Author Topic: Litvyak's profiles  (Read 389040 times)

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
  • Althistorian & profiler...& the 1st lady of whiff
    • Dominion of British Columbia
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #500 on: April 14, 2025, 01:46:44 PM »
A total of 141 Trident 7B were built, with All Nippon Airways having been the launch customer. The Trident 7B was a stretched version of the 7A introduced in 1968, with a fuselage extension of 8 ft 11 in that increased the maximum passenger capacity from 147 to 180. In most other respects it was identical to the 7A. It gained more export success than the 7A - interestingly, whilst nearly half (51 of 103) of 7A production went to BC-based buyers, only 24 7Bs were delivered new to BC airlines all together- only one more than went to the largest single customer, ANA (24). The next largest fleets were delivered to Air Canada and to American carriers Frontier Airlines and Western Airlines, each of which took delivery of eighteen Trident 7Bs from the factory. The first European order for a DHBC Trident variant came from JAT Yugoslav Airlines, the Yugoslav flag carrier opting for the DHBC offer instead of the Douglas DC-9-32 (though they did subsequently turn to Douglas for the DC-9-51 in 1975). In later years, six were converted to Combi configuration and 27 were rebuilt to freighters, with FedEx operating nearly half of the freighters.

Delivered new:
Air Canada (Canada): 18
All Nippon Airways (Japan): 24
Frontier Airlines (USA): 18
Inter-Dominion Air Lines (BC): 13
JAT Yugoslav Airlines (Yugoslavia): 9
Lloyd Aéreo Boliviano (Bolivia): 9
Northern Air/Northern Thunderbird Air (BC): 3
Pacific Southwest Airlines (USA): 12
Pacific Western Airlines (BC/Canada): 10
Panagra Airways (USA): 6
Quebecair (Canada): 5
Western Airlines (USA): 18

Second-hand operators:
ACES Colombia (Colombia): 2
ACI Air Charter International (France): 2
Aero Asia (Pakistan): 1
Aero Continente (Peru): 1
Aero Santa (Peru): 1
Aerolíneas Argentinas (Argentina): 1
Aerolíneas Latinas (Venezuela): 1
AeroRepública (Colombia): 7
AeroSur (Bolivia): 2
Air Atlanta Icelandic (Iceland): 1 (Combi conversion)
Air Botswana (Botswana): 2
Air Charter Service (DR Congo): 1
Air Malta (Malta): 1
Air Transat (Canada): 3
Air Vias (Brazil): 1
Alaska Airlines (USA): 3
Allegro Airlines (Mexico): 2
American International Airways (USA): 3 (freighter conversion)
Amerijet International (USA): 5 (freighter conversion)
Arrow Air (USA): 1 (freighter conversion)
Avianca (Colombia): 4
Aviogenex (Yugoslavia): 1
Bouraq Indonesia (Indonesia): 2
Burlington Northern Railroad (USA): 1
Canadian Airlines International (Canada): 4
Canadian North (Canada): 1
Canair Cargo (Canada): 1 (freighter conversion)
Carnival Airlines (USA): 1
Cayman Airways (West Indies): 1
Continental Airlines (USA): 13
CP Air (BC/Canada): 5
Dart Container Lines (USA): 1
Government of Djibouti: 1
Dominicana (Dominican Republic): 3
Dubrovnik Airline (Croatia): 2
Evergreen International Airlines (BC/USA): 2 (freighter conversion)
Express One (USA): 1 (freighter conversion)
Faucett Peru (Peru): 2
Federal Express (USA): 13 (freighter conversion)
First Air (Canada): 3 (2 Combi conversion, 1 freighter conversion)
Fly Linhas Aéreas (Brazil): 1
Hawkair (BC): 3
Iraqi Airways (Iraq): 3
Itek Air (Kyrgyzstan): 1
Jetall (Canada): 1 (Combi conversion)
Kelowna Flightcraft (BC): 3 (2 Combi conversion)
Ladeco (Chile): 1
Lignes Aériennes Congolaises (DR Congo): 1 (Combi conversion)
Lion Air (Indonesia): 1
Meridian Oil (USA): 1
MGM Grand Air (USA): 3
Nepal Airlines (Nepal): 2
Northern Air Cargo (USA): 1 (freighter conversion)
Omega Air (Netherlands Antilles): 1
Prussian Wings (Prussia): 3
Regentair (USA): 3
Roush Racing (USA): 3 (freighter conversion)
Royal Hawaiian Airlines (USA): 2
Rutaca (Venezuela): 2
SAHSA (Honduras): 1
SAM Colombia (Colombia): 7
South Pacific Island Airways (American Samoa): 2
Star Air (Indonesia): 2
SunCoast Airlines (USA): 3
Sun Pacific International (USA): 1
Talia Airways (Turkey): 1
Torosair (Turkey): 2
Trans Latin Air (Panama): 1
Transair Global (USA): 1 (freighter conversion)
Transmile Air Services (Malaysia): 1 (freighter conversion)
USAir/US Airways (USA): 8
West Caribbean Airways (Colombia): 1
Wings Air (Indonesia): 1
Zambia Airways (Zambia): 2
ZAS Airline of Egypt (Egypt): 3
Zuliana de Aviación (Venezuela): 2

A detailed list of operators, and illustration of every livery ever worn by a Trident 7B, can be found here: https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/DHBC_Trident_7B_operators

Here is a selection of my favourite Trident 7B liveries:


AeroRepública (Colombia)


Air Canada, as delivered


ANA, 1983 livery


Canadian Airlines International


Continental Airlines (ex-Frontier aircraft)


CP Air - orange is beautiful!


Evergreen International, freighter conversion. Evergreen International is still a player in the AltBC world.


Faucett Peru


Frontier Airlines, 1978 livery. Everything Saul Bass designed was great!


Hawkair - Fly the North!


Iraqi Airways, who operated both HS and DHBC Tridents, at various times.


JAT - one of the world's classic liveries, IMO.


Lloyd Aéreo Boliviano - three of LAB's Trident 7Bs were fitted with winglets in later life.


Northern Air, one of the predecessors of Northern Thunderbird Air (formed in 1979 through the merger of Northern Air and Thunderbird Airways).


Northern Thunderbird Air's 1998 livery was, I think, their best.


Prussian Wings briefly operated Tridents and Tu-154s side by side.


L'Oiseau blue - these were passed on to CP Air after its acquisition of Quebecair.


USAir inherited PSA's fleet of Trident 7Bs; in later life, all the 7Bs were assigned to the rather short-lived MetroJet operation based at Baltimore/Washington International Airport.


After the end of the MetroJet experiment, three of the remaining Trident 7Bs were repainted into the standard US Airways livery.


Western Airlines' "swizzle stick" - another of my personal favourite liveries.

RL anecdote re Western Airlines: my first flight on a 727 was with Western, from YVR to LAX. Summer of 1984, first time flying to visit my mother after she moved to California. I was 8 then, but not a newbie to flying, as I'd been aloft since I was a year and a half old, and the previous summer had flown solo as an UM from YVR to Budapest via AMS - CP 747, MA TU3 AMS-BUD, MA TU5 BUD-AMS - and so the aviation bug had already bitten me. Now, I saw the 727, and my first thought was, this looks like a Tu-154, but I was aware enough already to know that nobody in North America would have a Russian aircraft. So I got scared!! I got so, genuinely frightened - because (as far as I knew) the only plane other than a Tu-154 to have three engines was... a DC-10! I don't remember if I cried or not, but I was terrified, and the poor FA was doing her best to comfort me, saying everything will be fine, not to be scared, and then I said, "but it's a DC-10, it's gonna crash!" and she had to take me to see the pilot to tell me it's not a DC-10, to soothe me.  ;D Apparently after that I was a model passenger, though, according to what the FA said to my mum when she delivered me to her.
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

Dominion of BC - https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/British_Columbia

"Bernard, this doesn't say anything!" "Why thank you, Prime Minister."

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #501 on: April 15, 2025, 02:07:32 AM »
Nice! Orange is, indeed, beautiful  :D  Your NT Air livery is my second fav  :smiley:
"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
  • Althistorian & profiler...& the 1st lady of whiff
    • Dominion of British Columbia
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #502 on: May 28, 2025, 01:56:37 PM »
Glad that you liked that quickie Rover ute  :smiley:

Out of curiosity, what other marques were built (or assembled) in the Dominion of British Columbia?

I wonder if this cross-thread quoting will work, but I didn't want to hijack your thread with this... but I'd love to hear your thoughts/feedback on it...


British Columbia Rover-Leyland

British Columbia Rover-Leyland is a British Columbian multinational manufacturer of automobiles headquartered in Lumby, BC. It is the core member of the worldwide BCRL Group, owning manufacturing subsidiaries in the United States, the United Kingdom, the Republic of China, Thailand, Ghana, and Rhodesia-Zimbabwe. BCRL vehicles are sold in over 140 countries around the world.

BC Rover-Leyland also manufactures wheel and landing gear assemblies for Supermarine Aerospace, Sikorsky Helicopters of BC (formerly Yarrows Helicopter), Boeing, and De Havilland Canada.

BCRL hold a 27.6% stake in Inter-Dominion Air Lines, BC's second-largest airline in terms of overseas destinations and a joint flag carrier alongside Air BC, and are also the primary sponsors of the top division of the British Columbia Football League, known as the BCFL Rover-Leyland Division One.

History
As the Second World War drew to a close, Hoffar Aero Engines looked for new ways to make use of its enormous new plant erected in 1943 in Lumby, well away from feared Japanese attack. In this light,

In 1943, at the height of the Second World War and the early stages of the Pacific War, Hoffar Aero Engines opened an enormous new plant in Lumby, a small town near the city of Vernon, well away from feared Japanese attack. HAE was bought in 1948 by the British Armstrong Siddeley, and continued to produce complete aero engines until 1950. As the war drew to a close, HAE – looking for new ways to make use of the vast new plant – Hoffar obtained a licence in 1946 from Whitcomb Locomotive Works of the United States to produce the Whitcomb 65-DE-19A diesel shunting locomotive for the British Columbian market. Preparations for production of the Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire jet engine were begun in 1949 pending an order by the Royal BC Air Force, but after the order failed to materialise, the massive plant was down to producing dwindling numbers of Heron engines and replacement parts for them, and the locomotives - which by their nature had only a limited market, though over 175 were built until production ended in 1956.

Not willing to give up on its investment so soon, Armstrong Siddeley decided to set up production of the Armstrong Siddeley Whitley 18 automobile. To this end, it formed the Hoffar Auto Division, which took over the vast Lumby facility, with the aero engines division returning to the original plant in Dollarton, North Vancouver, to continue producing engines for De Havilland BC and as a parts supplier for the parent (today as the Hoffar Aero Division of BAE Systems), whilst the auto division manufactured the Armstrong Siddeley, and later Alvis, cars. Armstrong Siddeley eventually merged with Bristol to form Bristol-Siddeley, under whom Hoffar Auto expanded to build Alvis, Austin, Wolseley, and Rover cars, Leyland lorries and busses, and Land-Rover offroad vehicles under licence through the 1950s and 1960s. In 1969, Bristol Siddeley sold the entire Hoffar Auto Division to British Leyland,

The new owners, who established their acquisition as a semi-independent subsidiary firm called British Columbia Leyland, expanded the Lumby plant greatly, making it the centre of production for the North American and Caribbean markets. In the days before it became a fully independent company, BC variants generally used the same modifications to UK designs as found on Australian variants. LHD versions were made of all Armstrong-Siddeley and Alvis cars, and after 1962, of the Austin and Wolseley types. These primarily went to the Canadian, West Indian, and Central American markets, though the Alvis types found some success in the US as well. After the BL takeover, all marques were produced in LHD for the North and Central American markets.

After British Leyland was nationalised by the UK government in 1975, BC Leyland was sold in 1977 for the nominal sum of 1 guinea to the BC government, under whose ownership it was renamed British Columbia Rover-Leyland, and though thenceforth it operated completely independently of BL, BCRL continued to manufacture almost exclusively vehicles of BL design. BCRL acquired the rights to the exclusive use of the Austin, Wolseley, Rover, and Leyland names in North, Central, and South America; Land-Rover designs – which had become an independent company in the UK in 1978 – continued to be built under licence for the BC market. After 1977, BCRL assigned the Austin name to compact and mid-sized economy cars, the Wolseley name for for upmarket versions of Austin models and, between 1980 and 1986, for AMC designs adapted for the BC market, the Rover name for mid-sized and larger cars, and Alvis (which name BCRL owned outright) for sports cars; the Leyland name was retained for trucks, busses, and lorries.

In 1979, BCRL began a co-operation with the American Motors Corporation, which included an exchange of powerplants, with BCRL receiving the reliable (but very large) 258 cubic inch inline-6, whilst AMC received BCRL's 3.5L Rover V8, which was a meaningful improvement over AMC's own V8, and which were available in AMC's Concord, Eagle, and Matador models from 1979 to 1984. From 1980, LHD versions of some BCRL models began to be produced at AMC's plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin, for the US and Mexican markets; likewise, BCRL undertook production of some AMC designs for the BC market after 1980. In 1983, AMC sold its Jeep and AM General divisions to Chrysler, and the remainder was bought by BCRL in the following year, becoming Rover-Leyland USA, a wholly-owned subsidiary of BCRL. The name of AMC's signature automobile, the four-wheel drive Eagle, became a marque in its own right, used after 1984 for existing AMC designs and subsequently, for all SUV/crossover types. Thereafter, the Lumby facility has been used to manufacture vehicles for the BC (RHD), Canadian (LHD), and Caribbean markets, whilst LHD cars for the US, Mexican, and Central and South American markets are manufactured at the Kenosha plant.

By 1986 all marques other than Austin, Rover, Eagle, Alvis, and Leyland were discontinued. The Austin name was discontinued after 1995, but revived in 2004 for subcompacts, and the Rover marque was later restricted to compact and larger, though these definitions have been somewhat flexible over the years. The Wolseley marque was resurrected at the beginning of the 21st century for high-end luxury automobiles based on full-size Rover cars.

In July 1988, BCRL bought the British Rover Group Plc when it was privatised, minus the trucks and busses divisions, which had been sold off in 1986 and 1987 respectively, and the Mini marque, which had been spun off into a separate UK-based company in April 1988; The British firm, Leyland Trucks, (re)established in 1996 after the failure of Leyland DAF, was acquired in 1998, completing a circle in which the erstwhile subsidiary became the owner of the former parent company.

The former Rover Group's UK plants were put to work producing vehicles for the British, European, and Africa/Middle East markets, though production of cars for Africa was transferred to plants opened in Ghana and Rhodesia-Zimbabwe in 1990 and 1996 respectively, which assemble vehicles supplied in knock-down form; similar plants were opened in the Republic of China (1992) and Thailand (2003) as well. In 1994, Rover-Leyland USA opened a second plant in Oroville, Washington, which together with the Kenosha facility continues to supply the Americas other than BC, Canada, and the West Indies, as well as Japan.

Regional operations and subsidiaries
* BC Rover-Leyland, factory complex in Lumby, BC: supplies BC, Canada, West Indies, and Japan
* Rover-Leyland USA, factories in Kenosha, WI and Oroville, WA: supplies USA, Mexico, Central and South America
* Rover-Leyland UK, factories in Birmingham (Castle Bromwich, Cofton Hackett, Longbridge), Cowley, Glasgow, Leyland, Lillyhall, Llanelli, and Solihull: supplies UK, Europe, the Middle East, and northwestern Asia (Idel-Ural, Kazakhstan)
* China Rover-Leyland, factory in Pingtung City, Republic of China: supplies ROC, Hong Kong, North and South Korea, Mongolia, and Primoria
* Chonburi Motors, factory in Chonburi, Thailand (50-50 ownership with Charoen Pokphand, a Thai conglomerate): supplies Asian markets not supplied by China Rover-Leyland.

Marques
* Alvis, 1955 to date
* Armstrong-Siddeley, 1950–1959
* Austin, 1959–1995, 2004 to date
* Eagle, 1984 to date
* Leyland, 1969 to date
* Rover, 1966 to date
* Wolseley, 1960–1988, 2005 to date

Aerospace
Hoffar Auto's reentry into the aeronautical industry as an entity independent of its original aero engine parent came in 1954, when De Havilland British Columbia contracted the firm to undertake design and production of the wheel assemblies for the De Havilland BC DHBC-4 Skylark, the first airliner to have been designed and built from the ground up entirely in BC, beginning a relationship with DHBC that continued with the Swan, Trident, and Kehloke airliners, the Vixen jet fighter, and the De Havilland BC DHBC-8 Merganser seaplane; Boeing, who bought out DHBC in 1993, continues to contract construction of some landing gear components to BCRL.

Later, BC Leyland began working with Supermarine BC on the Supermarine Shukopoots family of fighter aircraft, again with the development and manufacture of wheel and landing gear systems. After BC Leyland contracted with De Havilland Canada in 1973 to develop and supply landing gear assemblies for the DHC-7, a new plant dedicated to production of wheels and landing gear for aircraft was opened at Falkland in 1975. Since then, BCRL has continued to supply such assemblies to Supermarine and DHC for diverse projects like the Supermarine Spitfire II fighter, the DHC Dash 8 family of short-haul airliners, for helicopters built by Sikorsky Helicopters of BC (formerly Yarrows Helicopter), and other projects.
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

Dominion of BC - https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/British_Columbia

"Bernard, this doesn't say anything!" "Why thank you, Prime Minister."

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
  • Patterns? What patterns?
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #503 on: May 29, 2025, 04:56:32 AM »
Fabulous stuff, Xen! I particularly like that your story arc begins as HAE hits the inevitable postwar order duldrums. Overall, this is a true work of art  :-*

Now a few nerdy detail questions (in no particular order):

1 - In aviation, Hoffar/BC Leyland emerge as undercarriage design/construction specialists - so, effectively becoming the Héroux-Devtek of BC?

2 - Did the Lumby plant have extensive casting facilities? (This is prompted by that interesting mix of aero engines and locomotives c.1950. Or were Lumby's cast components brought in from elsewhere?)

3 - For automotive, Canada stays LHD but the Dominion of BC never goes through its OTL 1922 switch from RHD? (That certainly simplifies auto exports/imports to and from the Antipodes, Japan, the UK, and whole bunch of former British colonies. Nice! Does your ATL ROC also stay on the left after 1946?)

4 - When British Rover Group's truck and bus divisions were sold off in 1986-87, did BCRL lose its rights to produce those lines? If so, what replaced them in our domestic market?

And now, some random notions ...

A - Still on busses ... for city transit busses, did the Dominion of BC use double-deckers? Some of the Leyland busses had an odd 'notch' in their rears to clear engines. I wondered if such engine bays might eventually evolve into flat diesels? (I'm a fan of the bus and Swedish military use of Volvo's flat-6 diesels.)

B - In Alt BC, is there any need for a relative modern 2.5L L4 engine? (I note that OTL petrol Rover 2.5L doesn't appear until 1985 - a year after Rover's diesel 2.5L.) If yes, read on ...

I was working on a notion for an ALT CA auto industry involving AMC. My idea was developing an mid 1970s 4-cylinder (post '73 oil crisis) on the basis of half of an AMC V8. The starting point was the 1970 5.0L (304 cid) V8. (My assumption was that 'cutting down' the AMC 6-banger to four resulted in too large a displacement - a 258 derivative producing a 2.8L/172 cid 4-cylinder.)

Adapted for your Alt BC RHD, my 304 derivative would 'recycle' the complete LH head from the V8 - which puts the exhaust ports on the passenger's side with the carburettor (later FI) placed on the driver's side. The pistons, rods, etc. would be identical to the 304 but, obviously, the block and crankshaft would be new designs. The result would be a relatively economical 2.5 L 'slant-4' producing about 105 bhp (or 75 hp SAE Net for the US market).

I doubt that I'll proceed with my ALT CA auto industry concept. So, if this of any use to Alt BC ...

Anyway ... a thoroughly enjoyable read, Xen! It feels believable - just enough travails and challenges to avoid the commonest ATL pitfall of everything always going your way. And just a fun idea that a tiny village in the Okanagan (and its surrounding cow fields) have become a global industrial juggernaut!  Hell yeah  :smiley:
"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
  • Althistorian & profiler...& the 1st lady of whiff
    • Dominion of British Columbia
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #504 on: May 29, 2025, 03:38:26 PM »
Fabulous stuff, Xen! I particularly like that your story arc begins as HAE hits the inevitable postwar order duldrums. Overall, this is a true work of art  :-*

Thanks! It was, as always, a lot of fun figuring it out, especially the parts involving learning about all the RW bits and pieces behind it all. The story of BL could be made into a TV series to rival Game of Thrones... I doubt GoT has nearly as many twists and turns and oddities...

Quote
Now a few nerdy detail questions (in no particular order):

1 - In aviation, Hoffar/BC Leyland emerge as undercarriage design/construction specialists - so, effectively becoming the Héroux-Devtek of BC?

Essentially, yes!

Quote
2 - Did the Lumby plant have extensive casting facilities? (This is prompted by that interesting mix of aero engines and locomotives c.1950. Or were Lumby's cast components brought in from elsewhere?)

This is a good question. I'm sure there's some casting capacity, as I expect (almost) everything to make a Heron would've been in easy reach. As to just how much? I'm not sure yet. I'll have to do some mapping work with topos of the area to figure out just how much space there is to work with for the complex in the area adjacent to Lumby proper for the "big part" of the complex, and what goes where. Stamping and assembly are certainly in the main complex (I imagine in a sort of linear arrangement). The engine plant is about 4 miles to the west of town, in Dure Meadows, and in Lavington is the Okanagan Glass Works, which does all manner of glass products including for BCRL, and the Lavington Planer Mills, which does furniture (but I suspect also woodwork for the high-end cars, Wolseleys lately mostly, maybe the top-tier models in the Rover lineup)... in my notes for BC Rail's Lumby Line I have a non-specific "industrial sidings" mentioned at Coldstream Ranch, that could be related or not. Of course, there could be facilities located further away, as long as its along the railway...

As far as casting goes in specific, since you brought the locomotives up: I'm not sure what kind of frame the 65-DE-19A had, I just really like its looks, but I know EMD built their S and N series switchers in the mid 1930s with both cast (SC) and welded (SW) frames... the welded having won out, as the second series only came as SW1 and NW1. If welded, I see no problem, there's plenty of space... if cast frames, well, Vancouver Locomotive Works in Surrey* could have supplied those, as VLW wasn't really doing diesels yet** so wouldn't have seen Hoffar's 65-ton shunters as any sort of competition to their own mainline machines.

* adjacent to BCR Liverpool Yard [RW: CN Thornton Yard], roughly a million square feet in the riverfront from Bolivar Creek west to about 128 St, and however far inland that goes; manufactured steam locomotives back in the day, then later electric locomotives and EMUs (that's where Kálmán Kandó was employed in developing BC Rail's electrification in the 1920s/30s, but that's another story for another day).

**  Not only did VLW supply the bulk of steam locomotives used by the BCR, from 1929 to 1969 VLW built *all* the electric locomotives and EMUs used in BC, but after 1972 a grand total of only 76 electric locomotives were built by VLW, having switched over to diesel and electric multiple units... most locomotives since then all come from abroad. Diesel production started in the later 1950s with the DE-6-33 family, a North Americanised version of British Rail's "Deltic" (so not dual-cab, but single-cab A units and cabless B units like most mainline diesels made in North America in the 1940s and 1950s). VLW did rebuilds of GE U-Boats for the NWP*** in 2000, and I *think* they did build a small number those under licence in the 1960s/70s (but I don't recall offhand), but after the end of steam locomotives, aside from the Deltics their focus was electrics and MU sets.

*** NWP = North Western Pacific Railroad, formed in 1998 through the merger of the Southern Pacific Railroad and the Chicago, Milwaukee & North Western Railroad (itself the result of the previous merger of the Milwaukee Road and the Chicago & North Western). NWP has a minimal presence in BC: the line from Mission south to Huntingdon/Sumas, WA (RW: CPR) is their only presence in Western BC. In the east, the Milwaukee Road acquired the line from Coeur d'Alene, Idaho through Jennings, Montana to Elko and on to Michel after buying the Crowsnest Southern Railway in 1911 (the Elko-Michel section was closed in 1929), and this line was extended from Elko to Flathead when a coking-coal mine was opened there in 1961; this line also has a branch line to another mine at Outlier Ridge. The Milwaukee also acquired a line from Coeur d'Alene to the BC/US border at Metaline Falls, WA/Nelway, BC in 1916 through the acquisition of the Idaho & Washington Northern Railroad, and then in 1922 absorbed the Kootenay & Pend d'Oreille Valley Railway which went from Nelway to Castlegar. This is the extent of the NWP in BC, though it is of course a vast operation in the US (with HSTs in California, plenty of electrification, and one of the very few major railways in the US to not delegate passenger services to Amtrak).

Quote
3 - For automotive, Canada stays LHD but the Dominion of BC never goes through its OTL 1922 switch from RHD? (That certainly simplifies auto exports/imports to and from the Antipodes, Japan, the UK, and whole bunch of former British colonies. Nice! Does your ATL ROC also stay on the left after 1946?)

Yeah, BC stays RHD, so I imagine the border crossings are a bit interesting to accomodate the crossovers (I'm picturing something like traffic lights/intersection at smaller/less busy crossings, and over/underpasses at the busy places.

ROC: never occurred to me that they were on the left, though makes sense given they were under Japanese rule. I don't know . I might rethink Asia a bit: for Africa, the Ghana plant covers the LHD part of the continent, and RZ covers the RHD countries; could be that Chonburi Motors is covering RHD Asia and China Rover-Leyland are supplying the LHD world, in which case... yeah, I think ROC switched over.

Quote
4 - When British Rover Group's truck and bus divisions were sold off in 1986-87, did BCRL lose its rights to produce those lines?

I haven't yet done much (i.e. any) work on Leyland products made in BC, but I expect that since DAF has never had much if any presence in North America, I think they would have been amenable to letting BCRL keep building anything that was already in production in BC at that time, and then independently further developed as needed, for the North American market (in which I include the West Indies)...

Quote
If so, what replaced them in our domestic market?

Well, trucks/HGVs are well covered, with the GM-owned Bedford plant in Blaenau, and Hayes and Pacific in Vancouver.

Quote
A - Still on busses ... for city transit busses, did the Dominion of BC use double-deckers? Some of the Leyland busses had an odd 'notch' in their rears to clear engines. I wondered if such engine bays might eventually evolve into flat diesels? (I'm a fan of the bus and Swedish military use of Volvo's flat-6 diesels.)

Busses - although an interest of mine, too - aren't something I've done much work with yet (aside from city bus routes in the GVRD and Greater Blaenau). So, off the cuff development: Leyland and Bedford were the big postwar suppliers (for Bedford, I'm envisioning RHD versions of GMC busses, I love the Fishbowl too much not to do that), with maybe some local transit companies (prior to the formation of the Urban Transit Authority) having bought from other suppliers (would Prevost, Flexibl, Fageol, Flyer have bothered to do RHD just for BC? The Canadian ones, maybe, after the British Columbia and Canada Act of 1957 which created the free trade zone... BC after all is much more populated *there* than *here*). Now, I'm thinking that after Volvo acquired Leyland Bus, maybe they hoped to get their own piece of the North American pie, so BCRL had to discontinue production of Leyland busses... now, I know that the Japan Auto Terminal was opened in 1986 (on the south shore of Lulu Island, near Finn Slough/Fraser Wharves), after the trade agreement between BC and Japan on motor vehicles, so I'm thinking that Volvo forcing the end of Leyland busses in BC opened things up for Japanese manufacturers (and they have some cool busses there!).

Continuing: since it's GM, and since there's no restrictions on trade between BC and Canada (effectively a single market arrangement, more or less... things are still in the handwavey quod assumpsit, assumpsit state), at some point GM decide to consolidate their bus-building operations, so production of busses in Blaenau ended it 1979, and BC was supplied from the St-Eustache plant. Et cetera et cetera as things happened *here*, St-Eustache is now Nova Bus, and still producing RHD busses for BC (and though in a roundabout way, Volvo did end up getting into the BC bus market in a major way).

So there we have it: transit busses nowadays all are sourced from abroad, primarily Canada or Japan...

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B - In Alt BC, is there any need for a relative modern 2.5L L4 engine? (I note that OTL petrol Rover 2.5L doesn't appear until 1985 - a year after Rover's diesel 2.5L.) If yes, read on ...

I was working on a notion for an ALT CA auto industry involving AMC. My idea was developing an mid 1970s 4-cylinder (post '73 oil crisis) on the basis of half of an AMC V8. The starting point was the 1970 5.0L (304 cid) V8. (My assumption was that 'cutting down' the AMC 6-banger to four resulted in too large a displacement - a 258 derivative producing a 2.8L/172 cid 4-cylinder.)

Adapted for your Alt BC RHD, my 304 derivative would 'recycle' the complete LH head from the V8 - which puts the exhaust ports on the passenger's side with the carburettor (later FI) placed on the driver's side. The pistons, rods, etc. would be identical to the 304 but, obviously, the block and crankshaft would be new designs. The result would be a relatively economical 2.5 L 'slant-4' producing about 105 bhp (or 75 hp SAE Net for the US market).

I doubt that I'll proceed with my ALT CA auto industry concept. So, if this of any use to Alt BC ...

First off, quickly: yeah, this is great - I've been trying to brain up more motivations for the BC Leyland/AMC cooperation of 1979 (which was partly motivated by my love of the look of the late 2-door Matador, plus a general soft spot for AMC)... sure there was the engine swap that had some AMC models having Kenosha-made Rover V8 as an option (outside of California), and production in BC of the Matador as the Wolseley Matador (2 door) and Wolseley Barcelona (4 door), but although the AMC inline 6 went BC-wards, there wasn't much use of it or the AMC V8 prior to BCRL's acquisition of AMC other than in the 1979-1981 Rover 4200 and 5900 (Rover P8 design, LHD only with AMC engines for US only sales) - it was used more after 1984, of course, particularly in the Eagle Rambler (as the AMC Eagle was renamed) and the Eagle Concord, but not past 1988...

Rover's 2.5L petrol and diesel engines were, AFAIK, used only in Land-Rovers and Freight Rovers; the first 2.5L in Rover cars (*there* was the KV6 V6s from 1997), and I didn't think I was missing it, but your AMC-derived slant-4 idea might just fit something...

The Austin Allegro came to BC in 1973 (without the square steering wheel!) with either a 1.3 L A-series I4 (69 bhp) or 1.75 L E-series I6 (76 bhp) engine, replaced by the Mk II in 1975 with the same engine options. The Morris Marina came to BC in 1973 as well (but named Austin Okanagan, which name goes back to 1966 on the wagon versions of the 1100 and 1300, and later became the 'default' name for Austin utes), but only as 5-door wagon and 2-door ute variants, with the same engine options as the Allegro, and like the Allegro, got a facelift in 1975.

The Allegro Mk II was produced from 1975 to 1979, and the Marina-based Okanagan from 1975-1977, when it got yet another facelift. As things stand now, the 1977 Okanagan remained in production to 1984 with the same 1.3 I4 and 1.75L I6 options. The Allegro, on the other hand, had the Mk 3 version appear in 1979 - still having both the 1.3 and 1.75 options, but adding a 1.1 L (46 bhp A-series) and a 1.5 L (75 bhp A-series) engines as options, and in 1981 adding the 1.7HL, which had the same 1.75 L A-series engine, but producing 90 bhp.

That's what's in my notes at the moment. But taking your AMC slant-4 into account, perhaps that was one of the motivations for BCRL to cooperate with AMC: getting that engine into the Allegro and the Okanagan! So in 1979, the Allegro Mk 3 is introduced (in BC, only with the 4 round headlamps), with the familiar 1.3 L I4 still available, but dropping the 6-cylinder option; instead, there are new options to be had in the 1.1 L and 1.5 L A-series I4 --- --- Now that I think about it more, I'm not sure about the 1.1 L for North America... I know there was even a 1.0 L option, but I mean... even the bitty little 1st generation Honda Civic had a bigger plant than that --- --- yeah forget it: instead, there was a new option to be had in the 1.5 L A-series... and for those wanting more brawn, there was the 2.5 L AMC slant-4, with 105 bhp will I expect comfortably get an Allegro up to 105 mph or so. As for the Okanagan, the UK's 1977 facelift is delayed in BC, appearing on the 1979 versions of the Okanagan wagon and ute; the 1.3 L is dropped, leaving the 1.75 L E-series and adding the 2.5 L AMC as the engine options. The 1.3 L Allegro is discontinued in 1982, the others in 1984.

And then, it subsequent years, the AMC slant-4 and its derivatives can replace the BL O-series engines used through the 80s and early 90s on the Austin Dogwood [Ambassador, later Montego], the Montego-based Okanagan ute, the Eagle Spirit (US versions of the Montego-based Dogwood), and available as an option on the 1984-1986 Eagle Concord [which I had initially given the O series to replace the GM Iron Duke that was the low-end option in the Concord)...

... anyways, thanks! You've given the BCRL-AMC cooperation a serious reason to exist! :)

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Anyway ... a thoroughly enjoyable read, Xen! It feels believable - just enough travails and challenges to avoid the commonest ATL pitfall of everything always going your way.

Yeah, that's something I've been trying to avoid from the start, is why the DHBC story ended the way it did, with the Boeing takeover and cancellation of the Kehloke (I guess DHBC was kinda doing a BL thing, and having far too many available variations available with the Trident, instead of concentrating on one or two sizes, though there were other issues there, too, like the Merganser being rather a financial black hole...), similarly with Supermarine faltering after the success that was the Shukopoots, the Spitfire II was a bit of a misfire - but thanks to them having taken the Trident type certs on to keep the military Tridents going (and still supporing civilian Trident operators), they're still around, and there's a bit of a phoenix story in the works for them

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And just a fun idea that a tiny village in the Okanagan (and its surrounding cow fields) have become a global industrial juggernaut!  Hell yeah  :smiley:

 :D it definitely is fun, thinking of such things! But has a secondary benefit, too: explaining just *why* this or that particular railway line is still there and operational, or why there's much more population, etc... to end this post by tying things back to the beginning, I still need to flesh out more of why Valemount is a reasonably significant city, well, perhaps as  contributing factor, somewhere along the way BCRL opened a plant of up there to supply components of some sort... or an independent company, that supplies that particular widget to various manufacturers... or maybe Hayes or Pacific moved up there from Vancouver? (Maybe both of those moved: one to Valemount, the other to one of the New Towns in the north - Meziadin, maybe, or Gitlaxt'aamiks...)
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

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Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #505 on: May 29, 2025, 11:50:34 PM »
An addition: BC Leyland also did production of the Triumph TR7. (This text subject to change in details...)

In BC, Alvis was the primary sports and tourer marque, with the TD21 from 1959 to 1964 (Park Ward design, Srs I only), the TE21 from 1964 to 1966 (UK 3 Litre Srs III), the TF21 in 1966-1967 (UK Srs IV), and the TG21 from 1967 to 1971 (UK Srs IV with the 1967 Graber-designed body).

In 1969, Alvis introduced the ZA, a productionised version of the Zagato-designed Rover 2000TCZ, with the ZA20 powered by the twin-carb Rover I4 producing 114 bhp, and the ZA35 coming the following year, with the 3.5 L Rover V8 putting out 137 bhp; both were discontinued in 1974 without a real replacement.

Also in 1970, Alvis launched its V series with the VA22 and VA35 [RW: Rover P6BS design as the actually-built prototype]. The VA22 was powered by a new 2.2 L version of the Rover straight-4 (later used on the Rover 2200TC) making 127 bhp/129 mph, and the VA35 with the 3.5 L V8 with 148 bhp/131 mph. These were replaced in 1975 by the VB22 and VB35, basically the same cars but with a revamped body [RW: the mocked-up Rover P9 design); in 1976 came the VB35X, also with the Rover V8 but tuned to 185 bhp for 144 mph, produced in very limited numbers. All three of these remained in production until 1979, when replaced by the VC series (slightly tweaked VBs, minor improvements and styling tweaks to refresh things a bit).

It was during the production of the V series that, owing to the success of the TR6 in the US, BL opted to produce the TR7 simultaneously in the UK and in BC, for the North American market. So, from 1974, the TR7 was produced in BC, with the vast majority being LHD for the US and Canada, powered by UK-made Triumph slant-4: bog-standard US-spec TR7, except made in BC, 92 bhp/106 mph.  After BL sold BCL to BC in 1977, production continued for another to use up the Triumph engine stock that had already been supplied. In 1979 only, a limited number of TR7s were made with the AMC slant-4, but this was quickly discontinued in favour of a new variant of the Alvis VC family with the AMC engine, called the VC14 (although the 2.5 L AMC engine was bigger than the 2.2 L in the VC22, and the numbers in the designation originally reflected the engine's displacement, it was decided that since the AMC engine produced less power than the 2.2, to call it "VC25" might be misleading. So VC14 was chosen, the 1 indicating 100 bhp, the 4 marking the number of cylinders).

There's more Alvis stuff, but that's all unrelated, so can come another time - what's here is just a vehicle for explaining the brief existence of Triumph as a BC marque.
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

Dominion of BC - https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/British_Columbia

"Bernard, this doesn't say anything!" "Why thank you, Prime Minister."

Offline apophenia

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #506 on: May 30, 2025, 07:28:53 AM »
Some random responses ...

Your mention of furniture-maker Lavington Planer Mills providing woodwork for high-end cars has me imagining Rovers and Wolseleys also featuring Okanagan fruit wood veneer panels. Cherry veneers are lovely, of course. Of the more exotic veneers, apple and plum can be quite dramatic while pear and peach grains are a bit dull. (I don't think I've ever heard of a nectarine wood veneer.)

On the Whitcomb 65-DE-19A frame, I'm not sure but the trucks were of I-beam type. So, I suspect that the frames were also welded (or riveted) I-beam constructions. Since the original US military requirement emphasized quick, modular assembly and light weight (for that power), I guess the question is: Would cast or welded frames be simpler and lighter?

BTW, there seems to have been some durability issues with the twin Buda diesels in postwar use. Maybe those DCS-1879 engines get replaced in the domestic version?

Interesting about your Japan Auto Terminal - Finn Slough being further downstream than the RW Richmond Terminal (and, of course, AAT on Annacis Is.). Mention of Finn Slough also brings up a swirl of memories. As a kid, Dyke Road was a favorite hang-out spot (back then, London Farm was an empty 'haunted house'). Later, as car-driving teens, we'd hit Dyke Road at night to do things parents didn't approve of. Once chased away from the river's edge by the cops, we'd head east and deke up Finn Road towards the Slough. Then, wait for the RCMP and hit the 'repeat' button ... [/nostalgia]

With mention of Valemount as a substantial city and the New Towns in the north, another question arises: Even allowing for overall population growth, does this indicate that industry (and business in general) is less concentrated in the Lower Mainland and the Island Highway strip?

I'm glad that you liked my half-an-AMC V8 concept  :D

Looking at online images of the Marina, there appears to be plenty of space under the bonnet for that slat-4 in your Okanagan. If adding brawn is your objective, I note that RW Marina TCs had twin carbs. That would be a simply way to up the ommph. But that brings up transmissions. If automatics are an option, maybe consider a kick-down 2-bbl (ie: half of a 304 44-bbl).

I'll get back to you about 'The Wedge'  ;)
"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
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    • Dominion of British Columbia
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #507 on: May 30, 2025, 12:38:02 PM »
Some random responses ...

Your mention of furniture-maker Lavington Planer Mills providing woodwork for high-end cars has me imagining Rovers and Wolseleys also featuring Okanagan fruit wood veneer panels. Cherry veneers are lovely, of course. Of the more exotic veneers, apple and plum can be quite dramatic while pear and peach grains are a bit dull. (I don't think I've ever heard of a nectarine wood veneer.)

Apple veneer is really nice, yeah - and looking online, I think I like the look of pear, too. So yes, definitely the apple and pearwood veneers are highlighten in the marketing materials for Wolseleys and top-level Rover trim packages!

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On the Whitcomb 65-DE-19A frame, I'm not sure but the trucks were of I-beam type. So, I suspect that the frames were also welded (or riveted) I-beam constructions. Since the original US military requirement emphasized quick, modular assembly and light weight (for that power), I guess the question is: Would cast or welded frames be simpler and lighter?

BTW, there seems to have been some durability issues with the twin Buda diesels in postwar use. Maybe those DCS-1879 engines get replaced in the domestic version?

I haven't studied the Whitcomb locomotives in depth, though I know that the Dutch Railways found theirs troublesome so didn't use them very long. So probably the Hoffar-built 65-DE-19As had other engines.

Doing a quick bit of looking around, I see a few possible options:

1. Twin Detroit Diesel 6-71 - would be a significant reduction in power at 228 hp@2100 rpm compared to the Buda, but known quantity for reliability, and fits very easily, since less than 500 cubic inches compared to the Buda's 1879...  and still better output than the GE 65-tonner

2. Single EMD 6-567B - 600 hp, so close but still not as powerful; question being is if it would fit in the available space? Extremely reliable, however.

3. Pair of Caterpillar D342 6-cylinders, 200 hp each - same engine fit as on the three GE 44-tonners built for CN (and used in RW BC)

4. Pair of English Electric 6K, 350 hp each, as used on the small Dutch Class 500 shunters - should comfortably fit in the Whitcomb body.

This is the existing info on these:
* 50 were built for BC Rail (20 in 1946-1947, with the Buda engines, 30 in 1950-1952 - no details written thus far, but these can be with the other engine fit); all retired between 1975 and 1979;

* 60 were built for the Washington & British Columbia Ry (again in two batches betwen 1946 and 1951), retired between 1976 and 1981

* 18 built for the RBCN Railway flotilla between 1946 and 1950 as the K-class; first batch of 6 had pendant numbers V310-315 (Kamloops group), second batch was V316-V327 (Keremeyus group), retired between 1987 and 1992

* 5 built for the Wellington Colliery Railway in 1955; remained in service as the railway's only locomotives until BC Rail took it over in 1981, and the locos were retired/sold

* 5 built for the BC Army Railway Regiment in 1955. One was assigned to Army Depot Rocky Point, four to Fort Inkawthia (Spuzzum); one was sent to Takla Landing in 1970 for the construction of the railway line from Takla to Fort Tsayta (about 19 miles), this stayed up north, and was supplemented by three Canadian-built SW1500s delivered in 1971. All five of the 65-DE-19As were rebuilt with unspecified new engines in 1982-1983, and retired in 2019-2020, replaced by standard-gauge versions of the Japanese DD200 type ordered jointly with the RBCNR

* 8 built for the Menzies Bay Railway 1950-1952; three have been re-engined and remain in service

* 9 built for the Skeena Pacific Railway 1953-1955; after the retirement of the SPR's last steam locomotives in 1955, mainline operations on the SPR have been entirely electric-hauled; the fleet of diesels (these nine, three BCR shop-builts acquired second-hand in 1952 and all disposed of by 1969, and a CLC 44-tonner acquired from CP Rail in 1969 and retired in 1987) are used for yardwork, short wayfreights, and work trains. All nine were rebuilt in the late 80s and remain in service.

* An unknown number built for industrial and forestry use.

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Interesting about your Japan Auto Terminal - Finn Slough being further downstream than the RW Richmond Terminal (and, of course, AAT on Annacis Is.).

The AAT site being occupited by De Havilland (and later Fairey BC) rules its use for an auto terminal out. The Guichon Auto Terminal in Ladner was opened in 1970 for the landing of mostly Holdens and Aussie Fords (these being the two firms' way of getting around the strict tariffs), and the first wave of Japanese cars, until the J/BC deal meant a massive increase in those, necessitating the new terminal (they were replaced at GAT by Koreans when Hyundai started to show up in the later 80s).

To better specify the location of the JAT: BC Rail's Lulu Island Line (RW: CN) runs down Shell Road to the South Triangle, where the Finn Slough Spur starts (running 0.9 miles to Regal Terminals); South Triangle is Milepost 15.7 (from the official start point of the line, the Fraser River Bridge in New West). The line then swung east along the riverside, to Fraser Wharves (MP 17.4), and in 1959 it was extended from there to the British American petrochemical terminal at MP 18.9. From there the line loops back through Portside to meet up with itself at Queensborough Junction. In 1986, the track between Fraser Wharves and BA was taken up to make room for construction of the JAT - so that's where it is.

Annacis, incidentally, is really busy, and really industrial. Many of the industries there are the same as RW, but there's a lot else, too (aside from the aformentioned Fairey). A lot of small industry, and Polymer Corporation has its BC subsidiary, Polysar BC, on the island - not massive, but decently sized. Inglis Ltd has their BC appliance plant on the island, and there's the Fraser Ore Terminal, and the new Pacific Coast Terminal was opened at the west end of the island in 1979 to replace the old one, where Westminster Quay is now... https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/Queensborough_Line

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Mention of Finn Slough also brings up a swirl of memories. As a kid, Dyke Road was a favorite hang-out spot (back then, London Farm was an empty 'haunted house'). Later, as car-driving teens, we'd hit Dyke Road at night to do things parents didn't approve of. Once chased away from the river's edge by the cops, we'd head east and deke up Finn Road towards the Slough. Then, wait for the RCMP and hit the 'repeat' button ... [/nostalgia]

The legendary Fraser River Submarine Races?  ;)

I've lost track of him since he moved up north about a decade ago, but I had a friend, about ten years older than me, from whom I heard what I imagine were stories similar to what you could tell, though he grew up in Delta. He's who first showed me Finn Slough though, during one of our Lower Mainland railway/industrial explorations. Such a nifty place...

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With mention of Valemount as a substantial city and the New Towns in the north, another question arises: Even allowing for overall population growth, does this indicate that industry (and business in general) is less concentrated in the Lower Mainland and the Island Highway strip?

Well,  the New Towns project was launched in the 1950s specifically to develop the North, with Dawson Creek (1958), Hagwilget (amalgamation of New Hazelton, South Hazelton, and those several other small settlements immediately around each other, 1960), New Aiyansh (1960; renamed Gitlatxt'aamiks in 1988), Cassiar (1961), Mackenzie (1963), and Meziadin (1963) being designated for development - which naturally included industrial and business development. It was a pretty visionary idea, I think, as it recognised not only that the Lower Mainland is restricted by geography as to how far it can expand, but that it doesn't make sense to keep all the development in the south, when there's all that land and resources up north. It was also a way of attracting immigration, offering very favourable terms to people willing to settle down "north of the Grand Trunk", as the expression has it, particularly if they were planning to start a business (so that was the incentive that lead to Pacific Truck & Trailer moving to Meziadin in 1964, aside from being much closer to their target customers in forestry and mining). Chetwynd, Kemano, and Summit Lake were developed in the 1970s as part of the "Livable North Programme", which was similar to the New Towns Project, but a bit more restricted in scale.

Valemount and Tete Jaune Cache, on the other hand, were more natural in their growth, given their location as the first significant settlements in BC after crossing the border coming west from Edmonton, and at the junction of the Vancouver-Edmonton and Prince Rupert-Edmonton railway lines. The presence of an actual border there meant that people crossing through were much more likely to stop on their way; plus there was plenty of cross-border commerce (not necessarily all of it strictly of the legitimate sort) in the days before free trade. And it's a gloriously beautiful area, so people just never went away. And the New Towns project had afterechoes, in spurring further growth in the north: as more economic connections emerged between Edmonton and northern BC, Valemount/TJC found itself in the right place, and attracted more growth in the 60s and 70s (Hayes Truck moved there in 1971), then yet more in the 80s and 90s as housing prices in the Lower Mainland started to get bad. So now it's a pretty significant city of a couple hundred thousand. Aside from domestic flights, the airport has regular direct flights to Calgary, Edmonton, Saskatoon, Winnipeg, Seattle, and Portland, and AirCal do winter flights to Reno and Orange County... TJC just opened the biggest football-only stadium in BC as the home of Yellowhead FC, archrivals of Valemount City FC in men's football, though they haven't been in the same division for a while now, and the two did join forces to create Valemount United WFC for the women's league... the very successful Yellowhead Dodgers of the BCBL (AA affiliate of the LA Dodgers) play in the biggest baseball-only stadium in the country (9,235 spectators; Nat Bailey seats 7,620, but the Lower Mainlands's baseball fans are divided between the Vancouver Pacifics, Strathcona Asahi, the Coquitlam Pipers, and the Ioco Imperials)... and there are pro teams in both the men's (Valemount Grizzlies) and women's (Valemount Valour) hockey leagues. No pro rugby though - that's for crazy coasties and Welshmen!

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I'm glad that you liked my half-an-AMC V8 concept  :D

Looking at online images of the Marina, there appears to be plenty of space under the bonnet for that slat-4 in your Okanagan. If adding brawn is your objective, I note that RW Marina TCs had twin carbs. That would be a simply way to up the ommph. But that brings up transmissions. If automatics are an option, maybe consider a kick-down 2-bbl (ie: half of a 304 44-bbl).

I did, thanks!

Re the Oke. Manual only in the Marina-derived versions, but from 1984 it was based on the Austin Montego Estate; as the notes stand now, available with manual or automatic tranmission, with either a 1.6 L BL S-series of 86 bhp, or manual-only with a 2.0 L BL O-series (in three levels: the 2.0 base model, 102 bhp; the 2.0i, 111 bhp; and the 2.0EFi, 115 bhp), which as mentioned is slated to be replaced by the AMC slant-4. These get the same Mk II treatment for 1988, though per the existing notes, only the 2.0 base model is retained; however, a 2.0DL Turbo is added, with an 80 bhp 2.0 L Rover MDI diesel fitted. The 2.0 L Mk IIs remain in production until 1995 (the 1.6s are dropped earlier). 1995 is the end of the Austin Okanagan (and utes in general), but the ute (and maybe the name) will be revived as an Eagle model in the 2010s sometime...

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I'll get back to you about 'The Wedge'  ;)

I'm now intrigued...
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

Dominion of BC - https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/British_Columbia

"Bernard, this doesn't say anything!" "Why thank you, Prime Minister."

Offline apophenia

  • Perversely enjoys removing backgrounds.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #508 on: May 31, 2025, 05:45:46 AM »
Good stuff!

"The legendary Fraser River Submarine Races?" Racey indeed! But I wasn't aware that this expression had crossed the South Arm! At times, certain substances may have also been involved ... but memory is a bit hazier there. (Q: Are there actually a lot of blondes in Lebanon?)

Northern Development: I like this. Reduced development/increased density in the Lower Mainland also give any ALR analogue a reasonable chance of success. For a place like BC to be anything near self-sufficient, it obviously needs to retain as much deltaic farmland acreage as it possibly can.

65-DE-19A engine options: I prefer the EE 6K. However, no reason that different operators mightn't have chosen other, individual options (as you did with BC Rail's Budas).

Automatic transmissions: I started off on manuals and found driving slush-boxes rather boring. A high school GF ended up with an Austin 1100 automatic. I never drove its manual equivalent but, man, was that automatic gutless! A neighbour with an 850 Mini could run rings around it ;p

Lance Stater: "The TR7 MK. III is a classic!"

Opinions on the aesthetics of 'The Wedge' has always been divisive. Its styling choices were dramatic. Whether those were desirable choices or not is where the disagreements start. Beyond style, AFAIK, the key criticisms were engine reliability and overheating.

On reliability, could we claim that a twin-carb AMC slant-4 (with its extra 0.5L over the RW TR7 engine) solved the problem? If an overworked 2L (or just poor head design) was the source of the overheating, then no more probs. (OT: Will Rover 3500-powered TR8s be built in the Dominion as well?)

I wondered about a major TR7 styling change to extend its BC production run? I was thinking of a Brooks Stevens approach where the inner stampings remain more or less unchanged. To avoid highjacking here, I'll follow your lead and stick my revised TR7 image on my own thread.

I have taken the easy route and retouched the convertible TR7. The TR7 coupe would be a much bigger challenge. I'm thinking hatchback - something akin to the MGB GT (but with a thicker B pillar so it still 'reads' as TR7).

BTW: Have you ever seen the period dealer's estate conversion - the TR7 Tracer? :)
-- https://k2rev.blogspot.com/2017/02/never-was-triumph-tr7-tracer.html
"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025

Offline Litvyak

  • Shifting between quantum realities...
  • Althistorian & profiler...& the 1st lady of whiff
    • Dominion of British Columbia
Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #509 on: June 01, 2025, 07:21:51 AM »
Good stuff!

"The legendary Fraser River Submarine Races?" Racey indeed! But I wasn't aware that this expression had crossed the South Arm! At times, certain substances may have also been involved ... but memory is a bit hazier there. (Q: Are there actually a lot of blondes in Lebanon?)

Well, I dunno if it crossed the South Arm - I learned it when I was in grade 9 or 10, living on the North Shore... though it wasn't an expression we ourselves used, more like, learning expressions "old people" used...

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65-DE-19A engine options: I prefer the EE 6K. However, no reason that different operators mightn't have chosen other, individual options (as you did with BC Rail's Budas).

Yeah, I think that's the way I'll go - Buda by default, but open to options.

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Opinions on the aesthetics of 'The Wedge' has always been divisive. Its styling choices were dramatic. Whether those were desirable choices or not is where the disagreements start. Beyond style, AFAIK, the key criticisms were engine reliability and overheating.

On reliability, could we claim that a twin-carb AMC slant-4 (with its extra 0.5L over the RW TR7 engine) solved the problem? If an overworked 2L (or just poor head design) was the source of the overheating, then no more probs. (OT: Will Rover 3500-powered TR8s be built in the Dominion as well?)

I wondered about a major TR7 styling change to extend its BC production run? I was thinking of a Brooks Stevens approach where the inner stampings remain more or less unchanged. To avoid highjacking here, I'll follow your lead and stick my revised TR7 image on my own thread.

I have taken the easy route and retouched the convertible TR7. The TR7 coupe would be a much bigger challenge. I'm thinking hatchback - something akin to the MGB GT (but with a thicker B pillar so it still 'reads' as TR7).

For my part, I like the look of the TR7!

And I like the look of your redesign, too! As I mentioned, in 1979 only there were TR7s made with the AMC slant 4, but then discontinued in favour of a version of the Alvis VC powered by that, to be the "economy" version of the VC with lower power... (VC being the 1979 update of the Rover P9 design)... but now I'm wondering, which makes the better business sense: making the Alvis name accessible at a lower price by making an economy version, or keeping Alvis exclusive, and keeping Triumph on (for a while anyways) as the sports coupe for those on a budget?

I like the look of yours, too... I guess the big factor is that BCRL was (theoretically, at least) cut loose from BL in 1977. Triumph had been a flash in the pan thing for BC production prior to the independence, so probably not something that The Mgmt would've been all that attached to. So: if BL wanted to keep on in the North American markets with the TR7 and TR8, do they do a deal with BCRL, or do they just send UK production over? If the slant-4 solved the problem, then maybe BL would be interested in using that ... since that's an AMC engine RBCL has been using, does BL get at it via RBCL, or make a direct deal with AMC? (Kenosha-built TR7s for the US? Or engineless cars shipped from the UK to be fitted with the AMC engine in the US? Or?)

I dunno...

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BTW: Have you ever seen the period dealer's estate conversion - the TR7 Tracer? :)
-- https://k2rev.blogspot.com/2017/02/never-was-triumph-tr7-tracer.html
"God save our King and heaven bless the Maple Leaf forever!"

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Offline apophenia

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #510 on: June 01, 2025, 08:32:38 AM »
... it wasn't an expression we ourselves used, more like, learning expressions "old people" used...

Hang on, hang on ... I resemble that remark!  ;D

...I guess the big factor is that BCRL was (theoretically, at least) cut loose from BL in 1977. Triumph had been a flash in the pan thing for BC production prior to the independence, so probably not something that The Mgmt would've been all that attached to. ...

Hmmm ... there's definitely a corporate disconnect there. So, maybe the TR7 update notion just doesn't work for Alt BC. Too bad ... I was going to suggest that the renewed TR7 got rebranded as the Triumph Tofino  ;)
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #511 on: June 01, 2025, 11:16:56 AM »
Hmmm ... there's definitely a corporate disconnect there. So, maybe the TR7 update notion just doesn't work for Alt BC. Too bad ... I was going to suggest that the renewed TR7 got rebranded as the Triumph Tofino  ;)

Well, not *too* big an issue: as I do like that revised design of yours, I'll incorporate it... what do you think of this:

Keeping the bit already mentioned about the RW-spec TR7  entering production in BC in 1974, using tooling sent over from the UK to start, plus complete UK-made engines shipped over for installation... local management weren't overly thrilled at having to introduce a competitor to their own Alvis VA (1970-1975, RW Rover P6BS design) and Alvis VB (launched 1975, RW Rover P9 design), but there wasn't too much they could do about it at the time. 1977, BC Leyland is set free, but they continue to produce the TR7 to fulfill existing orders/use up all the engines that had been shipped over, which lasted into early 1979. When BCRL started working with the AMC slant-4 that year, BL asked about fitting it to the TR7, so a test batch of five were made at Lumby... BL loved it, but BCRL were only willing to produce it rebadged as an Alvis. BL weren't keen on that, since unlike BC, the Triumph name did carry some meaning in the US, so wanted to take advantage of that...

Now, despite the independence of BCRL from BL, they were still working very closely, and the understanding was that there would be at least a measure of commonality between the products of the two - where products of marques held in common are concerned: meaning that whilst a Rover model would be largely identical (engine differences, at most), BCRL could do whatever it wanted under the Alvis and Wolseley marques (the latter of which BL had stopped using in 1975, but which BC kept using for their version of a Leyland Australia design), which BCRL took advantage of for the launch of the Wolseley Barcelona and Wolseley Matador in 1980 - designs licenced from AMC (Barcelona being the 4-door Matador, Matador being the 2-door). The flipside of this was, BL could sell any marques BCRL wasn't using prior to 1975 freely in Canada and the US - amongst these being Triumph.

So, someone in Lumby "unofficially" told someone in Birmingham to talk to AMC directly about wanting the slant-4 in the TR7. AMC were in difficulties (the cooperation arrangement with BCRL was one of the ways of attempting to ameliorate the situation), so when BL proposed transfer of TR7 production from Lumby to Kenosha, AMC was receptive; since the US market was BL's primary target for the TR7 anyways, it made sense to consolidate production in North America. So, a three-way deal was struck: BCRL would continue production of the legacy TR7 through 1980, whilst the tooling was transferred from Canley (where it had only just been moved from Speke in 1978) to Kenosha, and AMC would begin production at the end of 1980. Meanwhile, AMC's chief stylist Dick Teague got together with Harris Mann to update the design of the TR7, and the new design would enter production at Kenosha in 1981, with the AMC slant-4 as the TR7, and with a (UK-built) Rover V8 as the TR8. In 1984, when (the passenger car division of) AMC was bought by BCRL, BL was in a poor enough state that they agreed without qualms to Lumby's intention to discontinue production of both the TR7 and TR8, and the last "Wedge" rolled off the line at Kenosha on 11 January 1985.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #512 on: June 02, 2025, 07:24:45 AM »
Keeping the bit already mentioned about the RW-spec TR7  entering production in BC in 1974, using tooling sent over from the UK to start, plus complete UK-made engines shipped over for installation... local management weren't overly thrilled at having to introduce a competitor to their own Alvis VA (1970-1975, RW Rover P6BS design) and Alvis VB (launched 1975, RW Rover P9 design), but there wasn't too much they could do about it at the time. 1977, BC Leyland is set free, but they continue to produce the TR7 to fulfill existing orders/use up all the engines that had been shipped over, which lasted into early 1979. When BCRL started working with the AMC slant-4 that year, BL asked about fitting it to the TR7, so a test batch of five were made at Lumby... BL loved it, but BCRL were only willing to produce it rebadged as an Alvis. BL weren't keen on that, since unlike BC, the Triumph name did carry some meaning in the US, so wanted to take advantage of that...

Now, despite the independence of BCRL from BL, they were still working very closely, and the understanding was that there would be at least a measure of commonality between the products of the two - where products of marques held in common are concerned: meaning that whilst a Rover model would be largely identical (engine differences, at most), BCRL could do whatever it wanted under the Alvis and Wolseley marques (the latter of which BL had stopped using in 1975, but which BC kept using for their version of a Leyland Australia design), which BCRL took advantage of for the launch of the Wolseley Barcelona and Wolseley Matador in 1980 - designs licenced from AMC (Barcelona being the 4-door Matador, Matador being the 2-door). The flipside of this was, BL could sell any marques BCRL wasn't using prior to 1975 freely in Canada and the US - amongst these being Triumph.

So, someone in Lumby "unofficially" told someone in Birmingham to talk to AMC directly about wanting the slant-4 in the TR7. AMC were in difficulties (the cooperation arrangement with BCRL was one of the ways of attempting to ameliorate the situation), so when BL proposed transfer of TR7 production from Lumby to Kenosha, AMC was receptive; since the US market was BL's primary target for the TR7 anyways, it made sense to consolidate production in North America. So, a three-way deal was struck: BCRL would continue production of the legacy TR7 through 1980, whilst the tooling was transferred from Canley (where it had only just been moved from Speke in 1978) to Kenosha, and AMC would begin production at the end of 1980. Meanwhile, AMC's chief stylist Dick Teague got together with Harris Mann to update the design of the TR7, and the new design would enter production at Kenosha in 1981, with the AMC slant-4 as the TR7, and with a (UK-built) Rover V8 as the TR8. In 1984, when (the passenger car division of) AMC was bought by BCRL, BL was in a poor enough state that they agreed without qualms to Lumby's intention to discontinue production of both the TR7 and TR8, and the last "Wedge" rolled off the line at Kenosha on 11 January 1985.

Excellent backstory with plenty of twists and turns. I can see why management might resist an 'outsider' being pushed into their line-up. But those mid-engined Alvis VA and VB coupés would really be in a class of their own. And, of course, neither would be offered as a convertible. [1] So, I'm seeing the Alvis VA and VB coupés as kind of entry-level supercars while the TR7 convertible remains the next-gen TR6 or MGB analogue.

BTW, I like that you've brought in Dick Teague as well as a nod to Harris Mann. OT but I'm curious as to your take on Mann's 1969 Austin Zanda concept car for Pressed Steel. Personally, I love it ... at least back to its B pillars (aft of that it is more than a little quirky). Over on my thread, I'll be mounting revisions of both the Rover P6BS and the Zanda.

___________________________________


[1] Although I see that a T-bar roof was originally proposed for the Rover P6BS (coincidentally, there was a similar TR7 Targa concept).

"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025

Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #513 on: June 02, 2025, 09:20:41 AM »
Excellent backstory with plenty of twists and turns. I can see why management might resist an 'outsider' being pushed into their line-up. But those mid-engined Alvis VA and VB coupés would really be in a class of their own. And, of course, neither would be offered as a convertible. [1] So, I'm seeing the Alvis VA and VB coupés as kind of entry-level supercars while the TR7 convertible remains the next-gen TR6 or MGB analogue.

I realised the class difference between the TR7 and the VA, so I changed the writing a bit when I did the Triumph page on the wiki, with BCRL agreeing to produce the TR7 on the assumption that it wouldn't be a direct competitor to Alvis. To explain the later hostility to it (i.e. informing BL that they'll be discontinuing it forthwith, after the AMC takeover), I added a bit that the TR7 *did* cut into sales of the VA more than expected... so that perception (if not fact), together with not wanting to add another design group, meant the TR7/8's fate was sealed. Hope you don't mind I added your image to the wiki page as an image of the last TR7 to roll off the line in Kenosha (with credit to you in the filename). https://dominionofbc.miraheze.org/wiki/Triumph

Zanda comments on your thread.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #514 on: June 03, 2025, 10:03:16 AM »
Very chuffed that the swoopless TR7 has become a part of the Alt BC universe!  :D

Good detail in the TR7 backstory on management responding not to facts but to perception. That sounds very realistic (add in responding to fads and whim and you'd have the whole biz-admin package!).

BTW, I've put up another image on my thread inspired by these Alt BC discussion.
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #515 on: June 08, 2025, 03:47:31 PM »
BC Leyland replaced the very successful Rover P6 in 1977, with the P8, a project that was abandoned by British Leyland.



It was launched in 4-door saloon, 5-door wagon, and 2-door utility body styles of the Rover 3500, initially with the 3.5 L Rover V8 engine as the only option. Above are seen a saloon in Scarab Blue, and a ute in Avocado, both colours introduced to the Rover palette in prior years. The 3500 was sold only in BC and the West Indies, in RHD only, in 1977 and 1978; an LHD version was introduced for Canada in 1979


In 1979, two new engine variants were offered: the AMC slant-4 was made available in all markets both LHD and RHD as the Rover 2500, whilst the AMC 360 cu. in. V8 was introduced in the US-only Rover 5900; a 1979 Rover 5900 wagon in Monza Red is illustrated here - note the AMC-style "V8" emblem behind the front turn signal.

Sales of the 5900 were sluggish, and it was discontinued in 1982; the 2500 and 3500 sold quite well, and they were produced until the start of the 1986 model year, when the all-new 800 series was launched, replacing both the P8 and its short-lived contemporary, the SD1, which was produced in BC only from 1982 to 1986.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #516 on: June 09, 2025, 08:15:21 AM »
Very nice ... an entire family  :smiley:

So, if understood correctly, the Rover 2500 sold well, it was only the AMC 360 V8 Rover 5900 for the US market that suffered low sales?
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #517 on: June 09, 2025, 08:23:35 AM »
Very nice ... an entire family  :smiley:

So, if understood correctly, the Rover 2500 sold well, it was only the AMC 360 V8 Rover 5900 for the US market that suffered low sales?

Yeah, exactly.
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #518 on: June 10, 2025, 06:44:41 AM »
Very nice ... an entire family  :smiley:

So, if understood correctly, the Rover 2500 sold well, it was only the AMC 360 V8 Rover 5900 for the US market that suffered low sales?

Yeah, exactly.

That makes sense. Maybe the 5900 was a bit nose-heavy? The whole package would probably handle better with the aluminum-block 3.5 L V8.

Great looking lines on the Rover 2500, though ... so, obviously aesthetics wasn't the 5900's problem  :smiley:
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #519 on: June 10, 2025, 10:07:35 AM »
That makes sense. Maybe the 5900 was a bit nose-heavy? The whole package would probably handle better with the aluminum-block 3.5 L V8.

Great looking lines on the Rover 2500, though ... so, obviously aesthetics wasn't the 5900's problem  :smiley:

Nose heavy, along with the AMC's big V8 being rather thirsty, and AMC's own sales of cars with their own were slowing by 1979 too - such that for 1980 they introduced the Rover V8 as an option on the Concord, Spirit, and Matador (both 2 and 4 door versions - the 2-door Matador is a favourite in terms of design), and from 1981, in the Eagle, so BCRL's motivation for doing this is something of a mystery.

Drawing this was pretty fun and painless, I found a good almost perfectly side-on view of (I think) a clay model of the P8, and worked off that. I have no idea how you do your photo manipulations, and I'm scared to even try...
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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #520 on: June 12, 2025, 10:41:06 AM »
Drawing this was pretty fun and painless, I found a good almost perfectly side-on view of (I think) a clay model of the P8, and worked off that...

Ya gotta love those finds! It is in the nature of lens that you'll rarely find a perfect side view. But, when you're close, it is a good day  :smiley:

... I have no idea how you do your photo manipulations, and I'm scared to even try...

Nothing intimidating there. First step: Get access to Photoshop. Second step; Refuse to learn how to use Photoshop "properly".  ;)

For whatever reason, I actually enjoy cutting out shapes from their backgrounds. The rest is usually just subtraction or addition (generally from other images collected online).
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #521 on: June 12, 2025, 09:14:57 PM »
Nothing intimidating there. First step: Get access to Photoshop. Second step; Refuse to learn how to use Photoshop "properly".  ;)

I'm that way with Gimp, never actually learnt what I'm doing... well that's not entirely true. But I've only learnt about 5% of it. I need to look up how to simulate the appearance of metallic and pearlescent colours...

Quote
For whatever reason, I actually enjoy cutting out shapes from their backgrounds. The rest is usually just subtraction or addition (generally from other images collected online).

I'd love to make a photo of left-hand traffic on the Lion's Gate, or in front of the Hotel Vancouver, or Parliament in Victoria... maybe one day I'll give it a try.
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« Reply #522 on: June 13, 2025, 10:31:08 AM »
I'd love to make a photo of left-hand traffic on the Lion's Gate ...

Okay, I've taken that as an internal challenge  ;D

My starting point is kind of weird. The online version of "Lion's Gate Bridge 1940" says "Giclée on Canvas". So an inkjet print of a colourised photograph ... but there's a Seversky SEV-3 overhead  ??? -- https://caulfeildgallery.com/product/lions-gate-bridge-1940/

First attachment will be this 1940 bridge with the traffic stripped away. Second is with left-hand drive traffic added back in. Not knowing much about BC Electric liveries of the time, I chickened out on the Leyland Cub (to the right) and made it a tour bus. (The angle is pretty wonky on that Cub too ... but you get the idea.)

... or in front of the Hotel Vancouver, or Parliament in Victoria... maybe one day I'll give it a try.

Okay, now over to you and GIMP for those ones  :smiley:
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: Litvyak's profiles
« Reply #523 on: June 14, 2025, 05:18:37 AM »
Okay, I've taken that as an internal challenge  ;D

My starting point is kind of weird. The online version of "Lion's Gate Bridge 1940" says "Giclée on Canvas". So an inkjet print of a colourised photograph ... but there's a Seversky SEV-3 overhead  ??? -- https://caulfeildgallery.com/product/lions-gate-bridge-1940/

First attachment will be this 1940 bridge with the traffic stripped away. Second is with left-hand drive traffic added back in. Not knowing much about BC Electric liveries of the time, I chickened out on the Leyland Cub (to the right) and made it a tour bus. (The angle is pretty wonky on that Cub too ... but you get the idea.)

Oh this is super :D

Re BCER, 1940 is a bit beyond what I know confidently as far as the motor busses go, but I think they were the same cream colour as they had after the war until BC Hydro came along.

I don't know if BCER had any routes from Downtown to North Van at the time yet, though; AFAIK only WVMT had their blue busses running across the bridge to Vancouver from Ambleside. If there was a North Van service, I'd probably put my money on Pacific Stage Lines having run it, but I don't know. I know plenty about WVMT history, and post-war transit history, but not much from before/during the war.
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« Reply #524 on: June 15, 2025, 04:10:47 AM »
Re BCER, 1940 is a bit beyond what I know confidently as far as the motor busses go, but I think they were the same cream colour as they had after the war until BC Hydro came along.

Yes. That was my understanding too.

I don't know if BCER had any routes from Downtown to North Van at the time yet, though; AFAIK only WVMT had their blue busses running across the bridge to Vancouver from Ambleside. If there was a North Van service, I'd probably put my money on Pacific Stage Lines having run it, but I don't know. I know plenty about WVMT history, and post-war transit history, but not much from before/during the war.

You're right, BCER-owned Pacific Stage Lines did run a prewar and wartime service from the North Shore (West Van and North Van) through the causeway to a terminal at Georgia and Cambie downtown. In the original link, the PSL bus (in Ivor Neil's swoopy green-and-cream livery) is stopped to the right on that access lane (no idea of why ... seems an odd place to stop and then have to squeeze back into traffic again).

I'm not sure where the PSL bus stopped in West Van but riders could then transfer to West Vancouver Bus Company vehicles to get up to Horseshoe Bay. That service started c.1930 which suggests that the later PSL run from downtown probably ended up near the old ferry terminal at the foot of 14th Street in Ambleside.

Again in the original link, there's that small, cream-coloured bus heading south. So who did that belong to? AFAIK, BC Electric Railway Co never owned the 'Blue Bus' line. Might our mystery bus be a 'loaner' from BCER's Vancouver service operating on the PSL route? Or maybe that cream-coloured vehicle was just a tour bus? Who knows?

BTW: I forgot to mention that, in my retouch, I replaced that incongruous Seversky with Fleet 2 CF-AOD.
"It's going to be very hard to do business like this." = US Diplomacy † 28 Feb 2025