Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration

[Litvyak]

That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia

Really? What where when?

[elmayerle]

That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia

Really? What where when?

A-144/1 and A-144/2 MiG-21-based testbeds for the Tu-144 wing designs are what I'm reckoning the reference is to.  Both are available from, if memory serves me correctly, Art Model.

[kitnut617]

That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia

Really? What where when?

OK, this will make it more presentable;

[Litvyak]

Ah, okay, I knew about that! (I have the *big* MiG-21 book, after all...)

[kitnut617]

I think it was to test the wing for the SST though, so not exactly like a true delta

D'oh! Evan's got it ahead of me ---

[Silver Fox]

OK, just did some "Walk Around" research on the Mirage III. I confirmed a suspicion I had, will now suffer nightmares for weeks and may lose much of my hair... but have valuable info for anyone modelling a Mirage II.

The main and nose gear doors are rigged in a manner virtually identical to the Dassault Falcon 20's I worked on. After shutdown, the doors will remain locked up, unless released from the mechanical locks. Releasing the doors is needed to properly inspect the various components installed in the bay. On the Falcon 20 (CC-117) we would do it a couple of minutes after shutdown once the pressure bled out of the hydraulic systems. I actually found a picture that shows virtually the same switches and door uplock I am familiar with from the Falcon. Might actually be the same part in the case of the switch.

Feel free to build with doors open or closed... both are right. :)

The nightmares and hair loss I will explain if anyone wants to know just how the Falcon (and presumably Mirage) landing gear retraction sequence works. :)

[GTX_Admin]

Found online:

[GTX_Admin]

[Daryl J.]

Overall green RCAF.
Drop tanks and nose from a Kfir.
Possible F-21-like canards

[Daryl J.]

Kinetic Mirage IIIE:   Swedish Splinter, Recce nose, 3 large drop tanks...2 for fuel, 1 for water/methanol injection.

Drop tanks sourced from their Kfir?

[Weaver]

I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.

[elmayerle]

I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.

Depending on what wing planform the European Shuttle uses, you might want to modify the Mirage III planform to match.

[Weaver]

I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.

Depending on what wing planform the European Shuttle uses, you might want to modify the Mirage III planform to match.

Well I was going to make it easy for myself and say the spaceplane is a pure delta! The use of a Mirage III implies a late 1960s, early 1970s timeframe, so I see it as a relatively small and simple "winged upper stage" with six seats, rather than a US-style "space truck". If it was a 1980s-on project, then it'd be hard to see a reason not to use the Mirage 2000, since it's FBW could be re-programmed to simulate the spaceplane.

[elmayerle]

Late 1960s - early 1970s works well for a pure delta shuttle (indeed, it wasn't until 1972 that the oglive wing appeared on the US shuttle design, having progressed from a straight wing and tail through a pure delta wing.

[GTX_Admin]

Well Hermes (below) was first proposed in 1975 (before the Mirage 2000) so perhaps it could be the basis for justifying your Mirage III (if you need a justification):



Maybe you could remove the main tail fin and replace it with a pair of smaller wingtip ones?  Maybe also keep the rocket pack as an additional training aid?

[elmayerle]

Leave the single vertical and ignore the wingtip ones, NASA did that in using the F5D for similar training for the X-20 Dyna-Soar pilots (Neil Armstrong among them).  It would also make for a simpler conversion.  I do agree with the suggestion keeping, or even enlarging, the rocket pack (consider the NF-104).

[Weaver]

Yep - didn't mention it, but the rocket pack is definately in the plan. The idea is that there's a single store on the centreline that holds extra rocket fuel plus some ballast weight so that the drag/mass/lift relationship of the Mirage is closer to that of the spaceplane.

The background is a rough one that I worked out where an earlier and better-funded ESA does a deal with NASA in the 1960s. Instead of wastefully competing, Europe does the small steps "infrastructure" stuff like a space station and a spaceplane, while NASA concentrates on the cash-hungry beat-the-Soviets-to-the-moon program.

[GTX_Admin]

Leave the single vertical and ignore the wingtip ones, NASA did that in using the F5D for similar training for the X-20 Dyna-Soar pilots (Neil Armstrong among them).  It would also make for a simpler conversion. 

I was going for the dramatically different look as opposed to realism...

[GTX_Admin]

Concept of an updated Mirage III by Motocar:  Amongst other things it has new cockpit, AESA radar, IRST, RD33 engine, CFTs …

[Daryl J.]

Why the RD-33.


I took the liberty and suggested to Kinetic they include a couple what-ifs on a future release's decal sheet.
Ah to dream.

[GTX_Admin]

The RD33 was due to this being a Russian based upgrade.  If you look, it also gets Russian missiles.

[kitnut617]

If you look, it also gets Russian missiles.

But Western bombs    which country was the upgrade aimed at ?

[GTX_Admin]

The Argentine Air Force - Mirage IIIEA + R for Russia

[elmayerle]

Given Russia's involvement with South Africa on a Mirage F.1 update, including a RD33 engine, this is quite plausible, and getting a chance to base aircraft that far south could be of value to Russia's interests.

[Rickshaw]

Given Russia's involvement with South Africa on a Mirage F.1 update, including a RD33 engine, this is quite plausible, and getting a chance to base aircraft that far south could be of value to Russia's interests.

I can understand the former point.  Such upgrades would generate much needed foreign exchange.  The latter though?

Anyway, with the games that Vlad is playing at the moment and the sanctions being applied, any nation would be hard pressed taking on such a project and sustaining it in the long-term in the face of US opposition.