Author Topic: GB Inspiration  (Read 9306 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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GB Inspiration
« on: April 15, 2012, 06:07:27 AM »
Folks,

Since it seems a little quiet here, I though I would start off with a little inspiration thread.  Of course, this probably isn't needed since everyone is quietly working on their creations...

First up some ideas:

  • '82 Falklands War but with CVA-01 and all that that brings with it...
  • '82 Falklands war but what if Argentina did manage to sink one of the British Carriers
  • '82 Falklands but what if the ARA Veinticinco de Mayo was able to play a greater role..A-4s vs SHARs in Air-Air combat?
  • '82 Falklands but with the rest of the Commonwealth also in the fight
  • '82 Falklands but with Victors instead of Vulcans doing the BlackBuck raid

Some pictures:




« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 06:14:51 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Scooterman

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2012, 06:31:08 AM »
I'll add a few....

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2012, 09:28:59 AM »
Ooh...Argentine Phantoms would certainly have been interesting to say the least...I think I may have written a story with some of those once.
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2012, 09:57:50 AM »
Love that phantom!  :-*
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Offline Maverick

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2012, 10:26:24 AM »
I've created quite a few Argentinian & British profiles relating to Corporate over the years.  This was perhaps the most liked:



Regards,

John
Regards,

John

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2012, 06:45:24 PM »
Wicked
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Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 04:53:04 AM »
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline taiidantomcat

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2012, 07:51:29 AM »
"They know you can do anything, So the question is, what don't you do?"

-David Fincher

Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2012, 10:47:52 AM »



LOL. Krusty just happens to have a Falkland Islands map ready to go...

Everyone seems to want to make the UK forces stronger for the Falklands when they already overmatched the Argentineans. It was just poor command that let them down and one should look at some of Sandy Woodward’s ‘ideas’ for taking back the islands before Northwood gave him the script to follow. But what about making the Argentineans stronger?

Their Navy was pretty good all things considering but missed out on playing a big role because they baulked and its pretty easy to baulk in the face of nuclear submarines. Their Air Force lacked a fighter with enough range to stay and fight for Falklands airspace. Their Army had so many systematic problems where does one start.

So easiest change is have them buy something with longer legs (or at least probe and drogue IFR) than the Mirage. According to SIPRI the Argentineans brought 10 Mirage IIIEA, 2 Mirage IIIDA (trainers) and 25 R-530 AAM (useless) in 1970 for delivery in 1972-73. At this time Argentina could buy weapons from the US but they generally did not allow transfer of first line equipment to South America. But buying American means once Carter is in power you have the embargo.

So alternatives to the Mirage III could include rebuilt Vought Crusaders, new Northrop F-5As (to early for F-5Es), Lockheed F-104s, BAC Lightnings and Saab Drakens or Viggens (but would the Swedes sell?). Anything I’ve missed?

Of which the Crusader and Lightning are most likely. The Crusader is a good fit but would be crippled by the US embargo because they couldn’t turn to Israel to keep them flying (like the Skyhawk) and no additional batch could be brought (like the Dagger). The Lightning is most interesting because it’s about the exact opposite of a Sea Harrier. Additional rebuilt ex RAF Lightnings would be available in the late 70s like the Dagger and the Brits would support them right up to the invasion. Problems are lack of endurance but offset by an IFR capability. But this would require greater IFR capability to sustain (B707s) but would pay dividends for the Skyhawks as well.

The Argentinean Air Force with 50 BAC Lightning Mk 53s armed with 200 Shafrir II missiles and supported by several B707 tankers would be quite a threat in 1982. Lack of crew training and poor gun and missile reliability (thanks to poor maintenance) would hold them back but still far more lethal than the can’t refuel in mid-air Mirage and Dagger force. For the SHARs they would be able to train with full and complete knowledge of the Lightning’s performance and have much better avionics and missiles. But they would have to probably stay real low in order to counter the Lightnings. Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 05:40:05 PM by AGRA »

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2012, 03:05:51 PM »
Maybe an scenario or two where the Argentines are successful would be interesting...say they did manage to sink one or both Carriers or the RN did sell the Invincible to Australia...
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Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2012, 04:03:43 PM »
I had an idea a few years ago called ‘Hermes Revenge’ in which they hit the Hermes with the Sheffield strike (she didn’t sink but had to be towed all the way back to Ascension) so the UK called off the operation until the summer of 83. In the mean time they took up the US offer on a second hand carrier and brought Oriskany and leased Lexington. To fly from them the RAF’s F-4K Phantom and Buccaneer units were carrier converted. The UK went back in 83 with four carriers (including Invincible and Illustrious) and lots of extras thanks to eight months of preparation. Argentineans were seriously smashed.

The idea of this scenario is to have Thatcher forced to renege on the dismemberment of the RN and UK shipbuilding and aviation industry. Which she did anyway even after the Falklands. So the RN gets new carriers, new air warfare destroyers, the P.1216 fighter and so on.

Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2012, 06:11:30 PM »
Some random ideas to make the Argentines stronger:

Clemenceau class: Instead of buying Karel Doorman from the Dutch the ARA buys a third Clemenceau new built in France. With an air wing of Jaguar Marine models all delivered in the 1970s with a full arsenal of AM 39 and R 550 missiles and 0 knot WOD launch capability things are much hotter for the RN fleet.

Local Build Type 209s: Rather than go to Thyssen for the design of the TR 1700 for local build the Argentines wisely stay with HDW and launch local construction of Type 209s. Four boats are fully operational in 1982 and all deployed in a ring around East Falklands to counter any British landings.

New 1970 Aircraft: The FAA ordered (real world) 25 A-4Ps, 12 Mirage IIIs and 12 Canberra bombers in 1970. In their place they order 16 Mirage F1As and 16 Mirage F1Cs with license production of additional F1Es. By 1982 there are over 80 Mirage F1s in service all with IFR and advanced guided weapons. With a lack of spares for the first batch of 25 A-4Ps the FAA withdraws these aircraft from frontline service to focus on the Mirage F1.

Mountain Brigades: Rather than deploy the local Buneas Aries brigades to the Falklands the Argentine Army deploys the 5 Mountain Brigade reinforced by other 2 Division units (6 and 8 Brigades). Fully equipped for cold weather warfare and with better trained troops and 40 Falklands mobile Kürassier light tanks these units are far more aggressive in counter attacking British landings.

Bloodhound: In 1968 the Argentineans ordered three batteries of Tiger Cat SAMs. In their place they buy the Bloodhound 21 mobile long range SAM. All three units are deployed to the Falklands and with some unexpected Israeli ECCM capability prove extremely difficult to penetrate. Mounted on hill tops around Port Stanley they provide a bubble of air defence covering most of East Falkland.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 06:13:33 PM by AGRA »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 06:14:10 PM »
Another option might be to have Argentine forces receive more support from other countries...maybe France with more Exocets and aircraft?
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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2012, 06:16:30 PM »
Another idea I have heard (though not yet been able to confirm) is that Australia looked to deploying a squadron of Mirage IIIs to help out.  They were to have deployed via the Pacific rim, though in the end it was decided against it due to the risk of friendly fire...
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Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2012, 07:06:16 PM »
Another idea I have heard (though not yet been able to confirm) is that Australia looked to deploying a squadron of Mirage IIIs to help out.  They were to have deployed via the Pacific rim, though in the end it was decided against it due to the risk of friendly fire...

Is this for real? Where could they have flown from? If Chilean basing was available then RAF Phantoms could be in action.

One of Woodward’s crazy ideas was to land at Clovelly Bay, West Falkland and build an airfield. The RAF would then fly in and the UK would have air superiority. Who would build the airfield and with what and defend it whilst being built during the Antarctic winter was not answered. Yes this is what happens when you put a sub driver in charge of a carrier amphib battle, they have no idea.

RAAF F-111Cs would be a different story. They could fly FB-111 style missions from Ascension with far less tanking than Vulcans and drop 2,000 lb LGBs with Pave Tacks.

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 02:41:22 AM »
It was a rumour I heard a while back whilst in the RAAF though have never been able to confirm.  I believe they would have operated from Chile or similar.  That said, I suspect it may be something that might have been discussed though never officially endorsed...though it does make interesting whiff material ;)
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Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2012, 06:51:08 AM »
It was a rumour I heard a while back whilst in the RAAF though have never been able to confirm.  I believe they would have operated from Chile or similar.  That said, I suspect it may be something that might have been discussed though never officially endorsed...though it does make interesting whiff material ;)

To be honest that sounds like one of the many Zombie Stories that permeate the armed forces. Especially since it involves not just Australia becoming involved in the Falklands War but also Chile. Even a non-aggressive basing of a RAAF Mirage squadron in Chile to enhance their air defence and place more pressure on Argentine homeland forces would require Australian deployment to a widely unpopular military dictatorship. There are also a range of ADF capabilities that would be far more useful to the British Forces before a Mirage unit that would surely be of higher priority.

So for the Falklands Wiff stream of consciousness there are the following Australian options:

F-111: Replace Operation Black Buck with Operation Black Roo with No. 82 Wing deploying to Ascension to fly missions against the Falklands. Daily rate of effort could include two RF-111C flybys and four two ship stike F-111Cs. Of the later one would carry Pave Tack for target designation and the other two internal 2,000 lb Paveway bombs (and just why did USAF have on hand short fin Paveway bombs for internal carriage?). In-flight refuelling for these missions would be provided by four KC-10s rapidly acquired by the RAAF to replace their B707s. RAF Victor tankers would also be based on Ascension supporting large numbers of Falklands bound Hercules transport flights and Nimord maritime recce flights.

HMAS Melbourne: Rushed through a refit (that was cancelled because of the decision to acquire Invincible) HMAS Melbourne set sail from Fremantle to the Falklands arriving in time for the start of hostilities in May 1982. The air wing was modified to a fighter heavy group with 12 A-4G Skyhawks, 4 S-2G Trackers and 8 Sea King Mk 50s. The Trackers provided the task force with an effective sea surveillance capability satisfying the commander and releasing the Sea Harriers and Skyhawks for air superiority and strike.

DDGs: The deployment of Melbourne saw the RAN send two Charles F. Adams class DDGs and two Oliver Hazard Perry class FFGs along as escorts. These ships were soon assigned to the amphibious task force to enhance their air defence and so the twin 127mm guns of the DDGs could be used for NGS. During the landing at San Carlos all four ships made crucial contributions. HMAS Brisbane was used as the decoy gunship with NGS attacks on Darwin and Goose Green when attacked by two flights of Skyhawks and Daggers fought them off shooting down three. A lessor ship like a Type 21 frigate might have been lost.

FFGs: In San Carlos waters the two FFGs provided crucial air defence with their 76mm Oto Gun rapidly responding to the pop up attacks and destroying, damaging and scaring off a number of Argentine attacks. Their Standard missile system could not reacti quick enough to defeat the incoming flights but massacred them on their way out. The Argentine air force quickly named San Carlos Water the valley of death and focused their attacks on ships outside this area.

Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2012, 07:40:41 AM »
What would be the flow on effects of an ADF Falklands as detailed above? Continued carrier capability:

CTOL: Since the RN decides to retain HMS Invincible and after the great showing of HMAS Melbourne in the Falklands the Fraser Government initiates an Australian built replacement. With a design sourced from the US for a new light fleet carrier the ship is ordered from Codock to follow from the HMAS Success build. Melbourne receives another refit and a new US built catapult to keep her in service until 1990. The new Hawke Government supports the project so as to keep the local work and union labour employed. The Australian Frigate Program for two additional FFGs is cancelled and two ships acquired from the US. Williamstown Naval Dockyard is closed in the late 1980s. The new carrier HMAS Australia is launched in 1988 as part of the Bicentennial celebrations but isn’t commissioned until 1992. Cost overruns mean the Navy can’t afford new Hornet fighters so joins with the RNZAF to upgrade the Skyhawks along the lines of Project Kahu.

VTOL: As above but the design is the American Sea Control Ship (as built in Spain as Principe de Asturias) and 24 Sea Harriers are ordered from the UK. The new carrier and air wing are deployed to the Gulf War where they operate alongside the forward deployed naval units. RAN Sea Harriers shoot down Iraqi Mirages attempting to strike the fleet and massacre their missile boat sorties.

Just some more ideas… Should get back to work now!

Offline Volkodav

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2012, 04:33:27 PM »
Could the GrummanE-1 Tracer be operated from Melbourne?  If so would the USN have had any airworthy examples available for rapid transfer to the RAN in 1982?

On the CTOL carrier option the USN still had 4 SCB-125 /27C standard Essexs in the reserve fleet in the mid 80's and considered reactivating some or all of them as part of the 600 ship navy aspirations.  One of these could have been acquired as an interm replacement for Melbourne into the 90's when a new ship could have been delivered.  A COSAG 30000ton Invincible with a parallel deck, bow and sponson cats but no alaskan highway. 

I could see RAN involvement in the Falklands leading to a renewed and closer relationship with the RN, maybe close enough to see a modified Type 23 (Mk 41 and NSSM then ESSM) selected for the ANZAC project and the Type 45 with AEGIS for the AWD project.

Offline AGRA

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2012, 10:59:17 AM »
Could the GrummanE-1 Tracer be operated from Melbourne?  If so would the USN have had any airworthy examples available for rapid transfer to the RAN in 1982?

The Tracer was just within the height of the hangar (8” clearance) and launch weight of the catapult. So conceivably could be operated from HMAS Melbourne. The Tracer was withdrawn from USN service in 1977 and 55 E-1Bs were sent to the Boneyard. There are no dates on their delivery and disposal. They were disposed by being sold to United Aeronautical Corporation to supply Tracker spares but presumably there would be plenty still intact in 1982. It is possible that 4-8 could be rapidly brought out of storage at Davis-Monthan, flown across the Pacific and joined up with RAN pilots and RAF (8 Sqn) GCIs in time to sail on HMAS Melbourne for the Falklands. By the time they cross the Southern Ocean any kinks in the aircraft and the aircrew would be well worked out.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2012, 11:14:08 AM by AGRA »

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: GB Inspiration
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2012, 11:36:18 PM »
I know the build is over but this seemed like the proper place to put this, too bad it wasn't published sooner  :icon_twisted:


Another whiff that almost became reality.
US to loan LPH-2 to RN if they lost a carrier
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