Beyond The Sprues

Modelling => Ideas & Inspiration => Aero-space => Topic started by: GTX_Admin on July 15, 2012, 04:15:09 AM

Title: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 15, 2012, 04:15:09 AM
Hi folks,

A thread dedicated to that Iconic French Lady, the Mirage III.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/jninxnick/aviation/Mirage_III0.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 15, 2012, 04:17:43 AM
To start you off, how about a photo of crew working on that rarely seen Mirage III-ES, three engined (one in rear and two vertically mounted behind pilot, Yak-38 style) ESTOL Mirage ;)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/RAAF_Mirage_III_TRIAD_84_1.JPEG/800px-RAAF_Mirage_III_TRIAD%20_84_1.JPEG)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on July 15, 2012, 04:42:28 AM
Talk about some nice photos!!!  Never new about the ES version; neat  8)

Do you have a date for that first photo?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 15, 2012, 04:50:08 AM
Do you have a date for that first photo?

A flight of 3 Sqn Mirage IIIO's over Malaysia in March 1981...around 2:15pm ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on July 15, 2012, 05:10:58 AM
Smart arse.... ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 15, 2012, 05:15:35 AM
Who? Me? ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on July 15, 2012, 07:49:06 AM
How about a Boeing F-5 family? The Mirage 5 is the F-5A and the IIIE is the F-5E with Kifir like extra intake for the J-79??
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on July 16, 2012, 09:01:38 AM
Yeah I thought of something like that too. In this world, the F-4 Phantom never gets built, so the US Air Force finds itself short of a dogfighter to counter the North Vietnamese MiG-21s et al. They eventually select a licence-built Mirage III: Vought would be the likely US partner since they had a technology transfer agreement with Dassault in real life. The first version is a straight copy for speed, but they then work the design over, adding fixed canards for maneuverability and a J-79 for p/w ratio resulting in a hauntingly familiar aircraft: basically a Kfir with a radar nose....

An Avon-Mirage was seriously offered to the RAAF: how about one for the RAF with AI.23 and Red Tops? It could be a joint development between a less anglophobic Dassault and Fairey, the intention being to provide something cheaper and more exportable than the Lightning.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on July 16, 2012, 11:18:36 AM
Actually, I think Boeing-Wichita would be the most likely partner for US-produced Mirage IIIs since they had a contract with Dassault to produce the Mirage IIIW.  Unfortunately for them, this proposal lost out to the F-5A for the international fighter program.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 16, 2012, 04:58:05 PM
Does someone want to profile some Mirage IIIs in USAF schemes?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on July 17, 2012, 02:49:30 AM
I built a Dutch F5A in the F-16 scheme, and an F-5E in a USMC aggressor desert scheme some time back using the ESCI Mirage IIIE. They are at the back in this pic, sorry it's not brilliant. They are from Glasgow in '07.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 17, 2012, 03:55:08 AM
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mig19_mirage_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on July 17, 2012, 03:59:28 AM
With swept wings
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage3c_mig19_01.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: taiidantomcat on July 19, 2012, 05:28:17 AM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/SAM.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 19, 2012, 06:03:06 AM
That Retro Rafale is an excellent build.  I have the article and I strongly recommend anyone who can to find it and read it.  The picture on the cover only gives you a glimpse of what he did.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on July 19, 2012, 07:14:28 AM
The Maestro Models 1/48th scale resin Draken reconnaissance nose conversions might work on a Mirage III, V, 2K, or the Rafale.  Have to check that out when the parts are delivered next week. 
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on July 19, 2012, 07:40:08 AM
More random ideas:

ZELL Mirage.

Cranked Arrow Mirage: reduce the LE sweep outboard of the notch and fit AAM rails on the tips.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on July 19, 2012, 09:19:26 AM
More random ideas:

ZELL Mirage.

Cranked Arrow Mirage: reduce the LE sweep outboard of the notch and fit AAM rails on the tips.

Mirage III with the wings from the Saab Viggen.  Canards optional.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on July 19, 2012, 09:26:53 AM
What if Dassault worked along the system configuration(s) of the F-102/106?  >:D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on July 19, 2012, 10:05:32 AM
Mirage with vertical intake ramps instead of the "souris"?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on July 19, 2012, 10:42:31 AM
I like the shape of the Mirage enough that I'd simply do a respray, say for instance Raspberry Ripple or plain overall white with light markings.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Cliffy B on July 19, 2012, 11:21:27 AM
Paint one in USAF colors and paint an F-106 in RAAF colors.  Take to a contest and place on two different tables.  See how long the rouse lasts  ;D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: AGRA on July 19, 2012, 12:03:24 PM
What about a high wing Mirage III? Which would be a delta winged Mirage F1. Ohh no infinite loop!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on February 22, 2013, 01:15:36 AM
Some variations with F-5 nose

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage3X_01.jpg)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage3X_02.jpg)
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage3X_03.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on February 22, 2013, 10:08:37 PM
What about the upgrade proposed to the RAAF as an alternative to replacement in the late 70's, I believe it included a RR Viper installed on top of the aft fuselage beneath the tail fin.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 23, 2013, 03:20:49 AM
What about the upgrade proposed to the RAAF as an alternative to replacement in the late 70's, I believe it included a RR Viper installed on top of the aft fuselage beneath the tail fin.

Never heard of that one.  Do you have any more details?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on February 23, 2013, 08:55:02 AM
It was a couple of lines in one of Stewart Wilsons Aust Airpower books, Meteor, Sabre, Mirage from memory.  Interstate at the moment so can't look it up.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 24, 2013, 03:05:31 AM
Ah, found it - been a number of years since I last read that book.  Here's what it says (no pictures...yet ;)):

"...major refurbishing and re-engining alternatives were offered by Israeli Aircraft Industries and in 1970 by Rolls-Royce's Bristol Engines Division who proposed the Mirage IIIO 'Plus'.  their scheme involved installing an afterburning Viper turbojet in its own pod on top of the rear fuselage (rather like a DC-10's central engine), remounting the existing fin on top of that, zero timing the airframe, lengthening the forward fuselage to compensate for the changed centre of gravity and installing extra fuel in that new area of fuselage..."
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 24, 2013, 05:00:59 AM
Maybe a Mirage III Business Jet:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Delta_Bizz_Jet_zps30a863e0.gif)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on February 24, 2013, 06:52:12 AM
Maybe a Mirage III Business Jet:

When you just have to get to yesterday's meeting --- right ?     ;D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 24, 2013, 11:33:15 AM
Why not?  There was a proposal for a F-106 "command staff" transport.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 24, 2013, 12:35:01 PM
Some variations with F-5 nose
Does that F-5 or F-20 nose come with F-20 intakes (as it appears to)?  Those would work with an of the engines suitable for the Mirage III or derivatives (anyone for slipping a F404/F414 into a Dagger or something similar.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 25, 2013, 02:19:06 AM
Provisional Drawing of Mirage IIIO Plus by Jemiba over on Secret Projects.

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Dassault_Mirage-IIIO-PLUS_zps37007e36.gif)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on February 25, 2013, 06:20:24 AM
 :) :-* :)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2013, 03:56:09 AM
Random idea:  Mirage III re-engined with GE F404
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 06, 2013, 07:44:51 AM
While lacking in originality, putting that incredibly long Israeli recce nose from the Kfir on a Mirage III would make a great JMN-grabber.     I liked the idea enough that Heller's Mirage III was ordered in to give it a go.    As to the operator?  Who knows.  Perhaps it'll go into some Anti-cocaine intelligence operations somewhere S. of the US border.   
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2013, 09:00:02 AM
Random idea:  Mirage III re-engined with GE F404

Didn't IAI offer a Kfir re-engined with the Volvo RM-12? Don't think there were any takers, but it would have made an interesting pair with a Singaporean Super-Skyhawk powered by a non-afterburning F404...
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on April 06, 2013, 02:12:56 PM
Random idea:  Mirage III re-engined with GE F404
Didn't IAI propose that under the name Nammer.  It may have been the start of what became the Lavi since their original concept used a F404 and only went to the PW1120 when studies by themselves and others showed the F404 inadequate for how the design was growing.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 06, 2013, 02:40:29 PM
There's an echo in here!  :D

I'm only remembering long-gone magazine articles here, but  I thought the RM-12 Kfir came well after the Lavi - it was an attempt to shift the pool of suplus Kfirs that Israel was having difficulty selling off.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 06, 2013, 03:18:43 PM
Random idea:  Mirage III re-engined with GE F404

Didn't IAI propose that under the name Nammer.  It may have been the start of what became the Lavi since their original concept used a F404 and only went to the PW1120 when studies by themselves and others showed the F404 inadequate for how the design was growing.


Good memory:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/IAI_NAMMER.JPG)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 07, 2013, 04:58:44 AM
So the F404/RM-12 could fit?

And range would improve?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 07, 2013, 05:06:09 AM
ATAR 9C:

Length: 5,900 mm (232 in)
Diameter: 1,000 mm (39 in)
Dry weight: 1,456 kg (3,210 lb)
Maximum thrust:
  42.0 kN (9,440 lbf) military power
  58.9 kN (13,240 lbf) with afterburner
Specific fuel consumption:
  103 kg/(kN·h) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
  207 kg/(kN·h) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

F404/RM12:

Length: 3,912 mm (154 in)
Diameter: 889 mm (35 in)
Dry weight: 1,036 kg (2,282 lb)
Maximum thrust:
  11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
  17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
Specific fuel consumption:
  Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf·h) (82.6 kg/(kN·h))
  Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf·h) (177.5 kg/(kN·h))
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 07, 2013, 05:19:23 AM
I'm surrounded by experts!  :)


Will look for a suitable resin nozzle.   
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 07, 2013, 05:21:06 AM
Another IAI Nammer picture:

(http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/97/kfir2000sn0.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 07, 2013, 05:21:37 AM
I'm surrounded by experts!  :)

Who?  Where?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on April 07, 2013, 05:51:15 AM
Daryl's JMN moment:   How is the fidelity of shape for the ESCI/Scale Craft 1:48 Kfir?   

It just seems like there will be an increased number of them on the market with the new toolings coming available.   There are some Mirage/Kfir hybrids I'd like to do sometime, for example a Swiss hybrid with a similar paint job to Ron Cline's Rafale on Hyperscale.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on April 07, 2013, 07:11:31 AM
I think I have both a 1/72 RM12 from a Gripen kit and a 1/72 Mirage III C.  This could be interesting once I get my new workshop sorted out.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 15, 2013, 02:19:33 AM
Just a cool, inspirational video

Mirage Flightline Butterworth 1986 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQpxKwRgUx4#)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on April 15, 2013, 02:25:52 AM
Interesting the way the inboard u/c doors retract as they power up the engines on the starter: another thing to think about when considering if your "standing" model is standing completely switched off or standing just about to roll....
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 16, 2013, 02:06:23 AM
For anyone who has ever wondered what Fanta Can Scheme looks like:

(http://i607.photobucket.com/albums/tt158/rayqf/Mirage007_zps28941324.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on June 08, 2013, 11:22:53 PM
What are the ports on the nose?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2013, 04:20:20 AM
Camera ports.  Remember that ARDU was a trials unit.  The ports were on both sides, as seen in this classic photo:

(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3467/4564334397_7e868381e3_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2013, 04:22:18 AM
The two seater also looked good in Fanta Can:

(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4070/4564965720_68635dd97b_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2013, 04:34:32 AM
Actually, if you look closely you will see that A3-2 also had a camera looking down/back from the nose:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps3b3e644b.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 09, 2013, 04:37:28 AM
A3-2 didn't always wear Fanta can either.  There was also this scheme for ARDU beforehand:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zpsb6049f8a.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/photo_zps6fcaf23d.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on June 09, 2013, 05:22:26 AM
I really like both of those ARDU schemes. Will probably have to build a Fanta Can at some point!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 09, 2013, 08:42:26 AM
Makes you wonder, if Avro Canada had gone with the single-engined C-104 concept, would it have ended up in RAAF service and these markings?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on July 08, 2013, 06:31:41 AM
Should anyone purchase a Kinetic Kfir and also have an Eduard or HobbyBoss Mirage III, why not graft on the left over extra Kfir nose onto the Mirage III and then paint the machine up in some reasonable operators colors?   Why?  Why not.   ;D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on July 08, 2013, 08:26:28 AM
ATAR 9C:

Length: 5,900 mm (232 in)
Diameter: 1,000 mm (39 in)
Dry weight: 1,456 kg (3,210 lb)
Maximum thrust:
  42.0 kN (9,440 lbf) military power
  58.9 kN (13,240 lbf) with afterburner
Specific fuel consumption:
  103 kg/(kN·h) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
  207 kg/(kN·h) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

F404/RM12:

Length: 3,912 mm (154 in)
Diameter: 889 mm (35 in)
Dry weight: 1,036 kg (2,282 lb)
Maximum thrust:
  11,000 lbf (48.9 kN) military thrust
  17,700 lbf (78.7 kN) with afterburner
Specific fuel consumption:
  Military thrust: 0.81 lb/(lbf·h) (82.6 kg/(kN·h))
  Full afterburner: 1.74 lb/(lbf·h) (177.5 kg/(kN·h))


Wow - I just actually read that and thought about it: an RM-12 engined Mirage would have, in round terms, 1000lb less dry weight, 1500lb more dry thrust and 20% lower fuel consumption, and what's more, in full burner it'd have nearly 4,500lb more thrust!

Ay caramba!  8)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on July 08, 2013, 09:15:09 AM
Quote
Ay caramba! 

Since the RM-12 is Norse, wouldn't that be 'Uffda!!  ;D ;D" ? 

Hmmm.....a Mirage in Swedish Splinter.  Hmmm....
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on July 08, 2013, 10:00:03 AM
I believe the proposal for a F404-powered Kfir is known as "Nammer".
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 08, 2013, 04:16:45 PM
I believe the proposal for a F404-powered Kfir is known as "Nammer".

Correct - see Reply #39
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 18, 2013, 06:32:52 AM
Random Idea:

ROKAF Mirage III in one of these schemes:

(http://www.ka-models.com/image/cache/data/mono01/F-5_2양면1-800x600.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on August 26, 2013, 01:49:20 AM
It was mentioned on this website the need for dedicated recce aircraft had dropped because of pod based equipment.    So with that in mind and stepping back to the 1960's, a forward thinking Khemedi regime could fly Mirage III C or two with recce pods on both outer pylons. 

Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on August 26, 2013, 06:43:22 PM
How about instead of the GAF Mirage IIIEO Australia opted for CAC as the prime and selected the Avon /  Ferranti Airpass options?

Or / then

Once CAC got their mits on the Mirage they re-engineered it with a RR Spey, uprated radar, Sparrow or Sky Flash and Sidewinder for continued production into the 80s
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: cafe on September 09, 2013, 05:00:48 AM
Here is something I've been working on for some time. At this point, I just need to tweak the camo (colors and shapes). It's a 1:200 paper model of GTX and Christopher Cooper's J-79-powered Mirage III+ (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3.msg5#msg5).

Here is also a real-world Mirage IIID.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 09, 2013, 06:59:01 AM
Wicked!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 21, 2013, 10:09:00 PM
Upgrading Mirage-IIIE

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage3X_04.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/mirage3X_04.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 22, 2013, 04:04:26 AM
Different...
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 06, 2013, 09:29:39 AM
Nose Intake

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage_nose_intake.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/mirage_nose_intake.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on December 28, 2013, 02:26:48 AM
Nothing special…just a nice clean photo ;):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/IAI_Finger_2010.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Logan Hartke on December 28, 2013, 02:35:08 AM
Indeed.  A real life profile.

Cheers,

Logan
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on December 28, 2013, 02:46:02 AM
Nose Intake

([url]http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/mirage_nose_intake.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/mirage_nose_intake.jpg.html[/url])


That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 28, 2013, 03:11:41 AM
That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 28, 2013, 03:13:05 AM
That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

We need MORE MiG-21 variants? There's almost enough one each already!  :o
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on December 28, 2013, 03:48:56 AM
That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia

Really? What where when?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on December 28, 2013, 04:56:52 AM
That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!

I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia

Really? What where when?
A-144/1 and A-144/2 MiG-21-based testbeds for the Tu-144 wing designs are what I'm reckoning the reference is to.  Both are available from, if memory serves me correctly, Art Model.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 28, 2013, 04:57:13 AM
That looks astonishingly plausible for a MiG-21 variant, too!


I think you'll find there was a real example Xenia


Really? What where when?


OK, this will make it more presentable;

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa263/kitnut617/Misc%20Photos/Mikoyan_MiG-21I-2Analog_zps76d2b5bf.jpg) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/kitnut617/media/Misc%20Photos/Mikoyan_MiG-21I-2Analog_zps76d2b5bf.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Litvyak on December 28, 2013, 05:00:12 AM
Ah, okay, I knew about that! (I have the *big* MiG-21 book, after all...)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on December 28, 2013, 05:07:56 AM
I think it was to test the wing for the SST though, so not exactly like a true delta

D'oh! Evan's got it ahead of me ---
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Silver Fox on December 28, 2013, 06:16:01 AM
OK, just did some "Walk Around" research on the Mirage III. I confirmed a suspicion I had, will now suffer nightmares for weeks and may lose much of my hair... but have valuable info for anyone modelling a Mirage II.

The main and nose gear doors are rigged in a manner virtually identical to the Dassault Falcon 20's I worked on. After shutdown, the doors will remain locked up, unless released from the mechanical locks. Releasing the doors is needed to properly inspect the various components installed in the bay. On the Falcon 20 (CC-117) we would do it a couple of minutes after shutdown once the pressure bled out of the hydraulic systems. I actually found a picture that shows virtually the same switches and door uplock I am familiar with from the Falcon. Might actually be the same part in the case of the switch.

Feel free to build with doors open or closed... both are right. :)

The nightmares and hair loss I will explain if anyone wants to know just how the Falcon (and presumably Mirage) landing gear retraction sequence works. :)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 05, 2014, 05:01:59 AM
Found online:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SbnOvW9hecU/T3h8m0ahygI/AAAAAAAAAD4/v1PNt2YZB2M/s1600/mirage3_usaf_1.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-30bbbUZE2bw/T3h8vKdRJkI/AAAAAAAAAEA/4cPuqJj60J8/s1600/mirage3_svaf_1.jpg)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BidccvB9C54/T3h81t_MWBI/AAAAAAAAAEI/4nny4irvUgo/s1600/mirage3_luftwaffe_1.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 20, 2014, 07:01:11 AM
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/imagejpg1_zps450fb9eb.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on September 11, 2014, 01:46:22 AM
Overall green RCAF.
Drop tanks and nose from a Kfir.
Possible F-21-like canards

Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on October 05, 2014, 01:05:23 AM
Kinetic Mirage IIIE:   Swedish Splinter, Recce nose, 3 large drop tanks...2 for fuel, 1 for water/methanol injection.

Drop tanks sourced from their Kfir?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on October 05, 2014, 01:38:58 AM
I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 05, 2014, 02:30:35 AM
I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.
Depending on what wing planform the European Shuttle uses, you might want to modify the Mirage III planform to match.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on October 05, 2014, 05:43:27 AM
I idea that I had, and I've got the parts and decals for: ESA shuttle trainer. Two-seat Mirage IIIF in a hi-vis scheme with ESA markings, used to train pilots of the European Shuttle to make dead stick landings in a delta. Got the Falcon 2-seater conversion (vac-form fuselage), got the ESA markings (2 x tiny Ariane 4 kits), now all I need is a Heller IIIE.
Depending on what wing planform the European Shuttle uses, you might want to modify the Mirage III planform to match.

Well I was going to make it easy for myself and say the spaceplane is a pure delta! The use of a Mirage III implies a late 1960s, early 1970s timeframe, so I see it as a relatively small and simple "winged upper stage" with six seats, rather than a US-style "space truck". If it was a 1980s-on project, then it'd be hard to see a reason not to use the Mirage 2000, since it's FBW could be re-programmed to simulate the spaceplane.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 05, 2014, 08:26:46 AM
Late 1960s - early 1970s works well for a pure delta shuttle (indeed, it wasn't until 1972 that the oglive wing appeared on the US shuttle design, having progressed from a straight wing and tail through a pure delta wing.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 05, 2014, 08:31:38 AM
Well Hermes (below) was first proposed in 1975 (before the Mirage 2000) so perhaps it could be the basis for justifying your Mirage III (if you need a justification):

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Hermes_Spaceplane_ESA.jpg)

Maybe you could remove the main tail fin and replace it with a pair of smaller wingtip ones?  Maybe also keep the rocket pack as an additional training aid?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 05, 2014, 10:01:08 AM
Leave the single vertical and ignore the wingtip ones, NASA did that in using the F5D for similar training for the X-20 Dyna-Soar pilots (Neil Armstrong among them).  It would also make for a simpler conversion.  I do agree with the suggestion keeping, or even enlarging, the rocket pack (consider the NF-104).
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on October 05, 2014, 10:14:11 AM
Yep - didn't mention it, but the rocket pack is definately in the plan. The idea is that there's a single store on the centreline that holds extra rocket fuel plus some ballast weight so that the drag/mass/lift relationship of the Mirage is closer to that of the spaceplane.

The background is a rough one that I worked out where an earlier and better-funded ESA does a deal with NASA in the 1960s. Instead of wastefully competing, Europe does the small steps "infrastructure" stuff like a space station and a spaceplane, while NASA concentrates on the cash-hungry beat-the-Soviets-to-the-moon program.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 06, 2014, 02:28:42 AM
Leave the single vertical and ignore the wingtip ones, NASA did that in using the F5D for similar training for the X-20 Dyna-Soar pilots (Neil Armstrong among them).  It would also make for a simpler conversion. 

I was going for the dramatically different look as opposed to realism... ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 23, 2014, 03:03:10 AM
Concept of an updated Mirage III by Motocar:  Amongst other things it has new cockpit, AESA radar, IRST, RD33 engine, CFTs …

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/15414091379_747904421f_o_zps3db13073.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on October 27, 2014, 12:01:48 AM
Why the RD-33.


I took the liberty and suggested to Kinetic they include a couple what-ifs on a future release's decal sheet.
Ah to dream.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 27, 2014, 02:20:20 AM
The RD33 was due to this being a Russian based upgrade.  If you look, it also gets Russian missiles.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on October 27, 2014, 02:21:47 AM
If you look, it also gets Russian missiles.

But Western bombs  ???  which country was the upgrade aimed at ?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 27, 2014, 02:27:39 AM
The Argentine Air Force - Mirage IIIEA + R for Russia
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on October 27, 2014, 07:09:23 AM
Given Russia's involvement with South Africa on a Mirage F.1 update, including a RD33 engine, this is quite plausible, and getting a chance to base aircraft that far south could be of value to Russia's interests.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on October 27, 2014, 07:29:27 AM
Given Russia's involvement with South Africa on a Mirage F.1 update, including a RD33 engine, this is quite plausible, and getting a chance to base aircraft that far south could be of value to Russia's interests.

I can understand the former point.  Such upgrades would generate much needed foreign exchange.  The latter though?

Anyway, with the games that Vlad is playing at the moment and the sanctions being applied, any nation would be hard pressed taking on such a project and sustaining it in the long-term in the face of US opposition.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dams301 on October 28, 2014, 12:54:50 AM
Mirage III with RD-33 already exist (in South Africa like the Mirage F-1) :

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Sif1Q74xh0k/TgOHnyhKKNI/AAAAAAAAJss/QKaIqLcUs48/Super%2520Cheetah%2520D%25202.jpg)

(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/africa/atlas_supercheetah.jpg)

Sorry, haven't found better pics...

Damien
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Daryl J. on November 02, 2014, 06:54:26 AM
It tempts to put rudimentary fins along the lines of the Kfir canards along the long tailpipe fairing of the earlier Mirage III variants.   Position them at 120 degrees off vertical.    I've always thought there was almost enough length there for a full pair of horizontal stabilizers.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 02, 2014, 09:22:39 AM
It tempts to put rudimentary fins along the lines of the Kfir canards along the long tailpipe fairing of the earlier Mirage III variants.   Position them at 120 degrees off vertical.    I've always thought there was almost enough length there for a full pair of horizontal stabilizers.

I've always thought a delta with a V-tail would have possibilities in the days before fly-by-wire. For landing, the V-tail could get around the delta's traditional no-flaps problem by taking over pitch control, thereby allowing the inboard wing surfaces to be deflected downwards as flaps. Then in normal flight, the V-tail would do pure yaw control, with the inboard wing surfaces acting as elevators in the normal way. You don't want the tail doing pitch at high AoA because it would be blanked by the forebody wake just like a T-tail.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on November 09, 2014, 10:33:01 AM
Just read that Denel in South Africa were studying a whole range of improved wings for the Cheetah, including one with wingtip AAM rails:

(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/CheetahACWversions.jpg)

Quote
1 was the in-service Cheetah wing with dogtooth and leading edge extension outside the dogtooth, 2 and 3 were flown. Number 4 was to be the one with the wingtip stations that suffered due to the budget cuts and ending of the programme.



(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/CheetahACW.jpg)


Info from "wilhelm" on this thread: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?65417-Current-Mirage-III-5-50-Operations/page5 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?65417-Current-Mirage-III-5-50-Operations/page5) (post #147)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 09, 2014, 10:41:17 AM
That looks cool.  Could probably model it too.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: kitnut617 on November 09, 2014, 10:49:50 PM
I did that 'kinked' leading edge on my Super Arrow, only it looks like I might have got the point in the wrong place judging by the pics here --
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on May 31, 2015, 05:57:21 AM
Random thought:  how about Indian Air Force Mirage IIIs instead of MiG-21s?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 31, 2015, 09:15:21 AM
Random thought:  how about Indian Air Force Mirage IIIs instead of MiG-21s?
That could make identifying friend or foe rather interesting in conflict with Pakistan, particularly if Pakistan deliberately put their Mirages where they'd tangle with the Indians.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on May 31, 2015, 09:54:24 AM
Random thought:  how about Indian Air Force Mirage IIIs instead of MiG-21s?
That could make identifying friend or foe rather interesting in conflict with Pakistan, particularly if Pakistan deliberately put their Mirages where they'd tangle with the Indians.

You could say the same about the Pakistani's Shenyang J-7s and the Indians' MiG-21s, but that didn't stop them. In the Yom Kippur war, Israel, Egypt and Libya were operating Mirages.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on May 31, 2015, 10:02:19 AM
Point taken.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on September 23, 2015, 02:06:08 AM
1/72 Mirage III + F-4 1/100

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mirage-VI.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mirage-VI.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 23, 2015, 02:47:49 AM
Interesting
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on September 23, 2015, 06:03:11 AM
Interesting
Fairly doable, too, as I believe there are some 1/100 F-4 kits (ISTR Revell Snap-Tite kits in that scale) that could be used.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Weaver on September 23, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
Interesting
Fairly doable, too, as I believe there are some 1/100 F-4 kits (ISTR Revell Snap-Tite kits in that scale) that could be used.

There's also a Tamiya/Ben Hobby one.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on September 24, 2015, 12:16:18 AM
Just a thought, an operational Mirage IIIT updated with canards et al.; possibly also with a M53 engine replacing the TF304.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on October 01, 2015, 10:23:47 AM
Australia starts replacing the Mirage III in the mid 70s as originally planned meaning surplus aircraft are available for transfer to Malaysia and Indonesia to supplement / replace their CAC Sabres. 
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 28, 2015, 11:25:29 AM
Mirage-21 (do not confuse with F-21)

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mirage-21.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mirage-21.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on October 28, 2015, 11:26:56 AM
MirageDraken

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/MirageDraken.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/MirageDraken.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on October 28, 2015, 11:57:32 AM
Those are both REALLY nice!  :-*
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 24, 2016, 06:48:22 AM
Another view of Mirage derived Cheetah proposal with wingtip missiles:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X3yZ5J-QctY/Tfog2nqnoHI/AAAAAAAAJmw/MLUrG0JvYuE/Cheetah%252520-%252520rendering%252520of%252520wing%252520design.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on July 24, 2016, 06:49:55 AM
Close up of Cheetah fitted with SMR-95 (RD-33 derivative):

(http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj563/venoid/cheetah_d_847_3.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 12, 2017, 11:48:57 AM
The RAAF Mirage III story. (http://www.radschool.org.au/Books/the_raaf_mirage_story_opt.pdf)  Interesting reading...
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 13, 2017, 02:07:58 PM
To start you off, how about a photo of crew working on that rarely seen Mirage III-ES, three engined (one in rear and two vertically mounted behind pilot, Yak-38 style) ESTOL Mirage ;)

([url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/RAAF_Mirage_III_TRIAD_84_1.JPEG/800px-RAAF_Mirage_III_TRIAD%20_84_1.JPEG[/url])


Very clever Greg!! ;)

M.A.D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on July 13, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
Found online:

([url]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SbnOvW9hecU/T3h8m0ahygI/AAAAAAAAAD4/v1PNt2YZB2M/s1600/mirage3_usaf_1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-30bbbUZE2bw/T3h8vKdRJkI/AAAAAAAAAEA/4cPuqJj60J8/s1600/mirage3_svaf_1.jpg[/url])
([url]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BidccvB9C54/T3h81t_MWBI/AAAAAAAAAEI/4nny4irvUgo/s1600/mirage3_luftwaffe_1.jpg[/url])


They are impressive profiles!

That USAF Mirage would be the Boeing_Dassault Mirage IIIW, would it not?

M.A.D
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 13, 2017, 05:08:11 PM
Perhaps it was... (http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=3772.msg57615#msg57615)   ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Gingie on July 16, 2017, 03:30:25 AM
Great profiles! Thought I was looking at a Century Series fighter for a second!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 21, 2017, 11:10:46 AM
Toying with MiG  and Mirage

Mirage III tailfin can inprove anything ...
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mig_Mirage01.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mig_Mirage01.jpg.html)

MiG-29 tailfin and canopy ...
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mig_Mirage03.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mig_Mirage03.jpg.html)

Mirages with MiG-21 tailfins ...
(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mig_Mirage04.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mig_Mirage04.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 30, 2017, 10:28:08 AM
Mirage 5 + MiG-23

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/Mirage-V_MiG-23.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/Mirage-V_MiG-23.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: finsrin on November 30, 2017, 01:46:29 PM
Good job on variants. :smiley:
All possible builds.  Use RW schemes and display at shows as if OOB.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 01, 2017, 01:04:50 AM
So much whiffery goodness!  :-*  Canard-delta-Flogger ist the bomb!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on December 02, 2017, 01:41:06 PM
Chin intake early Mirage

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/MirageChinIT.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/MirageChinIT.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on December 02, 2017, 08:31:02 PM
 :-*  :-*  :-*
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ysi_maniac on December 04, 2017, 06:15:14 AM
 :-* :-* :-* :-*
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 22, 2018, 03:03:09 AM
What about an operational Mirage IIIT with TF30?

(http://i62.servimg.com/u/f62/12/42/13/44/miii-t13.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on August 25, 2019, 04:05:44 AM
Another view of the fat arsed Mirage IIIT, this time a two-seater:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner068/Mirage_IIIT2_zpsctatqe3l.jpg)

This is also an interesting example of how just show-horning a bigger engine in doesn't always equate to better performance.  The original SNECMA Atar 09C provided 9,440 lb dry thrust and 13,700 lb thrust with afterburner whereas the TF30 (and its derivatives used in this bird) provided 10,500lb dry/13,890 lb AB initially and later 11,680lb dry/16,755lb AB.  However apparently the Mirage III-T air intakes couldn't cope with the turbofan, and the compressor stalled repeatedly and the resulting performance dropped with top speed being Mach 1.1 and later mach 1.4, compared to the usual Mach 2.2.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on August 25, 2019, 05:35:06 AM
I'd say it was more inlet flow distortion than the fan and compressor were designed to handle.  That gets to be tricky and can take a fair bit of testing and redesign to fix, though it's not impossible as the engines on both the F117 and B-2 have fan designs intended to handle significant flow distortions.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2020, 03:16:56 AM
Does anyone know of a Mirage III NG kit or conversion in 1/48?  We would be mainly looking at the canards and wing leading edge extensions:

(http://www.aviastar.org/pictures/france/dassault_mirage-3ng.gif)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on June 14, 2020, 04:21:12 AM
The canards should be in every Kinetic Mirage III boxing, whether the boxing is for a canard-equipped Miage or not. Assuming the canards of the NG are the same as, for example, on the Swiss Mirage IIIRS.

Never knew about those leading edge extensions. Very interesting!  :smiley:
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2020, 04:42:13 AM
I totally forgot about the Swiss update:

(http://www.grubbyfingersshop.com/walkaround_galleries/DASSAULT_Mirage_IIIS_Walkaround_J-2335_Swiss_Air_Force_Museum_2015/content/bin/images/large/DASSAULT%20-%20MIRAGE%20111S%20-%20WALKAROUND%20-%20J-2335%20-%20SWISS%20-%202015%20-%2003%20-%20GrubbyFingers.jpg)

They do look similar (and would suffice for a build) though may need to be moved forward for the NG:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner152/4CCCB76F-A8B8-4DF0-8E8D-C902D214E77D_4_5005_c_zpsln7xwue8.jpeg)

And they are in the kit you mention:

(https://aeroscale.kitmaker.net/photos/review/12650/016.jpg)

The LERX could probably be scratch built.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2020, 04:43:57 AM
And as a free addition, here is a nice pic of a Swiss Mirage as they started out:

(https://acesflyinghigh.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/dassault_fw_emmen_mirage_iiis_switzerland_-_air_force_an0695824.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 14, 2020, 05:01:11 AM
And I just made the interesting discovery that I don't appear to have a Mirage III kit of any sort in the stash.   Hmmm....
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 14, 2020, 11:24:00 AM
Let the purchasing frenzy begin!  :smiley:
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on June 15, 2020, 07:08:57 AM
<....>
They do look similar (and would suffice for a build) though may need to be moved forward for the NG:

([url]https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner152/4CCCB76F-A8B8-4DF0-8E8D-C902D214E77D_4_5005_c_zpsln7xwue8.jpeg[/url])
<...>


You're right.  :smiley: Would definitely need to be moved forward a bit.

(http://q-zon-fighterplanes.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Dassault-Mirage-III-NG.jpg)

Does change the look considerably. In conjunction with the LERXs, the fuselage looks almost a bit stretched/lengthened.
The good thing is that Kinetic's canards come with their attachment fairings on the canard bits, not on the on the intake parts. Should make it much simpler to move forward.

The nose also looks pointier, more Mirage 5-ish.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 16, 2020, 02:02:11 AM
The prototype Mirage III NG shown was derived from the Mirage 50-01 prototype hence the similarity in look.  Apart from the visually obvious LERX and Canards, the aircraft would have a Thomson-CSF RDM radar, Atar-9K50 engine, Fly-by-wire system from Mirage 2000 and 4 additional hard points under the fuselage.

The Air Vectors image of the Mirage IIING shows the visual differences quite well:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner153/avmir3_1_05_zpsle8glp6a.png)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: ChernayaAkula on June 16, 2020, 01:17:21 PM
Sounds like it would've been quite the performer.  8)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 21, 2020, 03:30:51 AM
More on my oddball Mirage III family there, does anyone know of a conversion for the Mirage Milan in 1/48:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/3_zps7z83nkxi.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/0_zpsfvmv0ezc.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/4_zps3c3bs1bl.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/milan-1_zpsvol31oqz.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/BF2C-04d_zps61yzuoqs.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/milan-2_zpsrfhiuf3q.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 21, 2020, 03:35:35 AM
On a different tangent, I wonder about a RAAF Mirage III fitted for anti-shipping strike with an Exocet such as shown on these:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/Mirage%205PA3_zpsl8ztuhmw.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/images-11_zps2mzxvbeq.jpeg)(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/mirageExocet_zpstb103afc.jpg)

Would be a subtle whiff to confuse people.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on June 21, 2020, 05:42:22 AM
On a different tangent, I wonder about a RAAF Mirage III fitted for anti-shipping strike with an Exocet such as shown on these:
<<<snip>>>
Would be a subtle whiff to confuse people.
Great idea!
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Volkodav on June 21, 2020, 02:51:39 PM
And I just made the interesting discovery that I don't appear to have a Mirage III kit of any sort in the stash.   Hmmm....

You will find a box of assorted Mirage 3 kits in the stash at the precise time you are looking for somewhere to put the new Mirage 3 kits that have just been delivered, including the $3925 resin one you ordered for some reason.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 22, 2020, 01:42:15 AM
And I just made the interesting discovery that I don't appear to have a Mirage III kit of any sort in the stash.   Hmmm....

You will find a box of assorted Mirage 3 kits in the stash at the precise time you are looking for somewhere to put the new Mirage 3 kits that have just been delivered, including the $3925 resin one you ordered for some reason.

You sound like you have had that experience... ???
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on June 22, 2020, 07:54:25 AM
On a different tangent, I wonder about a RAAF Mirage III fitted for anti-shipping strike with an Exocet such as shown on these:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/Mirage%205PA3_zpsl8ztuhmw.jpg)
(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/images-11_zps2mzxvbeq.jpeg)(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/mirageExocet_zpstb103afc.jpg)

Would be a subtle whiff to confuse people.
To go along with RAN Sea Harriers carrying one or two of the same missile?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2020, 01:42:36 AM
Maybe.  The Exocet was quite heavy - some 200kg heavier than the Sea Eagles the SHAR could carrier, though I do suppose they could carry a pair whereas one Exocet would be less in total:

(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner158/UK-%20BAe%20Sea%20Eagle_7_zpss6pokpkm.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 23, 2020, 02:00:42 AM
Your mention of the RAN made me also think of the supposed Mirage IIIM, a carrier-based variant, with catapult spool and arresting hook, for operation with the French Aéronavale.  I am thinking this would have been a feat to achieve and operate but maybe with canards able to add both lift and braking effect and thrust reversers a bit like from the Viggen and maybe also some highlight devices.  Thoughts?  May still be dicey trying from something like HMAS Melbourne...
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Kelmola on June 24, 2020, 06:05:56 AM
The Viggen thrust reverser also automatically activated when the nose wheel hit the ground. Not sure regarding carrier landings if nose gear is supposed to hit the deck before or after the hook catches the wire, but maybe have the reverser in any case be activated by a detecting a tug on the hook? That way if you miss the wires the reverser won't activate even if the nose gear hit the deck and you can hopefully still get airborne for a "bolter", but if you do catch the wire, the plane will stop that much sooner (and with less strain on the arrester gear). This is because if the reverser activated but you didn't catch the wire it would not be enough to stop the plane alone and turning it off would cost priceless fractions of a second.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Old Wombat on June 24, 2020, 05:59:53 PM
Kemola, carrier landings are, basically, a controlled crash-landing &, as the main gear hits the deck, full throttle is applied to the engines in case either a) the hook fails to catch; or b) the hook catches but the wire fails/breaks. This is the only way an aircraft will have even the slightest chance of getting airborne in an emergency. Activating a reverse thrust system is fine, unless something goes wrong, in which case the aircraft is definitely going to be a write off & there's a good chance of the crew suffering serious injury or death.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 25, 2020, 01:24:42 AM
Good point - maybe the thrust reverser was a step too far.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 03:23:37 AM
(https://combatace.com/uploads/gallery/album_558/gallery_12323_558_121023.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/gallery/album_558/gallery_12323_558_71635.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/gallery/album_558/gallery_12323_558_237288.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/gallery/album_558/gallery_12323_558_141453.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 27, 2020, 03:31:30 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/AMIMIRAGE502.jpg&key=f6fdbfc4df63a2f600657d44d994bee7726d5168ab3cefc3aa81b255bb66a302)
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/AMIMIRAGE504.jpg&key=4ef3e173c0d58bbb44c5714c49a4106cb09b35ff90186a3f074b96fd28cd5ca0)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 29, 2020, 03:39:43 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202013/RAFMIRAGEFGA201_zps16126ffc.jpg&key=556598e6d4b8a6b1487c5d80b6b769cf90a6e21cdcf13c0440d1641de2c847c1)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on September 30, 2020, 03:09:52 AM
One that will make some go checking the books...

(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-1822-0-90565900-1384164217.jpg)
(https://combatace.com/uploads/monthly_11_2013/post-1822-0-97164000-1384164234.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 04, 2020, 03:24:36 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/USAFMIRAGE5BA07_zpsf217d141.jpg&key=15d474bde869545c818ad962db9d5dcecf57bbe21200573471907fe5e3ac834f)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 04, 2020, 03:31:45 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520A/USAF%2520MIRAGE%25203B.01_zpskjytpl60.jpg&key=20a8eac1391d69ae67364fcab3f5c5a7348a4e1fc5e9eb6d43169f26b3f09868)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on October 04, 2020, 03:32:41 AM
(https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520A/RCAF%2520MIRAGE%25203B.04_zpsal1rnafw.jpg&key=e5973248f9a7e05327fd8756f723f93e575ebdd719f34f3c7a4fdf33c36e6fb6)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on February 18, 2021, 02:58:47 AM
Quite the load:

(https://images.dassault-aviation.com/f_auto,q_auto,g_center,dpr_auto/wp-auto-upload/2/files/2017/05/1er-vol-mirage-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 18, 2021, 10:42:44 AM
([url]https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%25202011/USAFMIRAGE5BA07_zpsf217d141.jpg&key=15d474bde869545c818ad962db9d5dcecf57bbe21200573471907fe5e3ac834f[/url])

Mirage IIIW?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: elmayerle on February 18, 2021, 10:43:25 AM
([url]https://combatace.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh173/SPINNERS1961/WHAT%2520IF%25202010/WHAT%2520IF%2520ALBUM%2520A/USAF%2520MIRAGE%25203B.01_zpskjytpl60.jpg&key=20a8eac1391d69ae67364fcab3f5c5a7348a4e1fc5e9eb6d43169f26b3f09868[/url])

Mirage IIIWD?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on April 05, 2021, 03:36:37 AM
Cool shot

(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/EF920B1F-6445-414D-A2CA-2902420E3E3E.jpeg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 17, 2021, 03:25:40 AM
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/5E4152B0-6A4D-4379-BC64-37581B7B37B6.jpeg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/e68/GTwiner/4EA6A5F5-64E2-428F-B864-C69936FEFA62.jpeg)

CFBV
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on June 17, 2021, 05:38:05 AM
Thinking of doing a Turkish Mirage 5
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on June 18, 2021, 02:46:38 AM
Thinking of doing a Turkish Mirage 5

Instead of the F-5?  Suggestion for possible scheme:

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Turkish-Stars-NF-5-scaled.jpg?fit=2560%2C1430&ssl=1)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on June 18, 2021, 03:10:20 AM
Thinking of doing a Turkish Mirage 5

Instead of the F-5?  Suggestion for possible scheme:

(https://i0.wp.com/theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Turkish-Stars-NF-5-scaled.jpg?fit=2560%2C1430&ssl=1)

Yes Mirage 5 instead of NF-5 which replaced the Fiat-G-91s, and Mirage IIIEs instead of the F-104Gs. Which of course are replaced by Tornados the Germans tried to sell to Portugal.

It did occur to me that as Greece had Mirage 2K the THK planes would need large ID markings like Israeli and at one time RAAF had. Spookily enough I am using a Nesher  for the base kit  ;)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Empty Handed on July 06, 2021, 06:46:16 PM
Mirage IIIB with a large ventral canoe fairing for testing various SEPR upper stage rocket configurations in support of the French space programme.

TARAN/AIM-4 variant (like the IIIS) for RoCAF.

Tiperons. You can never have enough tiperons.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Rickshaw on July 07, 2021, 09:43:40 PM
The Mirage IIIC originally was fitted with a rocket in it's tail, under the jet engine to enable it to climb high and fast enough to catch Soviet bombers before they dropped their instant sunshine on Paris...
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Empty Handed on July 07, 2021, 10:14:23 PM
Yes a SEPR 841. I was thinking more of a SEPR Stromboli or a Vexin B (albeit of rather short-duration only).

http://www.astronautix.com/s/stromboli.html (http://www.astronautix.com/s/stromboli.html)
http://www.astronautix.com/v/vexinb.html (http://www.astronautix.com/v/vexinb.html)

Should be the hottest ticket in the French test pilot fraternity!

Perusing some of those pages has given me some related ideas like a Mirage IV with something like an Eridan underslung as a proto-ALBM and a L-1049G Constellation modified as a telemetry relay/range instrumentation aircraft with a large EC-18-like nose, named "Big Dipper".
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on November 13, 2021, 05:42:32 AM
More on my oddball Mirage III family there, does anyone know of a conversion for the Mirage Milan in 1/48:



(https://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/GTwiner157/4_zps3c3bs1bl.jpg)





I'm wondering, with the LTV A-7 and Dassault Milan together, what nationality air force trial might have been occuring here?🤔

MAD
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 14, 2021, 01:36:21 AM
I'm wondering, with the LTV A-7 and Dassault Milan together, what nationality air force trial might have been occuring here?🤔

Switzerland - In 1972 the choice for a new fighter was between the Milan and the A-7G Corsair II.  Eventually neither was selected and instead the Swiss Air Force purchased 30 additional, surplus Hawker Hunters in 1973.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: M.A.D on November 14, 2021, 05:46:09 AM
I'm wondering, with the LTV A-7 and Dassault Milan together, what nationality air force trial might have been occuring here?🤔

Switzerland - In 1972 the choice for a new fighter was between the Milan and the A-7G Corsair II.  Eventually neither was selected and instead the Swiss Air Force purchased 30 additional, surplus Hawker Hunters in 1973.

Thanks for your response and clarification Greg 👍

MAD
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on November 19, 2021, 05:23:06 AM
Sorry - this is probably a daft question, but -

If the Boeing-Dassault proposal for the F-5A Freedom Fighter had been built based on the Mirage 5, would it have had an unreheated engine and not need the intake cones? That would leave the reheated Atar or J-79 engine in the F-5E. Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 20, 2021, 12:54:33 AM
I don't think there was ever a proposal for a unrelated engine version....
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on November 20, 2021, 01:51:24 AM
I don't think there was ever a proposal for a unrelated engine version....

No I suspect they were proposed with the Atars. But cannot find real info. I did make a few with standard intakes and exhausts years back, but I have been looking back at some of Spinners artworks where he proposed an unreheated Spey. Have not checked if it will even fit to be honest, but the model I am using has really poor definition so trimed the intake cones off and changed the exhaust. So it looks like the artwork - I suspect I am simply over thinking this with a vengence
Actually the Spey is too wide - I suspect the J-73 would be the way to go


ARTWORK by SPINNERS
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on November 20, 2021, 02:07:59 AM
Well the first Mirage III 001 prototype didn't have the inlet cones/souris.  On September 19, on its 78th sortie, Mirage III 01 reached Mach 1.8 in level flight using its ancillary rocket and then, some two weeks later on October 2 (flight 84), Mach 1.89. The aircraft had reached its upper limit: its air intakes prevented any further increase in speed. It still had reheated Atar though.

(https://images.dassault-aviation.com/h_954,f_auto,q_auto,g_center,dpr_auto,c_fill/wp-auto-upload/2/files/2016/11/MirageIII001_en-vol.jpg)
(https://images.dassault-aviation.com/f_auto,q_auto,g_center,dpr_auto/wp-auto-upload/2/files/2017/03/MirageIII001_profil-droit.jpg)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: Geoff on November 20, 2021, 02:44:25 AM
Thanks, So I will go with the sans souris and no afterburner/reheat. :-*
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 02, 2022, 09:07:15 AM
Mirage 50 with J79

(https://i.imgur.com/uzi88x1.png)
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: GTX_Admin on January 03, 2022, 12:47:24 AM
So essentially a non canard Kfir?
Title: Re: Mirage III Ideas and Inspiration
Post by: dy031101 on January 03, 2022, 05:22:06 AM
So essentially a non canard Kfir?

'Though the Mirage 50 seems inherently more easily-adaptable for the air superiority and interception roles.