Author Topic: Logan's Profiles - 8x8 Scimitar  (Read 279100 times)

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #800 on: June 24, 2021, 11:03:02 AM »
I was reading recently about difficulties with Chieftain reliability and then separately was reminded of the FV4201/T95 studies, and I realized that if the T95/FV4201 combination was technically possible, then so too would a Chieftain turret on an M60 hull. I realized that I hadn't actually seen one of those mocked up before, so I decided to take some of the profiles from Tank Encyclopedia and try my hand at it. I did my best to scale these accurately, so I hope you all find them interesting, at least.



M60 Chieftain early production



M60 Chieftain circa 1970s NATO



M60 Chieftain circa 1980s NATO



M60 Chieftain export

Anyway, I hope these prove interesting to some as a quick evening mockup.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #801 on: June 24, 2021, 11:18:57 AM »
 8) :smiley: :smiley:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #802 on: June 24, 2021, 12:39:00 PM »
That actually looks really nice!

Here's a thought, why not an Israeli version, they were an M-60 operator, were involved in the Chieftain project at some point, and modernize and modify anything and everything they get their hands on.

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #803 on: June 24, 2021, 09:14:49 PM »
Here's a thought, why not an Israeli version, they were an M-60 operator, were involved in the Chieftain project at some point, and modernize and modify anything and everything they get their hands on.

Thanks! That's a good point. If the project had been trans-Atlantic, then the IDF would almost certainly been able to get them as opposed to the real timeline where they were denied at the last moment only to have the fruit of their efforts sold to their enemies.

Do you want early or late, side skirts or not?

Cheers,

Logan

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #804 on: June 25, 2021, 07:53:05 AM »
Great to see you back profiling Logan!  And these Chieftain/M60 hybrids look great   :smiley: :smiley:

Do you want early or late, side skirts or not?

I'll butt in here with a vote for side skirts for the IDF 'Chief60'.
The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf ...

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #805 on: June 26, 2021, 05:09:44 AM »
Great to see you back profiling Logan!  And these Chieftain/M60 hybrids look great   :smiley: :smiley:

I'll butt in here with a vote for side skirts for the IDF 'Chief60'.

Thanks, apophenia!

Here's some early, mid, and late variants of IDF M60 Chieftains.







Cheers,

Logan

Offline Geist

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #806 on: June 26, 2021, 08:29:55 PM »
Great works Logan!
Congratulations for the work at Radiodixie.
 ;) :smiley:
Check out my other works at my website, leave your comments and download the wallpapers!
http://www.duhraviationart.com

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #807 on: June 26, 2021, 08:48:12 PM »
 8) :smiley:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #808 on: June 27, 2021, 01:51:43 AM »
Of course checking shows that a M1 Abrams has the same turret ring diameter...just saying for future reference ;)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Logan's Profiles - M60 Chieftain
« Reply #809 on: June 27, 2021, 07:25:28 AM »
Very nice! I love the later version M60 Chieftain with add-on turret armour, side skirts, bustle stowage, 21st Century antennae farm, etc.

... Congratulations for the work at Radiodixie...


For context: http://www.radiodixie.cz/magazin/autor/hartke

If, like me, you've got an older browser, try: http://www.radiodixie.cz/search?q=Hartke
The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf ...

Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #810 on: August 01, 2021, 12:01:37 PM »


(South African soldiers examine a T-34 knocked out during Operation “Savannah” in 1976.)
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/09/06/t-34-in-angola-1970s-1980s/

During Operation Savannah in 1975-76, the incursion into Angola provided a number of difficult but valuable lessons to the South African Defence Force. Encounters with T-34-85s were becoming increasingly common and the Eland's mobility in during the expedition was shown to be wanting. Two short term programs were initiated in an attempt to address these issues. The more straightforward of these involved placing the Eland's 90mm turret on a standard Ratel IFV hull. More extensive and unusual, however, was the Ratel 85 program. Long term operations deep into enemy territory revealed the importance of logistics in sustaining any SADF forces committed. Any stocks of ammunition captured from Cuban and Angolan forces proved to be of little value to the South Africans because they used completely different calibers. Large caliber ammunition was particularly heavy and difficult to resupply by air. One radical proposal was to fit cut down Ratel hulls with upgraded T-34-85 turrets that could use standard 85mm ammunition often encountered in supply caches captured during such raids as a way of topping up stocks during bush operations.



(Ratel Prototype with Soft Steel Plate Armor)
http://www.warwheels.net/RatelIFVIndex.html

A turret from a T-34-85 captured in Angola was mounted on the cut down hull of a prototype Ratel and the combination was shown to be a workable interim vehicle to operate with Ratel mechanised infantry battalions. A pre-production batch of five vehicles using available turrets was built for evaluation, testing, and tactical development. One of these would later be evaluated against the three 8x8 "Concept" armoured car prototypes that would eventually lead to the Rooikat. While none of these would prove suitable, a small scale production series of 24 Ratel 85s was ordered into immediate production to equip the armoured car squadrons of two mechanized infantry battalions and replace the Eland 90 in those units. Additional T-34-85 turrets had to be obtained from abroad in order to meet this requirement, most likely sourced from Israel.



Ratel 85

These turrets would feature a significant number of modifications by Sandock-Austral in cooperation with Armscor. This involved the fitting of a muzzle brake, adapted from that of the 90mm GT-2 fitted to the Eland armoured car. The commander was provided with an M1919A4/MG4 machine gun on a pintle mount, and the Soviet radio was removed and replaced by a new radio now moved to the commander's position. Additionally, new sights, fire control, and ventilation equipment were all fitted, but standard Soviet ammunition could be used in the main gun and all ammunition racks as that was part of the original purpose of the vehicle to begin with.

They would first see action in 1981 and a second batch of 24 vehicles was soon ordered using the additional turrets captured from cross-border operations against Angolan and Cuban forces. These would continue to serve well throughout the 1980s, but by the time of the Rooikat's introduction, they were all truly obsolete. The T-34-85s the Ratel 85 was designed to counter were largely gone from the battlefield, replaced by the T-54/55 and T-62, against which the Ratel 85 was almost useless. The Rooikat and Ratel ZT3 would completely replace the Ratel 85 in frontline service, with surviving vehicles being relegated to reserve and training roles.



Ratel ZT3

With the end of apartheid and the normalization of relations with South Africa's neighbors, the raison d'être for the Ratel 85 ceased to exist. Having no prospect for follow on sales, all the vehicles were soon scrapped, with only a single surviving example on display at the South African Armour Museum in Bloemfontein.

Cheers,

Logan
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 02:58:39 AM by Logan Hartke »

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #811 on: August 01, 2021, 10:30:11 PM »
Jolly nice work, Logan!  :smiley:  Both the profile anf backstory - first class!
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #812 on: August 02, 2021, 07:11:08 AM »
Excellent concept and execution Logan!

... all the vehicles were soon scrapped ...

Hmmm, or maybe only the turrets were removed and scrapped? The best vehicle hulls then get a 35 mm AA turret or 120 mm Patria NEMO?
The doorbell's ringing, could be the elves
But it's probably the werewolf ...

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #813 on: August 02, 2021, 11:58:25 AM »
Jolly nice work, Logan!  :smiley:  Both the profile anf backstory - first class!


Thanks!

Excellent concept and execution Logan!

... all the vehicles were soon scrapped ...


Hmmm, or maybe only the turrets were removed and scrapped? The best vehicle hulls then get a 35 mm AA turret or 120 mm Patria NEMO?


Thanks, apophenia! I was actually thinking about that earlier today, too. How about these? I thought the ZU-23-2 (inspired by the Bosvark) and the Royal Ordnance AMS (Armored Mortar System) 120mm mortar turret felt a little more "on brand" for the cash-strapped SANDF of the early- to mid-90s.



https://weaponsystems.net/system/533-Bosvark



http://www.military-today.com/artillery/ams_mortar_system.htm

I know the ZU-23-2 looks impossibly huge on the Ratel, but I checked the dimensions twice, scaling it with the ZU-23-2 mount itself and against one mounted on the BTR-DG. That's how big it would be. The ZU-23-2 looks small on the Bosvark because the SAMIL 100 is truly massive for a 6x6 truck.

Here's a Ratel 23 and a Ratel 120.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #814 on: August 03, 2021, 02:58:12 AM »
Those look great! And good call on the ZU-23-2 and Armored Mortar System turrets  :smiley:

My first thought was that the RO AMS turret needed a spacer ring underneath to raise the piece a bit for traverse. But, I suppose, there wouldn't be much call for direct-fire with that 120 mm breech-loader anyway?
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #815 on: August 03, 2021, 03:21:56 AM »
I thought about that, but I don't think it would be all that much of an issue overall. So, if you look at the front of the Ratel, the driver is seated in the middle of the vehicle and the superstructure is raised behind the driver and I intentionally cut it down at that point.



So, it's not like there's a 30 degree deadzone to the front, it's much closer to 10 degrees and you would just need to "hop" the barrel over the driver's compartment as you traverse, which is very easy to setup in the design as create the variant. You could very easily fire directly at targets in front of the vehicle, just not immediately in front of the driver.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #816 on: August 04, 2021, 01:55:02 AM »
Your Ratel 85 reminds me of the real world Cuban BTR-100 which month a T-55 turret on a BTR-60:

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline apophenia

  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #817 on: August 04, 2021, 03:56:09 AM »
Your Ratel 85 reminds me of the real world Cuban BTR-100 which month a T-55 turret on a BTR-60:


And, I would guess, with a similar rationale to Logan's Ratel 85 - being able to self-deploy over distance and at speed.

On Secret Projects, there's a thread on a whif 8x8 Ratel. Not sure how plausible that 8x8 would be if the Ratel's MAN truck components were retained. But, if it were feasible, that could be the basis for a T-55-turreted Ratel 100  :smiley:
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/south-african-ratel-ifv-what-if.26641/

Edit: Had a go at an 8x8 Ratel: http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg187244#msg187244
« Last Edit: August 04, 2021, 11:46:47 AM by apophenia »
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #818 on: August 05, 2021, 08:43:24 AM »
Your Ratel 85 reminds me of the real world Cuban BTR-100 which month a T-55 turret on a BTR-60.

I actually mentioned the "BTR-100" on the What If Forum a couple of days ago when the weight of the T-34-85 turret on a Ratel chassis was questioned:

It's something I took into account when I was looking into this concept. The T-34-85’s turret is 4800kg. The lowest weight I could find for a Ratel was the Ratel 81 mortar carrier, at ~16 tons. The highest weight seemed to be for the Ratel 90 at ~21 tons. I figured a normal Ratel with no interior and a cut down roof would be ~14-15 tons. Slap the 5 ton T-34-85 turret on there and you’re about at a normal Ratel 90’s weight. Now, the Ratels were all designed to be troop carriers, too, but this one is losing that capability entirely. A Ratel 90 had 3+6 configuration with enough food, water, and ammunition for a few days of operations. This would just have its crew of 4, so you’d get back 500 kg in personnel and their supplies.



I think maxed out, this variant might be pushing 23 tons, but that’s in combat configuration with crew, ammunition, fuel, etc. and do that seemed very comparable with a Ratel 90. Actually, one of my inspirations for this concept was the 8x8 Ratel Logistics variant. I was thinking about all the water and fuel it was designed to carry and figured that the base Ratel chassis had to have been pretty impressive and wondered what a similarly cut down 6x6 chassis could have been capable of. I figured it would be at least as heavy as a standard Ratel 90 once you loaded on all the crew and equipment, but probably not all that much more.

I had been reading about the South African Border War recently and some of the armoured vehicle development, and the difficulty in obtaining equipment from abroad due to the sanctions kept coming up when producing AFVs. It seemed to be a frequent source of bottlenecks. Reading about operations themselves, one topic that kept coming up was the small ammunition load on the Eland 90s due to the small size of the vehicle itself. Finally, there were a lot of complaints about trying to use the Ratel 90 as a tank when doctrinally it was supposed to be a fire support vehicle. That low pressure 90mm gun was a great gun for its purpose and was up the the challenge of knocking out T-34-85s, but struggled with T-54/55s. As for the T-62, SADF Ratel and Eland crews were quoted as saying that they didn't want to be on the same map as one.



On operations themselves, however, I read about T-34-85s frequently being captured. Now, the SADF was never able to make much use of them, and I don't think operating even heavily modified captured T-34s would have been worth the trouble. If the SADF could use the ZiS-S-53 85mm ammunition, though, I imagine they wouldn't have been quite as short on main gun ammunition in longer operations. As I mentioned, the picture of the 8x8 Ratel Logistics variant showed how stripped down the chassis could get and I didn't think you'd need the fourth axle for just a T-34-85 turret. I also checked the vehicle width versus a T-34-85's turret ring and there was no problem there, either. Obviously a T-54 turret would be far more capable, but that would also require considerably more extensive modifications to accommodate, as well as not being too frequently encountered in Angola until the mid-80s outside of the 10 seized in 1979.



Rhodesian T55 in the South African camouflage scheme.
https://samilhistory.com/2019/01/03/soviet-made-libyan-tanks-seized-by-south-africa-and-gifted-to-rhodesia/

Putting that on a Ratel would probably require the 8x8 logistics variant and be a much larger vehicle overall. For that, I'm reminded of the recent Cuban "BTR-100", but that would be a completely different project.



Cheers,

Logan

Offline Buzzbomb

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #819 on: August 08, 2021, 08:01:44 AM »
Very interesting discussions.
My first thoughts were around how designs come around again.
A T-55 Turret on an APC chassis is a variant continuation of the Crusader turret on a Staghound armoured car.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #820 on: August 17, 2021, 09:34:41 AM »
Came across these while looking for something completely different, but thought they'd fit here as well.

Ratel in Rwandan service sporting a BPU-1 turret armed with a 14.5mm KPVT heavy machine gun.


SOURCE

Another Rwandan Ratel"special", this time sporting a Ukrainian BAU-23X2 turret with a twin 23mm cannon and a 7.62mm PKT machine gun.


SOURCE
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #821 on: August 18, 2021, 01:51:54 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

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Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #822 on: August 27, 2021, 03:49:35 AM »
The T-34-85s the Ratel 85 was designed to counter were largely gone from the battlefield, replaced by the T-54/55 and T-62, against which the Ratel 85 was almost useless.

I seem to recall that Yugoslavia made a 85mm HEAT shell based on the experience of test firing all of their tank and anti-tank guns at a T-54.

Although I wonder if it'll still be simpler logistically to stick with the Ratel 90 than to import those shells......?  That and, as you laid out, the Rooikat and Ratel ZT3.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 03:54:47 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
  • Rivet-counting whiffer
Re: Logan's Profiles - Ratel 85
« Reply #823 on: August 27, 2021, 07:36:52 AM »
Came across these while looking for something completely different, but thought they'd fit here as well.

Ratel in Rwandan service sporting a BPU-1 turret armed with a 14.5mm KPVT heavy machine gun.


SOURCE
I was familiar with the twin 23mm variant and I think that would work well. I haven't seen the Ratel with the 14.5mm BPU-1 turret, though. That's neat and it reminds me of Yemen's AMLs with the same turret (which would have worked with the Eland, though I can't see much use for it).



The Oryx Handbook of Pre-war Yemeni Fighting Vehicles

I think a Ratel with a 14.5mm gun would at least be an upgrade over the normal command variant with 12.7mm MG without the bulk of the normal 20mm variant.

I seem to recall that Yugoslavia made a 85mm HEAT shell based on the experience of test firing all of their tank and anti-tank guns at a T-54.

Although I wonder if it'll still be simpler logistically to stick with the Ratel 90 than to import those shells......?  That and, as you laid out, the Rooikat and Ratel ZT3.

Well, it's likely that South Africa would have either captured or been able to purchase Soviet-manufacture BK-2M HEAT-FS rounds, which could penetrate ~300 mm of armor, very similar to the 90mm HEAT round used by Eland and Ratel 90s.



Overall, though, the T-34-85 turret is at least a three-man turret versus the two-man turret on the normal Eland and Ratel 90, so you should get faster target acquisition and rate of fire in addition to the greatly increased armor, and ammunition availability in the field.

I'm not saying it would have been practical or worth developing, but it would have at least been interesting.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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Re: Logan's Profiles - 8x8 Scimitar
« Reply #824 on: September 14, 2021, 11:38:27 AM »
Inspired by ysi's 8-wheeled Scorpion, I took my own crack at the concept.

I chose a smaller chassis, the YP-408, from closer to the time period of the CVR(T) family and scaled the turret to match, including a turret ring extension that considers the angled upper hull.



This would be a Dutch variant in place of the M113 C&V (also known as the Lynx or M113 ½). It would increase commonality with the Belgian and British armies and provide greater speed, strategic mobility, and firepower, albeit at the cost of greater size.

Also, I chose the Scimitar turret which I think is better fit and much better looking, but the Scorpion is still an option, too.



I'm calling it the YP-408 Pantserwiel Verkenning, abbreviated as YP-408 PWVK. I don't know about anybody else, but I like the looks of it more than the Bundeswehr's Spähpanzer Luchs of the same era.

Cheers,

Logan