Author Topic: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler  (Read 36705 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« on: September 02, 2012, 04:32:41 AM »
Hi folks,

An aircraft that just oozed sex appeal:


So let's see your ideas?

Regards,

Greg
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2012, 04:36:38 AM »
To start with, whilst looking for something else, I stumbled across this:

Quote
EUROPEAN RECOGNITION MODEL - B-58 - 1:200 SCALE



Several European/NATO countries produced recognition models during the cold war period; models were produced in several scales and in various materials. I assume that some of these were also available on the commercial market. This B-58 model is in 1:200 scale with a length of 5.87 inches. The material is plastic and the model has a raised number "303" on the undersurface of the wing. This attractive example of a NATO recognition model is available for Sorry Sold.



Source

Now, whilst many of us have considered doing a RAF B-58, I am intrigued by the fact that this recognition model has RAF markings...hmmm, I wonder what the story behind it is?

Regards,

Greg
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2012, 04:38:30 AM »
Whilst on the European theme, what about a French Force de Frappe B-58 instead of the Mirage IV?
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2012, 04:49:09 AM »
More inspiration:


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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 04:52:45 AM »
Now whilst I know there were some proposals for B-58 derived passenger aircraft (see below), I wonder about something simpler whereby a passenger version of the pod is used?

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Offline tc2324

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 05:57:55 AM »
Here`s my interpretation of this aircraft in RAF markings from last year.



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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 06:06:41 AM »
 :)
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 07:10:10 AM »
did someone say "sex appeal" ....

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 11:34:10 AM »
 :)
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2012, 04:19:10 PM »
I've always thought the B-58 was one of the most Soviet looking designs that America ever came up with. It has Tupolev or Myashishev written all over it

Using the Academy 1/144 kit, I once tried to take the two outboard jet pods and move them to positions either side of the vertical fin in Tu-22 "Blinder" style. I didn't get it to work as well as I had hoped, but I will try it again sometime.

My idea was to scratch build some "Ash" AAMs for it and maybe make it a Myashishev competitor to the Tu-128 "Fiddler".

The B-58 just looks like red stars and bort numbers should be on it.
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 04:43:07 PM »
Whilst the B-58 was used in trials to support the YF-12, what about a dedicated USAF interceptor version?  Maybe armed with up to 8 Phoenix or equivalent?  Crew could comprise pilot plus RIO and Offensive electonics officer or even two RIOs.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 01:57:46 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 06:16:40 PM »
Early mockup of the B-58.   Makes an interesting comparison to what was built.


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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2012, 03:42:20 AM »
Whilst the B-58 was used in trials to support the YF-12, what about a dedicated USAF interceptor version?  Maybe armed with up to 8 Phoenix or equivalent?  Crew could comprise pilot plus RIO and Offensive electonics officer or even two RIOs.
With the "Snoopy" nose and a new ventral pod to carry those missiles?  Why not.  Of go for four very long-range Eagle missiles, similar to those carried by the F6D,  or AIM-47/54 missiles with a booster stage added, on the existing stores hardpoints under the wing.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 09:20:10 AM »
Mike over at Lone Star Models has built in 1/48 the J-93 engine pod and decals. See here.

How about one or two of these vs four of the J-79s?

Other sites have indicated that the product release has been delayed.
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 09:25:02 AM »
I've always thought the B-58 was one of the most Soviet looking designs that America ever came up with. It has Tupolev or Myashishev written all over it

Using the Academy 1/144 kit, I once tried to take the two outboard jet pods and move them to positions either side of the vertical fin in Tu-22 "Blinder" style. I didn't get it to work as well as I had hoped, but I will try it again sometime.

My idea was to scratch build some "Ash" AAMs for it and maybe make it a Myashishev competitor to the Tu-128 "Fiddler".

The B-58 just looks like red stars and bort numbers should be on it.
According to The Future was FAB, Gerry Anderson's model shop did just that, but with both engines on each side for one of his shows.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 09:30:32 AM »
I was rather taken by the enlarged B-58 with four J75s that the Aerofax book, final edition, depicted.  I'm thinking that a Canadian version of that one, with Iroquois engines replacing the J75's, would be quite the whif.                           

Offline LemonJello

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 09:43:05 AM »
I like the look of that mock-up with the podded engines in pairs and the forward placed centerline pod.  Interesting.

When my self-imposed embargo on additions to the stash is lifted (read "when I lock up a job for after retirement") I may have to add a 1/48 version of this beast to the stash 1) it'd look cool next to my Bone and b) it'd look cool, period. 

There seems to be a little family resemblance between the B-1 and the B-58, at least to my eyes...

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 09:57:37 AM »
Courtesy of Mr. Fontaine, I have a 1/48 example plus four SRAM missiles.  I'm looking to do a "Pathfinder" version which would open a corridor in enemy defenses to allow other bombers through.  I'm not sure if I'll do it in SEA night camo or some variation of European One, but it'll definitely need something.  The other temptation is to replace the 1/48 J79 nozzles with 1/72 F100 nozzles to simulate replacement of the J79s with PW1120s for better range and performance.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2012, 11:42:38 AM »
I was rather taken by the enlarged B-58 with four J75s that the Aerofax book, final edition, depicted.  I'm thinking that a Canadian version of that one, with Iroquois engines replacing the J75's, would be quite the whif.                           

Awesome idea, one I've mulled aboot for years. Another is a stock B-58 with 4 F-104s as the engine pods. The entire plane becomes the weapon pod, with the 104s popping off at the last minute then fighting their way back out...huh....what? Yes, I know, totally insane, but it would look awesome!!!!!!!!!

I'm surprised NASA didn't have one for testing various inlet configurations and vehicle shapes at high speeds. The HUstler would look nice in the all white/blue cheat line scheme.

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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 12:08:16 AM »
10-12 passenger transport for Team Penske Racing.
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2012, 10:07:52 AM »
Flip engines to top of wings.
Mount wing and nose pontoons.
Torpedoes under fuselage.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2013, 07:29:50 AM »
Given Alexander Lippisch's possible (albeit indirect IIRC) influence in Convair's  work that led to the B-58 Hustler (big stretch here I know), what if we had a "Fatherland" style scenario whereby the B-58 was a German Lippisch dsigned bomber?
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #22 on: March 10, 2013, 07:44:23 AM »
Given Alexander Lippisch's possible (albeit indirect IIRC) influence in Convair's  work that led to the B-58 Hustler (big stretch here I know), what if we had a "Fatherland" style scenario whereby the B-58 was a German Lippisch dsigned bomber?

Lippisch on his own or still working for Messerschmitt?  If the latter, perhaps as a Me-561 (or higher number - I can see it as, though, as a continuation of the '61 line of fast multi-engined aircraft).

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2013, 07:56:16 AM »
Either or...
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2013, 10:23:15 AM »
The triangle shape is about the only thing Lippisch's work has in common with Convair's work.
They quickly saw that his thick wings were a no go, and moved on, the old man didn't,
so for the same reasons a Messerippisch B-58 is unlikely. Unless you follow a similar path,
with Messerschmitt saying 'nice shape, but too fat. Stand over here Doc while we cutout
the schnitzel'.
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2013, 10:25:43 AM »
I can see Lippisch coming up with the concept but with Messerschmitt doing considerable "refining" in developing the design.

Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2013, 07:25:21 AM »
Not sure this is the right place for this but I have some spare J79 nacelles from a 1/128(?) Hustler that I want to stick onto a suitable 50's fighter Super Lorin/Blinder style. Does anybody have any suggestions?

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2013, 09:12:37 AM »
Not sure this is the right place for this but I have some spare J79 nacelles from a 1/128(?) Hustler that I want to stick onto a suitable 50's fighter Super Lorin/Blinder style. Does anybody have any suggestions?
Would that be the old Monogram kit?  Perhaps a 1/72 F-102 with the inlets faired over and the back end of that B-58 replacing the exhaust nozzle.  Cluster the pods two to a side at the base of the vertical fin.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #28 on: April 27, 2013, 06:10:04 AM »
I recall reading something a while back about the B-58 being retired due to airframe stress brought about by flying at low altitudes for which it was not designed.  When the B-52 went to low level flight the tail was reduced in size.  How much of a reduction in size of the B-58 tail would be needed for the same purposes?  Perhaps something in the shape of the F-111 tail in shape and size? 
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2013, 01:36:23 PM »
I wonder if Stargazer could do his photoshop magic with this picture and eliminate the Hustler's four wing-mounted J79 turbojet pods and nacelles, so leaving the design to look like it is only powered by the J93?? ;)

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2013, 03:04:14 AM »
Errr...would that be this picture?

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2013, 05:55:26 AM »
That suggests a late-60's whif to me.  A NB-58 in a similar configuration, but the pod would be for testing the GE4 engine for the SST.  I'm not sure if one could fit the SST's inlet, given that it was a 3-D spike inlet, or if you'd need to go with one like this.

Make it extra colorful by flying it in NASA markings.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2013, 07:28:47 AM »
Lone star Models do a conversion in 1/48:

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2013, 09:18:29 AM »
Link to YouTube Video Search Results for "Convair B-58 Hustler"

This one in particular was very interesting as it shows the B-58 Hustler operating at very low level and high speed:
<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>


And to spice it up a bit more there is this Blog entry from "Bring The Heat Bring The Stupid on USAF Operation Bulls Eye (low level Hustler) which is where I found the link to the YouTube video of the B-58 Hustler low level fight testing.  The bonus is the digital artwork of the B-58 wearing the SIOP camouflage with the black underside.   


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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2013, 09:52:24 AM »


Erik Simonsen did a composite image of one of those recently.  Very pretty.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #35 on: April 17, 2014, 08:02:17 PM »
Thinking RAAF low level penetrator in overall Foliage Green (like some WWII RAAF combat aircraft), maybe a conventionally armed B-58A but leaning towards a specialist penetrator / interdictor with more powerful alternate engines preferably more economical turbo fans, either afterburning or non afterburning but with super cruise capability. i.e. Sprey, Conway, Olympus (yes and maybe possibly Iroquois).  Pave Tac or Pave Spike either pylon or pod mounted, maybe a rotary bomb bay fitted to the semi permanent centre line pod.  Pylon mounted Shrikes, HARMs, Standard ARMs, possibly Sidewinder and Phoenix ;D.  In built Wild Weasel kit, jamming pods.  Possibly DSTO (fictional) developed Laser Guided missile using Paveway seeker and maybe Standard ARM airframe and motor for stand off attacks against difficult targets.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2015, 09:22:09 AM »
This was a B-58 until Gerry Anderson intervened:



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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2015, 10:49:53 AM »
Anderson or his effects boss Derek Meddings? I'd wager the latter.

Much of the tech from Anderson's various series was not designed by Anderson, he was more involved with the puppets,
but by his effects team led by Meddings. Mike Trim designed a number of the machines.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2015, 04:53:25 AM »
Interesting pic I found online - note the Canards:

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2015, 06:12:22 AM »
Shorter vertical fin, perhaps longer in chord (looking like the fin from the F-111 for example) to give the B-58 better performance at low level flight?
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2015, 06:25:59 AM »
Nice.

Did you see the artists name?   "McCall"
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2015, 06:33:18 AM »
Nice.

Did you see the artists name?   "McCall"

Indeed.  Artwork: “Failsafe” Saturday Evening Post Cover (October 13, 1962) by Robert McCall.
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2015, 06:35:13 AM »
Cool photo:

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2015, 08:00:45 AM »
Nice.

Did you see the artists name?   "McCall"

Indeed.  Artwork: “Failsafe” Saturday Evening Post Cover (October 13, 1962) by Robert McCall.

Ah. That explains the very Moscovian cityscape.
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2016, 04:03:59 AM »
Could make an interesting diorama:

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2016, 05:52:19 AM »
Could make an interesting diorama:




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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2016, 07:43:30 AM »
A ZELL launcher might be as big as a neighborhood strip mall but it might be interesting.   
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2016, 07:58:30 AM »
Needs a RATO or catapult to really impress.  :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline LemonJello

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2016, 08:38:36 PM »
Needs a RATO or catapult to really impress.  :)

Would that RATO be the size of a Minuteman III? 

I seem to talk myself in and out of adding a B-58 to the collection...and here you all go finding cool artwork and ideas to tempt me.

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2016, 12:03:00 AM »
Needs a RATO or catapult to really impress.  :)

Would that RATO be the size of a Minuteman III? 

I seem to talk myself in and out of adding a B-58 to the collection...and here you all go finding cool artwork and ideas to tempt me.

I'm debating about selling my 1/48 scale kit. I WANT to sell it, then I see something cool  :-\ hell it just looks cool sitting there

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2016, 03:58:09 AM »
How about an RAF B-58K with the J-79s replaced by afterburning Speys? More fuel-efficient in subsonic cruise, more thrust in supersonic dash. There might be a US equivalent with TF-30s.

How do you represent this? Simple: use the engine pods from the 1/64th Lindberg kit on a 1/72nd airframe, or the pods from Lindberg's 1/128th version on a 1/144th airframe.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2016, 04:53:59 AM »
Needs a RATO or catapult to really impress.  :)

Would that RATO be the size of a Minuteman III? 

I seem to talk myself in and out of adding a B-58 to the collection...and here you all go finding cool artwork and ideas to tempt me.

If the Hustler were carrying the bomb/fuel pod then the RATO units could be mounted on the hard points for the four nuclear weapons just beneath and aft of the wing trailing edge.  Rocket units would be about the same size as what was used for the Mace and Matador missiles or maybe the Snark if you can find the Lindberg 1:48th scale kit for cheap. 

That would solve the RATO question easily enough.  With that thing sitting at angle in that hardened shelter is may as well be a ZELL launcher :)

I seem to talk myself in and out of adding a B-58 to the collection...and here you all go finding cool artwork and ideas to tempt me.

I'm debating about selling my 1/48 scale kit. I WANT to sell it, then I see something cool  :-\ hell it just looks cool sitting there
If you sell your Hustler don't worry, I have at least three of the things in protective custody :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 04:55:53 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2016, 11:27:13 PM »
How about an RAF B-58K with the J-79s replaced by afterburning Speys? More fuel-efficient in subsonic cruise, more thrust in supersonic dash. There might be a US equivalent with TF-30s.

How do you represent this? Simple: use the engine pods from the 1/64th Lindberg kit on a 1/72nd airframe, or the pods from Lindberg's 1/128th version on a 1/144th airframe.

I speculated / wondered a while ago as to whether a B-58 retrofitted with non-after burning Olympus or Conway would still be supersonic.

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2016, 01:32:05 AM »
Could make an interesting diorama:




From an unaired episode of "Thunderbirds" where Jeff Tracy gets fed up with The Hood for the last time, and launches a nuclear strike against his hidden fortress. I think it was called "The Boom Boom". :o
 ;)

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2016, 10:40:15 AM »
Found on Facebook:



Source: Facebook The Greatest Planes That Never Were
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #55 on: April 21, 2017, 06:55:08 PM »
Just finished reading "The B-58 Blunder - How the US Abandoned its Best Strategic Bomber" by Colonel George Holt Jr, US Air Force Retired and picked up some very interesting incites.

For instance the B-58 was actually cheaper to operate than the B-52 with the quoted two wings of B-58s cost more to operate than six wings of B-52s being disingenuous as B-52 wings had 15 aircraft each and the B-58 wings had 39 aircraft, this being due to the much longer scramble time of the B-52 requiring it to be dispersed to have a chance of surviving a pre emptive strike while every airworthy B-58 would be airborne and well away from the airfield before an ICBM strike could hit. 

So it was really a comparison between 78 B-58s and 90 B-52s, discounting the fact the B-52 required 6 bases to operate those aircraft.  They had also used the acquisition and development costs, ignoring the fact that both types were owned by the USAF therefor amortised development costs didn't matter when considering ongoing operations.  Then there is six crew verses three, the fact the B-58 was more survivable and far more likely to succeed in its mission due to its better penetration capabilities and much lower RCS.

What I also didn't realise is the B-58 actually had a larger nuclear warload than the B-52, meaning not only was it more likely to get through, but it would do more damage once it did.   The B-58 had also just been through a comprehensive inspect and repair / upgrade program and could have easily served for another decade with no extra investment while the B-52s that SAC was trying to save were C and F models that ended up being retired only a couple of years later.

Following reading the book I am now of a mind that the type would have been an outstanding silver bullet for the RAF and RAAF with its podded engines providing some very interesting re-engining options.  There's also the USAF upgrade options that could have made it even more capable and survivable, probably better worth keeping than even the G model B-52s, replacing all the older B-52s with FB-111s and B-1Bs.  Its stellar performance, it could literally outrun intercepting fighters, makes you wonder how the type would have done as a long range interceptor.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #56 on: April 21, 2017, 08:08:19 PM »
An idea I had when I got my hands on the 1/72 Italeri kit was to arm it with AGM-69 SRAM's instead of the B28 gravity bombs (plus the huge drop tank/H-bomb combo). Would add to its survivability and viability against SAM-defended targets - an added bonus would be that SRAM range and speed would probably be greatly increased with high-speed high-altitude launch. Maybe it could even deliver the huge belly nuke (unless a new tank containing nothing but fuel was designed) after softening up the approach with four SRAM's...

Also, miniaturisation in electronics would have allowed it to eventually incorporate ECM equipment in the space formerly occupied by avionics, giving up a few kph's of speed in exchange for the associated lumps and bumps.

Of course, this updated concept from around 1970's would have the SAC camo of the era - SEA uppers and anti-flash white belly.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #57 on: April 21, 2017, 10:34:54 PM »
I'm thinking a conventional mission conversion with the B-61s replaced with conventional munitions, maybe the GBU-15 or Popeye.

I still want to know if the B-58 could super cruise with a turbofan or larger turbojet than the J-79, further increasing range and it low level performance.  A TFR is probably a no brainer but if exported, hence still in production in the mid to late 60s, the unit cost would drop and there would be younger airframe suitable for modernisation and retaining in service into the late 80s, early 90s therefore worth further upgrades until replaced by the B-1

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2017, 10:15:54 AM »
Delta wings are bad news when flying low level in dense air.  They suffer excessive vibration and are harder to control than a swept wing aircraft.  Fitting the B-58 with TFR would be interesting but you'd have a severely shortened service life.   Using Olympus instead of J-79 engines would be interesting.  Speys would offer better economy.  Conway, with afterburner (if developed) would offer best alternative IMO.

Conway - Maximum Thrust - 17,150 lb
Olympus 101 - Maximum Thrust - 11,000 lb
Spey 202 - Maximum Thrust - 12,140 lb; with reheat: 20,500 lb
J79-GE-17 - Maximum Thrust - 11,905 lb; 17,835 lb with afterburner

With any of the three alternatives the B-58 would IMO be comfortably supersonic. 

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2017, 11:16:52 AM »
I've been thinking of doing a modernized B-58 with F404s replacing the J79s or, if you wait a little later to replace the engines, PW1120s to replace the J79s.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2017, 11:23:19 AM »
B-52 suffered regular, fatal, catastrophic structural failures when they started flying at low level, the bonded honeycomb B-58, with its much smaller wing did not.  The B-58 proved much more suited to low level than the B-52, let alone the more difficult to fly B-47, was it perfect, no, but it was the best they had, better even than the too small FB-111.

There is another myth that the B-58 was subsonic at low altitude and subsonic when fitted with external stores, this was from erroneous testimony given by McNamara to Congress where he stated that it was his understanding that supersonic aircraft could not exceed the speed of sound with external stores fitted, therefore the B-58 was subsonic with same.  This is wrong as the B-58 could fly at Mach 2+ with its centre pod and four B-61s and could dash at supersonic speeds at low level but more importantly it could cruise at 610kts at low level with a full war load, making it almost impossible to track, let alone intercept.

Another myth the book set straight was the accident rate of the B-58, given as 26 aircraft, over 22% of the fleet.  Of the 26 aircraft lost, 7 were development aircraft lost before the type entered service, three were ground / taxiing accidents (one aircraft was actually repaired and not lost) which is actually 14% and considering the bleeding edge technology of the type pretty low.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #61 on: April 22, 2017, 12:00:05 PM »
Well, you've definitely convinced me to buy that book.  For the 1969 time frame, I wonder if they would consider afterburning TF41s for a re-engining?  Given the rather greater diameter (and for all that it's derived from the Spey, it's of rather greater diameter than those engines in the Phantom FG.1/FGR.2; I'll skip the long-winded dissertation unless asked.  I wonder if 1/48 engine pods and exhausts would fit under a 1/72 airframe?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #62 on: April 22, 2017, 04:21:39 PM »
Apparently the RCS of the B-58 was similar to the Mig 21 while the B-52 was a flying barn door.

Offline finsrin

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #63 on: April 22, 2017, 04:27:58 PM »
Kitbash with two canted tails ?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #64 on: April 22, 2017, 08:52:21 PM »
Why not?

Sorry if I seem to be carrying on about the Hustler a bit and I know the author was biased but his account is the first time I have ever seen any contradiction of the standard story that it was too inflexible, too short ranged, to expensive to operate, couldn't fly low level etc. To actually see many of those claims disputed by an expert who crewed B-47s, B-52s and B-58s, together with an explanation of the politics, i.e. four wings of B-52s meant the loss of four wing commander billets, while disposing of the B-58 would only cost two says a lot and I could see it happening.

Offline Kelmola

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2017, 11:32:56 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised at all if McNamara willfully lied in order to advance his pet project, the F-111, and B-58 just so happened to be in the way of FB-111A (and F-111A to a lesser extent).

Never mind that when fully loaded, FB-111's performance suffered much more than B-58's, and it was still shorter ranged, even though on long-range missions it would have carried just one SRAM to have the necessary range. Sure, FB-111 could on paper carry more conventional ordnance, nevermind that it was not tasked to do that until B-1B became operational and at maximum load would not have been a great performer, limiting it to smaller loads in practice (Meanwhile in Operation Bullseye, B-58 proved it could fly at 600+ kts at low altitude while carrying four MER's full of bombs).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #66 on: April 23, 2017, 12:47:29 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised at all if McNamara willfully lied in order to advance his pet project, the F-111, and B-58 just so happened to be in the way of FB-111A (and F-111A to a lesser extent).

Never mind that when fully loaded, FB-111's performance suffered much more than B-58's, and it was still shorter ranged, even though on long-range missions it would have carried just one SRAM to have the necessary range. Sure, FB-111 could on paper carry more conventional ordnance, nevermind that it was not tasked to do that until B-1B became operational and at maximum load would not have been a great performer, limiting it to smaller loads in practice (Meanwhile in Operation Bullseye, B-58 proved it could fly at 600+ kts at low altitude while carrying four MER's full of bombs).

McNamara eventually gave in and the B-58 was slotted to serve until 1974, it was Melvin Laird, Nixons Sec Def who authorised the retirement based on the recommendation of the Chief of the Air Force, who in turn acted on the advice of the head of SAC who had deliberately bypassed anyone he thought would dispute his decision and justification, i.e. anyone with first hand operational knowledge of the B-58s capabilities and true operating costs.  Once the recommendation had been made to government the USAF couldn't back out but the head of SAC copped it from the hear of the USAF for not following procedure and deliberately misleading him. 

Basically the Heavy Bomber Mafia within SAC did to the Medium Bomber Community what they had been doing to Naval and Army aviation for generations, they deliberately and maliciously misled their superiors and government to protect their own little fiefdom.  The really stupid bit is the 60 B-52s they saved, only served for less than another two years as they were older C and F models that were significantly less capable than the newer Gs and Hs, even the big bellied Ds and especially the B-58s.  They were even the aircraft flagged to have been replaced by the FB-111 at the earliest opportunity (i.e. 1974) therefore the sacrifice of the B-58 is even more nonsensical.

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2017, 06:06:00 AM »
Dam Volkodav, in my Alternative ADF ORBAT, I had  proposed "interim" A-5B Vigilante taking up the slack of F-111 development delays and issues. But now you've seriously got me thinking of the 'real-world' U.S. offer of the B-58 Hustler......Arrrrrrrr >:D

M.A.D

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2017, 06:21:50 AM »
Why not an affraid (manned) version?

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #69 on: August 29, 2018, 07:28:35 PM »
Found on Facebook.



Note: Image currently unavailable.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 09:20:35 AM by The Big Gimper »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #70 on: August 30, 2018, 12:26:42 AM »
^ @Carl - nice find!  Makes you wonder what the Hustler would look like with a Grand Slam or Tall Boy strapped to the belly :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2018, 12:33:25 AM »
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2018, 03:21:16 AM »
Hmmm...maybe one in NASA scheme?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2018, 02:05:53 PM »
I've been thinking of one in Aerospace Weather Service markings, such as B-47's flew in.  Perhaps they could check the weather on SST routes for military SSTs?

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2018, 07:26:12 PM »
I've been thinking of one in Aerospace Weather Service markings, such as B-47's flew in.  Perhaps they could check the weather on SST routes for military SSTs?

Great idea Evan.  Baby brother could be a WF-107A Super Saber in the same finish. 
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2019, 09:35:10 AM »




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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2021, 02:33:33 AM »
The more I think about it, the more I like a Air Defence Interceptor version of the B-58 (F-58?).  Options for schemes include:

USAF/US ANG
RCAF - got to patrol that arctic wilderness
RAF - a solution for Operational Requirement F.155 and patrolling the GIUK
RAAF - why not?
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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2021, 02:40:59 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2021, 12:40:32 PM »
From YouTube: Convair video on the first "tactical" B-58 Hustler (aircraft number 31)

Very interesting video thanks Jeffry Fontaine, but although they keep referring to 'the tactical Hustler', they still don't elaborate why it's tactical in nature and intent 😯🤔

MAD

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2021, 04:19:13 AM »


All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2021, 04:19:57 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2021, 04:23:24 AM »
Hustler carrying the Grand Slam would be nice to see...
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline M.A.D

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2021, 02:54:12 PM »
Hustler carrying the Grand Slam would be nice to see...

Yes, indeed Jeffry Fontaine....or maybe a derivative of the guided ASM-A-1 (VB-13) Tarzon 🤔

https://youtu.be/5GpuI9ZSIFs

MAD
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 03:01:08 PM by M.A.D »

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2023, 02:13:28 AM »




CFBVs
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Offline apophenia

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2023, 04:51:57 AM »
For when your Hustler just doesn't have enough oomph!  :smiley:
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Convair (General Dynamics) B-58 Hustler
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2023, 10:49:59 AM »
Did they ever just cut a bomb bay into that giant pod? Seems to be the easiest thing to do.