked to allow large sections of them to remain closed except on take off and landing rotations.

All of this resulted in a machine which the RAF, who ordered a squadron worth for evaluation, referred to as the Hawk Gr.Mk.3. The evaluation unit was given the 64 Squadron number plate.

When the new aircraft was put on demonstration, to many of the same countries the Hawk 200 was demonstrated to, the response was markedly warmer; particularly when the commonalities between it and the baseline Hawk were demonstrated.

Meanwhile, 64 squadron, who operated the type for a period of five years through the late 80s and early 90s, was gathering a wealth of data on operations with it and compiling a list of suggested improvements.

Enough orders were confirmed to justify production and many of the recommendations made by RAF pilots were instituted in the new Hawk 100 airframe seen in the profile above.

While the RAF ultimately saw the light attack Hawk variant as superfluous to requirements, they did take the Hawk 100 on as the T.Mk.2.

Several nations have purchased the light attack Hawk and others are considering it. It is often perceived as a direct competitor to the Czech L-59 ALCA; however, this is somewhat of a misconception as the attack Hawk has much more commonality with the basic Hawk while the Czech aircraft has only a family resemblance to the L-39 Albatros that it descended from and no commonality with it. As such, L-39 user nations would not enjoy the same benefits of ease of maintenance on the L-159 that Hawk users would on the Hawk 100 series.

From an operational standpoint, the two are comparable. However, from a selling point of view, the Czech aircraft has been largely sales proof while the Hawk continues to sell.
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2012, 01:31:48 PM »
Hmm, just a thought for a single-seat Hawk 100 variant.  Keep the basic avionics in the nose that it has now and take the path Aermacchi used with the MB-326K and MB-339K, fit two cannon as "cheek guns" and put the ammo storage and feed where the second seat was.  This leaves all your hardpoints for other ordnance.  Damn, now i'm going to have to play with this idea further.

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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2012, 04:27:25 AM »
Hmm, just a thought for a single-seat Hawk 100 variant.  Keep the basic avionics in the nose that it has now and take the path Aermacchi used with the MB-326K and MB-339K, fit two cannon as "cheek guns" and put the ammo storage and feed where the second seat was.  This leaves all your hardpoints for other ordnance.  Damn, now i'm going to have to play with this idea further.

Maybe, but does the Hawk actually have a centre line pylon or is that station specifically for the Aden cannon or travel/smoke pod?

The only time I've ever seen a Hawk with a centre line pylon was a single picture of one of the Hawk 200 demonstrators with a mock up Sea Eagle mounted.
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Re: HSA/BAe/BAE Systems/MCD Hawk/Goshawk Trainers
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2012, 04:43:53 AM »
Hmm, just a thought for a single-seat Hawk 100 variant.  Keep the basic avionics in the nose that it has now and take the path Aermacchi used with the MB-326K and MB-339K, fit two cannon as "cheek guns" and put the ammo storage and feed where the second seat was.  This leaves all your hardpoints for other ordnance.  Damn, now i'm going to have to play with this idea further.

Cool thinking.
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