Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72474 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2014, 04:57:43 PM »
I'd go with double rails on the over wing position.   Perhaps with a pair of drop tanks, like a Phantom or a Tornado F3.

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2014, 05:39:46 PM »
And for another idea, what about an Indian one painted up in a similar scheme to this:




OH HELL YES!!!!!!  :P :P :P
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2014, 06:25:30 PM »
Surprised India never bought the Lightning as they seemed to be pretty anglophile in their purchasing habits around that period.  Singapore would have been another logical operator considering how long the RAF operated the type there and its point defence nature.  Like I said I would like to have seen it in RAAF service as an alternative to the Bloodhound and to re-equip the RAAF flying reserve (had it not been disbanded in the 50s).  You could even have seen ex-RAAF machines going to Indonesia and Malaysia in the 70s and new builds to NZ in the 60s (if not CAC Furies in the 60s  ;))

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2014, 08:48:23 PM »
speaking of which, what about a more modern ground attack one with LGBs?

Should be possible to put a 500lb or 1000lb LGB on each underwing pylon. Should also be possible to put a TIALD pod on one of the Red Top pylons. The difficulty with all such high-tech schemes would be the aircraft avionics. Lightnings as they came didn't have a databus or even a CRT display in the cockpit. Of course you can put all those things in (pretty silly not to if you're putting a modern radar in it) but that's loads more money.

Here's a thought: what about JDAMs? They only need the target GPS coordinates and for a fixed target, and those can be pre-programmed on the ground before take-off. Obviously it's better if they can be updated in flight, but it's not essential. The Lightning them acts as a "dumb", but very high performance, bomber, using it's speed to dash to the JDAM release point. One option might be to release them at very high speed and altitude so that they glide a long way, another other might be to go for a low and fast approach and then toss them forwards in a high-speed climb.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2014, 09:05:06 PM »
With a RB199 re-engining or as new build option you could possibly fit the Jaguars nav attack system and other avionics in the front section of the belly tank without loss of range, or even possibly with an increase in range.  Update with Sea Vixen and TIALD and you have a very effective 91 Gulf War bomber.

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2014, 09:18:28 PM »
The nice thing about Sea Vixen is that, in order to fit it into the Sea Harrier, it was deliberately made distributable using a databus, so that the whole weight of the thing didn't have to go in the nose. Many of the radar black boxes were actually in the rear fuselage. That feature might ease integration onto the Lightning, since the latter's radar has to live in a very tight pod in the centre of the intake. Having said that, Lightnings didn't have much space to spare of any sort anywhere, but if you were getting rid of Red Top, the missile support pack would become available without losing the pylons, since any modern weapons you put on them would be much less "needy".

Actually, kind of solved my own problem there: put modern electronic systems in the missile pack area, stick a TIALD on one side and a self-defence AIM-9L on the other, OR, in a slightly earlier timeframe, it should be perfectly possible to "pod" the Jaguar's LRMTS and put that on one of the fuselage pylons for the CAS role.

Here's another possibility: missile pack avionics upgrade with pylons for two Mavericks... >:D They're about 30% heavier than a Red Top, but it should still be doable, and they can definately stand being carried on a side rail because there's a triple launcher or them that carries two just like that. You'd need a TV screen in the cockpit, but if you're updating the radar to a modern one with a CRT display anyway.... 

Just remembered: Switzerland integrated Maverick on the Hunter, so if that's possible, it should definately be on for the Lightning.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:44:20 PM by Weaver »
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2014, 10:42:00 PM »
Mmm... liking this line if thought, Maverick on the fuselage rails, winders over wing or on wing pylons and we are cruising

Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: May 11, 2014, 01:03:34 AM »
Actually, just realised something: the RAF wanted to carry Genie on the fuselage pylons, and that weighed 822lb, whereas the heaviest Maverick weighs in at 670lb, and is smaller in every dimension, so it's definately a goer.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: May 11, 2014, 01:33:00 AM »
Reading some of Chris Gibson's books about Lightnings and Genies, there wasn't a possibility to mount them on the existing pylons because they were too heavy and really upset the cg.  It was then proposed to mount the Genies further back off the belly tank.

Just recently someone posted some pics of a mock-up installation of some type of missile in that position, I thought it was in this thread but it doen't look like it now I've just gone all through it.  Now where did I see that picture ---  ???
« Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:36:52 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: May 11, 2014, 04:14:22 AM »
The nice thing about Sea Vixen is that, in order to fit it into the Sea Harrier,


Errr…do you mean Blue Vixen?  Fitting something like this:



into a Sea Harrier will be a lot easier than one of these…



 ;)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: May 11, 2014, 04:20:29 AM »
Singapore would have been another logical operator considering how long the RAF operated the type there and its point defence nature. 


Actually, a fast point defence interceptor such as the Lightning makes perfect sense for a small island/city state like Singapore.  A EE Lightning in this sort of scheme:



Would look great!  Might look a little like this:



Another operator might have been Malaysia.
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: May 11, 2014, 04:37:57 AM »
BTW, Richard has done several EE Lightning profiles here
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: May 11, 2014, 04:45:10 AM »
I also like the idea of a supersonic air race league using aircraft such as the Lightning:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: May 11, 2014, 04:47:33 AM »
Another cool idea:

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2014, 04:51:41 AM »
And some more:



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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: May 11, 2014, 05:26:33 AM »
Reading some of Chris Gibson's books about Lightnings and Genies, there wasn't a possibility to mount them on the existing pylons because they were too heavy and really upset the cg.  It was then proposed to mount the Genies further back off the belly tank.

Just recently someone posted some pics of a mock-up installation of some type of missile in that position, I thought it was in this thread but it doen't look like it now I've just gone all through it.  Now where did I see that picture ---  ???

That's not what it says in Battle Flight. It says the RAF studied Genie on the fuselage pylon and while there were some issues, it was the preferred solution, in fact the the ideal solution was to mount the missile further forward and higher up (doesn't say why). There's also a diagram showing all the studied Genie locations and the fuselage one is the favoured one again.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: May 11, 2014, 11:29:52 PM »
You're right Harold, went and had a re-read.  But I could have sworn that was what I had read somewhere so spent some time looking around.

Well -- erm! I had the wrong missile  :-[  , it was a Bullpup installation I was really thinking of which is a missile twice as heavy.  (on the 'What-If forum of all places to find it   :-X )
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:41:30 PM by kitnut617 »

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2014, 09:30:04 AM »
Interesting and interestinger.....

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: May 12, 2014, 11:08:06 AM »
You're right Harold, went and had a re-read.  But I could have sworn that was what I had read somewhere so spent some time looking around.

Well -- erm! I had the wrong missile  :-[  , it was a Bullpup installation I was really thinking off which is a missile twice as heavy.  (on the 'What-If forum of all places to find it   :-X )

I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.

You'll also note your picture is of the early prototype overwing drop tanks with fins.  The fins were found to be unnecessary, with tank separation working without them, so their added drag was found unnecessary.

I note that aircraft doesn't have any air-to-air missiles.  I suspect the black boxes for the Bullpup guidance replaced them.  There simply wasn't much room in the Lightning airframe for extra systems without sacrificing something.


Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: May 12, 2014, 05:54:36 PM »
On going miniaturisation of electronics would help for the 1970s hypothetical versions.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: May 12, 2014, 08:45:11 PM »
I have a picture in a recent book on the Lightning which shows a Genie shape in that position.

I was sure I'd seen a pic too Brian ---

You'll also note your picture is of the early prototype overwing drop tanks with fins.  The fins were found to be unnecessary, with tank separation working without them, so their added drag was found unnecessary.

Well, I do know that Battle Flight has a number of profile drawings of the over-wing tank with these fins on (having just re-read the chapter), mostly they're on a two-seater though.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: May 12, 2014, 11:11:05 PM »
I think I need that book

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2014, 12:13:13 PM »
Re-winging the Lightning with F-4 wings:

Lighting and Phantom parts have the same scale. Only the F-4-stabs-turned-canards are smaller than their real-life counterparts.




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Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2014, 01:48:09 PM »
they look great especially the 1st 1, the drooping wingtips really suit it

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: October 02, 2014, 05:27:00 AM »
I like the canard version.
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