Kreigsmarine Carrier Aircraft Possibilities

[Cliffy B]

Hey guys, I'm doing some background research for a project and I need some help.  I'm working on some whiff Kreigsmarine WWII ships, primarily aircraft carrier designs.  Said designs are more akin to CVLs and not full sized fleet CVs.  I've picked those designs simply for production reasons and so it seems, so do the Germans.  Several of them are marked for "commerce warfare/series production".  All have the capacity for about 30 aircraft, 6" guns, full heavy, medium, and light flak outfits and CL size armor.

Here are the designs I found online:  Note - they are NOT to scale.

Source = Random Russian pub found via Google.

Data sheet:  The above designs are the last 3 columns on the right in order from top to bottom.
The 3 designs translate to:
Flugzeugträger für den Handelskrieg = Aircraft carrier for trade war
Flugzeugträger für den Serienbau = Aircraft carrier for series production
Kleiner Flugzeugträger = Small aircraft carrier


Source = Random forum posting (no source given) found via Google.

The design I will be building and have the Germans build in my timeline will be the upper most drawing with a modified island structure and augmented AA armament.  Still debating on whether or not they'd pull the 6" casemates and replace with more 105s or not; thoughts?

Air wing:
The only real aircraft they ever came up with were navalized Me-109s and Ju-87s and new build Fi-67s. 

My question is were there any others explored?  What else could be made carrier capable?  Any paper projects?  If they had developed a carrier program and continued it throughout the war what are some plausible aircraft choices?

I'm working under the prospects that the carrier force would be used to support ocean raiders and provide them with aerial cover against Allied CVs and heavy units that the 11" gunned Battlecruisers couldn't handle themselves.  That being said I feel I need some reliable fighters, dive bombers/torpedo bombers with some decent range and speed.

So far my fighter choices are:
Fw-190
He-100
He-112
Me-309

Attack choices seem to stop at Stukas.

Think any of the Me-210/310/410 designs could have been made carrier capable for special reasons?

Any ideas guys?  I know there has to be other choices but I'm coming up short here.  I seriously doubt the Germans would have accepted foreign designs for licensed production right?

-Mike

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Attack choices seem to stop at Stukas.

What about the Henschel Hs-129?.  With the forward visibility afforded the pilot it should be no problem to land that beast on the GZ :)

[GTX_Admin]

I tend towards the Fw190 mainly because it was a relatively rugged design, relatively easily maintainable (good access panels etc) and equally useful in Air-to-Air and Air-to-Surface rolls (both ground and sea).  This would allow a single platform to fulfil most, if not all, roles - thus more useful when only able to carry a small number.

As much as I like the idea of a twin such as the Bf110/Me-210/310/410 in a carrier role, I simply don't see it happening for such a small carrier design.

Of course another whatif possibility is a late model (G or K) Bf109 in a carrier role - say as a Bf109T-3 or T-4?

[Cliffy B]

Jeff - Thanks for the candidate.  From a quick look the Hs-129 is actually about the same size and weight as the Stuka    Only problem is the Stuka out ranges it.  Compared to the SBD which, is of similar size and horsepower but weighs almost twice as much fully loaded, both the German planes can only report ranges that are HALF of the SBD.  Same size, horsepower yet twice as heavy and TWICE the range?  What was Germany doing different with their designs versus Douglas?  Does it come down to nothing more than fuel economy or is there some design aspect I'm overlooking? 

By the way, you could substitute the SBD with Mitsubishi's Val and the above would still be the same.  Is it simply that the SBD and Val were designed as naval aircraft and the German aircraft weren't or what?  Someone please enlighten me as I'm now very befuddled.

Greg - Me too.  I'm thinking Me-109 and Ju-87 for early war and then upgrading to the Fw-190 for fighter and bomber and something else for torpedoes.  Could a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere....

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Mike, I suspect the range limitations may have something to do with available fuel tankage.  The Hs-129 was intended as a front line combat aircraft where it was just a short hop to start plinking tanks.  Perhaps it is something just that simple? 

[Cliffy B]

Might just be Jeff.  I'll have to see if I can find some fuel capacity numbers.

The issue of operating the Hs-129 though seems like it would work well aboard ship.  Given that it's roughly the same size, weight, and power, and landing gear arrangement of the Stuka the only hurdles I can foresee would be the same ones any land based aircraft pilot would face when it comes to single versus twin engine operation.  Only thing I can think of that would be different would be center of gravity but I'm not sure how that would factor in; ideas?  Am I overlooking anything?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Hi Mike,

Found this little tidbit describing fuel capacity for the Hs-129:

Fuel: Two self-sealing wing tanks each holding 45 Imperial gallons (205 litres) and a single self-sealing fuselage tank of 44 Imperial gallons (200 litres). The Hs 129B-2 was capable of carrying a single droppable auxiliary fuel tank of 33 Imperial gallons (150 litres)

[GTX_Admin]

ould a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere....

The Fw190 could carry a torpedo:




The German torpedo in these cases was, I believe,  the F5B which had a weight of 1,598 - 1,790 lbs. (725 - 812 kg).

[Cliffy B]

Hi Mike,

Found this little tidbit describing fuel capacity for the Hs-129:

Fuel: Two self-sealing wing tanks each holding 45 Imperial gallons (205 litres) and a single self-sealing fuselage tank of 44 Imperial gallons (200 litres). The Hs 129B-2 was capable of carrying a single droppable auxiliary fuel tank of 33 Imperial gallons (150 litres)

Found some numbers for the SBD here: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/dougsbd.html
Fuel capacity internal - 258.1 Imp gal (310 US gal)       
Fuel capacity external - 96.6 Imp gal (116 US gal), equally distributed over 2 underwing drop tanks

Minimum = 258.1 Imp gal
Maximum = 258.1+96.6 = 354.7 Imp gal

Hs-129:
Minimum = 90+44 = 134 Imp gal
Maximum = 90+44+33 = 167 Imp gal

Fw-190: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/fockfw190.html  - Very useful site for fuel capacities 
Fuel capacity internal - 115.25 Imp gal (138.4 US gal) plus provision for 25.3 Imp gal (30.4 US gal) of auxiliary fuel in a rear-fuselage tank       
Fuel capacity external - 66 Imp gal (79.25 US gal) in one centerline drop tank

Minimum = 115.25 Imp gal
Medium = 115.25+25.3 = 140.55 Imp gal
Maximum = 115.25+25.3+66 = 206.55 Imp gal

Seems like gas was the major factor then wouldn't you say?  Wonder how much extra the Hs-129 and Fw-190 could carry internally if the engineers got creative?

Some neat things from the above website for the Fw-190:

1: The Fw 190G-2 was a simple development of the Fw 190G-1 based on the airframe of the Fw 190A-5 with its longer nose section for an overall length of 29 ft 4.25 in (8,95 m). It also had Messerschmidt-designed racks for the underwing drop tanks, which provided for a maximum range of 963 miles (1.550 km). One conversion existed.

2: Focke-Wulf Fw 190G-8    Based on the airframe of the Fw 190A-8 with its 25.3 Imp gal (30.4 US gal; 115 liter) auxiliary tank.

Rüstsätze (field conversion sets):
Fw 190G-8/R4    Powered by 1 × BMW 801D-2 engine with the GM 1 nitrous oxide power-boost system.
Fw 190G-8/R5    Powered by 1 × BMW 801TU engine, rated at 2,000 hp (1.491 kW) for take-off and carrying four ETC 50 underwing racks in addition to the ETC 501 under fuselage rack.

3: Fw 190G-3 = Up to 3,968 lb on three hardpoints:
Center fuselage rated at 3,968 lb, carrying 1 × 3,968 lb (SC-1800) bomb or 1 × 1,102 lb (SC-500) bomb
2 underwing units rated at 551 lb, carrying 2 × 551 lb (SC-250) bombs, or 4 × 110 lb (SC-50) bombs

An all Fw-190 air wing is looking better and better gents; thoughts?  Maybe augment with a few navalized Hs-129s and/or Me-410s for long range recon/heavy strike? 

Me-410: http://www.ww2warbirds.net/ww2htmls/messme410.html
Fuel capacity internal - 1,100 Imp gal (1,321 US gal)
Range - 1,050 miles

Me-410B-5: Experimental Torpedo bomber version
Provision for: 1 × 1,984 lb (900 kg) LT F5b torpedo, or 1 × 1,675 lb (760 kg) LT F5i torpedo, or 1 × 3,968 lb (1.800 kg) SC-1800 bomb, or 2 × 882 lb (400 kg) BT-400 bomb-torpedoes, or 6 × 440 lb (200 kg) BT-200 bomb-torpedoes carried as two under the fuselage and four under the outer wing panels.  Extra fuel amounting to an additional 297 Imp gal.

Based on what I've measured so far, the Fw-190, Hs-129, and Me-410 would all fit aboard the flight decks, elevators, and hangar decks of all 3 CVL designs if provided with folding wings.  Thoughts gents?

[Cliffy B]

Greg - Thank you for those photos of 190s with a fish 

Wonder how well one would handle with a fish and 2 wing mounted drop tanks?

[Volkodav]

ould a 190 carry a torpedo a decent range?  They can carry a 500kg (1102lbs) bomb so maybe a torpedo is possible.  I found a nice long list of German fish on Wiki but NO weights anywhere....

The Fw190 could carry a torpedo:




The German torpedo in these cases was, I believe,  the F5B which had a weight of 1,598 - 1,790 lbs. (725 - 812 kg).

That makes the FW190 look better and better as a carrier aircraft, add an armour piercing bomb and your cruising.  The only issue I could see would be the need for a two seater observation type, a two seater FW190 maybe, or even a carrier version of the FW189 Attack variant that lost out to the Henschel. 
Actually how about the Flettner Fl 282 Kolibri or a larger derivative there of...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flettner_Fl_282

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Greg - Thank you for those photos of 190s with a fish 

Wonder how well one would handle with a fish and 2 wing mounted drop tanks?

Mike,

The two dedicated ground attack variants of the Fw-190 appear to have been capable of lifting a full size torpedo in the 1800 kg (3530 lb) range according to the Wikipedia entries for the Fw-190F and Fw-190G

[GTX_Admin]

Maybe make use of the overwing slipper tanks:

[elmayerle]

How about a navalized Fw-190S-8 for observation and forward control purposes?  With the "R-11" field conversion set, it could also serve as at least a limited nightfighter.

[Cliffy B]

Greg - What model used those, if any specific model, and any idea of their capacity?

Even - Yes, yes, YES!!!  Great idea sir    Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?

[GTX_Admin]

The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit.

[elmayerle]

Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?

I could see that working, though you might need some catapult, or RATO, assist for takeoff with all of that on board

[Cliffy B]

Only issue I can see if range maybe since they pulled the fuselage tank for the 2nd seat...hmmm....  Slipper tanks and drop tank maybe?

I could see that working, though you might need some catapult, or RATO, assist for takeoff with all of that on board

All 3 CVL designs have a pair of bow cats so we're golden in that respect!

Now to find some 1/700 Fw-190s, Hs-219s, and Me-410s!  Skywave has a set with 190s but they're $20+ and you only get 4   Think I'll be scratch building some assemble line planes....oh what fun I've set myself up to have 

[GTX_Admin]

Now to find some 1/700 Fw-190s, Hs-219s, and Me-410s!  Skywave has a set with 190s but they're $20+ and you only get 4   Think I'll be scratch building some assemble line planes....oh what fun I've set myself up to have 

Let me know what you do or find since I might be interested in some too.

[Spey Phantom]

reading up on my history, Germany did have some aircraft carrier plans.

the original plan was to build 2 Graf-Zeppelin class carriers, but there were also plans to convert the Seydlitz, an Admiral Hipper class cruiser.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Seydlitz

the conversion of the oceanliner "Europa" (Flugteugträger I) would have given the German Navy a good fleet of carriers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_aircraft_carrier_I_%281942%29

as for aircraft, the the Bf109T and Ju87C would have formed the backbone of its airwings, allong with a number of smaller Arado and Fiesler scout and torpedo aircraft.

i guess if Germany really followed through on theyre carrier ambitions, i think we would have seen carrier based versions of the Fw190, Me410 and maybe even a Ar234 torpedo bomber. although Germany had no operational carriers during the war, they do were the first ones to equip them with steam catapults, something the Allies only started in the late 40's early 50's.

[The Big Gimper]

The slipper tanks were not used operationally from all accounts though they were trialled on either an A-7 or A-8 (I have seen both referenced).  They supposedly held 270L.  Most importantly though, you can get them as either upgrade conversions or as part of a full kit.

For the builders, you can get the tanks in 1/72 at Lonewulf LW014.



Would the FW-190 use a stinger type arrestor hook or an A-frame?

[ed s]

Great idea. Here's a Me410 torpedo bomber I did a couple years ago.





Build thread
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,26432.0/highlight,me410.html

Ed

[Cliffy B]

Greg - I think I'll be scratch building the planes unless someone has a collection they want to part with?

From looking at dimensions and drawings I think I can carve Fw-190s out of A6M Zeros and come up with an acceptable 190.  I'll need to get a few first but I can get a pack of IJN aircraft (with 12 Zeros) for $5 so...    I'll order soon and see what I can do with them.

Ed S - I knew I saw one of those somewhere before but just couldn't remember where!  :)  What colors did you use?

Nils - I've seen those before.  If you want to see some really crazy designs look up the following: A-I, A-II, A-IIa, A-III, A-IV.

My premise, however realistic or not given treaties and all of that, is the Germens are allowed to convert 2 of their incomplete BB/BCs from WWI in the 1920s after successfully lobbying the treaty powers.  They are converted with the help of Italy and Japan and the Germens learn how to operate CVs and their aircraft and develop an effective scouting force for their fleet.  They envision them working hand in hand with their new "pocket battleships" in a commerce war yet realize that the BB/BC conversion are just plain too big so they explore some cruiser sized CVLs as a way to get more hulls in the water in a shorter amount of time.

So a CVL with about 30 aircraft operating in conjunction with a pocket BB and some CLs and/or some long range DDs would make up their raiding groups.  This would force the Brits to devote more and more heavy surface units to their convoys lessening their ability to conduct other operations.  Given I have the Germens re-building their fleet much sooner than in real life the Brits would probably counter with a new building program of their own so the Brits might be a bit more prepared for a convoy war in the early years then they actually were.

[Weaver]

I agree with everything that's been said pointing to an all-Fw-190 force: it's the ideal choice. The main question to be asked is what kind of operations are contemplated? If it's a case of protecting the commerce-raiders, then an all-Fw-190 air wing looks particularly attractive, since it's main function would be to shoot down recce planes and drive off air attacks: you can imagine how well a Swordfish strike would fair against a Fw-190 CAP....

The option of making a limited dive-bombing/torpedo attack would be useful too. The carrier wouldn't really carry enough aircraft for an effective mass air strike, but if it could harrass shadowing cruisers into losing contact with the raiding group, that would be highly useful.

[Spey Phantom]

looking at the shelves, i remember building a Navalised Heinkel He70, the He.70T
would have been used from German Carriers in the beginning days of the Battle of Britain to sink Royal Navy warships docked in Dover.