Author Topic: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72471 times)

Offline Leading Observer

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2013, 01:47:50 AM »
Simple paint job. Re-locate to the Robert Harris "Fatherland" universe and the Lightning is serving with the Luftwaffe as a QRF on the border with the USSR. Even a chance to do one in a "special" scheme to celebrate Hitlers 70th birthday
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2013, 10:01:41 AM »
That single engine bird is outstanding. :)
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2013, 10:02:06 AM »
Simple paint job. Re-locate to the Robert Harris "Fatherland" universe and the Lightning is serving with the Luftwaffe as a QRF on the border with the USSR. Even a chance to do one in a "special" scheme to celebrate Hitlers 70th birthday

Maybe as a Messerschmitt with Black Tulip markings?
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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2013, 04:49:35 AM »
Random idea:  Red Arrow Lightning
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 08:42:56 AM »
I always thought the Lightning would look good as a delta wing design.

Giving it a cranked arrow style wing would give it more internal fuel volume, perhaps enough to at least reduce the under fuselage bulge to no more than F.3 proportions.


As a variation on this suggestion, what about a testbed with a wing similar to the Concorde.  Maybe similar in concept to the MiG-21 testbed for the Tu-144:


While researching something related to the Lightning, I came across this suggestion. So here's my take on it:



The canards came as a bit of an afterthought. I saw the opening of the 30mm guns on the Lightning F.1 and thought a demonstrator wouldn't have use for them. That's when I remembered the Tu-144 Charger's canards.
When I modified the drawing, I calculated that the Concorde's wings are 31.64m long at the root. The wings on the demonstrator would scale out to a little over 10m long. So about 1/3 of the real Concorde wings. Modelling-wise, I think the wings of a 1/200 Revell snap-fit Concorde would work well on a 1/72 Lightning of choice. For 1/48, you could probably use the wings of a 1/144 Concorde.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 03:17:01 PM »
 :)
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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2013, 12:17:43 PM »
It's usually the other way round, but in this case , Lightning follows Thunderbolt (Viggen):



I had a side profile with the landing gear deployed and shots from head-on and the bottom with four twin-launchers for Firestreak AAMs (one launcher right in front of the landing gear and one nearer to the wing tip), but the darn computer ate it!  :icon_twisted:
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Moritz

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2013, 12:19:56 PM »
Wicked!!! :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2013, 12:45:19 PM »
Beautiful!!  And definitely with more room for stores.  One thought, how about making the canard more of a delta from just in front of the inboard elevator/fixed section joint?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »
More like this, then?

Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2013, 04:36:43 PM »
They look great, although they'd be a bit tricky to build, since you've got a wing spar passing through the lower engine... ;)

How about this:

1. F.6 airframe with guns in the belly tank

2. Delta wing as shown, but in the original mid-mounted postion. Use the kinked and cambered leading edge and give it LERX at the roots

3. No canards, but have the flick-out "moustache" foreplanes from the Concorde demo. Dassault played with these on a Mirage ("Milan"?) so there's obviously potential there.


BAC "investigated" a delta wing on the Lightning, but they left the original tailplanes in place and then dismissed the configuration because of unfavourable wing downwash interactions over them. Well doh.... how about leaving them off altogether? I might be reading too much into it, but this has always felt to me like a pre-determined attempt to dismiss a delta rather then investigate it, probably in defence of their own wing design.... ::)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2013, 04:41:49 PM by Weaver »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2013, 05:08:16 PM »
They were looking at not a pure delta but a "tailed delta" configuration.  It worked with the MiG21 and other fighters even up to today's Super-Hornet.  So I don't think they were trying to dismiss a delta plan form but found it didn't work with the tailplanes at the low position.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2014, 12:30:04 AM »
Just thinking, RAAF orders EE Lightning instead of Bloodhound missile following a cost benefit analysis.

An evolved Australian Lightning is developed during the early 60s to replace the original Lightnings and remaining Sabres in the late 60s.  Larger fuselage including Speys in place of Avon, nose and belly guns, more fuel in a larger / longer belly tank, new radar, Sparrow and Sidewinder capability with a Y profile launch rail set up similar to that on the F-8 Crusader.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2014, 11:54:03 AM »
Actually what engine would fit the Lightning without too many mods required that would provide more power and / or lower fuel burn, would the J-79 or the RM-6C development of the Avon.  How would you get more fuel into the aircraft without adversely affecting performance?  A larger dorsal spine, fuselage stretch, conformal tanks?  Could a nose similar in profile to the SR.177 permit the fitment of a larger radar without impacting performance?

Offline elmayerle

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2014, 02:32:52 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2014, 04:03:29 PM »
I was actually reading up on the Bloodhound when it struck me that the Lightning was a contemporary and probably much better value for money than the guided missile. 

The next step was assuming the conservative RAAF pushed for a manned, point defence, interceptor rather than a guided missile, to defend Australia's major cities and to counter Indonesia's TU 16 Badgers.  The RAAF selected the then in production F2 Lightning going on to re-equip / form a number of active service and reserve squadrons for local air defence and treaty obligations, i.e. Butterworth, Singapore, Malta. Initial aircraft would have been built in the UK but follow on airframes built locally.  Locally produced aircraft were modified / improved with increasing use of US equipment for use on the periphery of the conflict in Vietnam, i.e. air defence or Ubon in Thailand etc.

Considering it has been years since I actually finished a kit I am looking at a fairly easy Wiff using either an incomplete 1/100 Tamiya F6 or a new kit ( the new Airfix options look good).  New kit in 1/72 may be easier and I can pilfer exhausts from a Phantom, Sparrows and Sidewinders from the spares box.  I used to have the Matchbox Lightning and am not sure if it is incomplete in a box somewhere or whether it was binned, could be a good source for the nose guns.  Considering a larger dorsal spine or even a dorsal hump for extra fuel.  A new nose would be harder but maybe graft a suitable on, blending it in to the top line infront of the windscreen and fit either a larger chin inlet or a second one over the remaining bottom half of the original inlet.

Like the sound of the F404 re engine, could be the simplest way forward, maybe based on an updated F2A with AIM-9L and AIM-7F serving into the early 90's.  Would a Blue Fox be a suitable replacement for Airpass, would Blue Vixen have fitted?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 16, 2014, 07:02:21 PM »
Well, the RM-6C had better afterburner performance than the Avon 300 in the Lightning did.  The J79 would be a tight fit, but might work.  If they soldiered on with Avon's until the late 1970's, F404's would be a fascinating option.  I've always wanted to do a Lightning FG.2B with the full set of 4x30mm nose cannon, plus the belly cannons and the export wing with hardpoints (with double MATRA pods, or MATRA combined rocket pods and fuel tanks, on each).


Just picked up the Feb edition of Scale Aviation Modeller International and it has a write up on the new Airfix F2A Lightning 1/72.  It looks good and the various profiles they have reminded me of your FG.2B.  In fact the article made reference to photos of F.2A on http://sg-etuo.de/Squadrons/No19SquadronF2A that show aircraft with the four cannon fit and evidence of all having been fired.

Interesting that the belly guns were in place of the Fire Streaks / Red Tops.  It also had profiles for the Mk53 Saudi and Kuwaiti versions, the double rocket launchers on the outer pylon, as well as the over wing set up look interesting.

Maybe I need an Airfix F.2B or two...

Offline mrvr6

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 16, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »









Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 16, 2014, 10:19:27 PM »
That is cool, well they are all cool but that Atlantian Lightning is extra cool.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: April 17, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
Looking at this shot it appears that the radome of the Lightning is larger than that of the Mirage F1
http://www.sg-etuo.de/bilder/XN778H_19_0676_EWsb.jpg
 This would mean it is also as large or larger than that of the Gripen, Sea Harrier FRS1, F/A2, Mirage 3, and possibly Mirage 2000.  Interesting, this appears to free up a number of upgrade / update pathways for the type.

Looking at the Mk53 with last production examples delivered in 1969 the Lightning was in production for much longer than I realised. 

Now assuming an Australian Lightning buy of say 30 to 40 F2 in 1962/3 following the loan of a squadrons worth of 18 F1 in 1961 (as an emergency counter to Indonesia's Badgers) local production could have started in 1967/8 of an improved F6A incorporating the nose cannon of the F2A, the wing (with the ordinance options) of the Mk53 and integration of US Sparrow and Sidewinder missiles is manufactured into the early 70s. Followed into production by a combat capable trainer version the T7 and then an updated fighter version the F8 with updated avionics and weapons as well as a pair of GE F404 turbofans in place of the Avons to replace the F2s.  There is a trainer version the T9 and the F6A fleet is rebuilt to a similar standard as the F8 being called the F10. 

The Lightning is an additional capability for the RAAF equipping interceptor squadrons initially defending Darwin and Port Moresby against feared Indonesian aggression but then also Derby and Townsville as well as Singapore and Malaysia.  Due to restrictions (real and perceived) on the use of the new Mirage IIIEO fleet (RR Avon and Ferranti Airpass) it is decided to deploy Lightnings to Thailand and South Vietnam instead and also to expand their role from interceptor only to include the air superiority, tactical strike, close air support and tactical reconnaissance roles for which the Mirage had been procured (as a CAC Sabre and FJ-4B Fury replacement).  The surprising performance of the Lightning in Vietnam, including a number of RAAF pilots becoming aces for no loss to enemy action, even in CAS missions led to the decision to develop and export the improved models into the 1980s. 

The Lightning continues to serve the RAAF into the late 90s initially alongside the Mirage III but then the Mirage F1 when it is planned to be replaced with an air superiority orientated multi-role type with the F-22, F-23 and Eurofighter Typhoon all being contenders.  Further life extensions are planned to carry the fleet through until the arrival of its selected replacement, the fleet has already been upgraded with Blue Vixen radars, AMRAAM and ASRAAM as well as a raft of up to date air to ground ordinance including Popeye AGMs and ALARM .  The Rafale has already been selected as the replacement for the Mirage F-1 with IOC planned for 1998.

 ;D Sorry couldn't help myself

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All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2014, 01:28:51 AM »
Anyone built a Trumpeter 1/72 Lightning? I've heard the Airfix kits are better / more accurate but are the Trumpeter ones ok?

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2014, 07:19:11 AM »
Define "ok"!  ;) It will look like a Lightning once built and no one will mistake it for something other than a Lightning, that's for sure.
Looking at it a bit closer, there are some problems. The biggest one: they messed up the rear fuselage (over-exaggerated the pinch between the engines), resulting in a misshapen tail end with ridiculously small nozzles.
Some smaller, not as immediately obvious bugs: the wings are a bit too far forward and miss some subtleties in the kinks of the leading edge, the belly tank is a bit on the portly side. For some more bugs and how to fix them, see this marvellous in-progress thread on Britmodeller: LINK!

My remaining Trumpeter Lightning will get a new tail end by "Odds and Ordnance" and the wings from a 1/200 snap-fit Concorde. For all other Lightnings builds, I'll probably use the Airfix kit.
Cheers,
Moritz

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Offline Weaver

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2014, 08:07:32 AM »
They looked at integrating Sparrow on Lightnings, but it proved impossible with 1960s technology to add the CW illumination fuction to the AI.23 radar. It's not so much the diameter of the dish, more the fact that the whole radar is very tightly packed into the intake bullet and there's just not room for extra black boxes or slightly bigger versions of existing ones. The only way to do it would be to use a completely new radar but that's an order of magnitude more expensive.

They also wind-tunnel tested quad Sidewinders on fuselage Y-pylons and found that it was destabilising, needing an even bigger fin extension than that required by Red Top. What they didn't test, as far as I know, was two Sidewinders on the fuselage stations, plus two more on either the overwing pylons or the export underwing ones. I could see that working very nicely, and I have in mind to do a Luftwaffe F.6 with 4 x Sidewinders in this layout some day.

Regarding engines, the J-79 should fit at a very tight squeeze, but the Spey would need so much fuselage re-building that you might as well start from scratch with a new airframe design. The RM-6C from the Draken only managed it's superior afterburner performance because the diameter of the Lightnings' cans is limited by the shape of the fuselage, so you couldn't really use it as a re-fit option. Of course, in whiff world, maybe Rolls-Royce's advanced Rb-106 didn't get cancelled. This was, roughly speaking, an Avon-sized engine with J-79ish technology, so it would be a natural and very powerful upgrade.

There are some interesting advanced Lightning drawings in Chris Gibson's Battle Flight, which have an extended belly pack whose front end overlaps the missle support pack between the fuselage pylons. They have guns in the front, more fuel and a modular weapon pack in the middle, further back than the real-life missile pylons. This pack could have two Red Top pylons, four Sidewinder pylons, three semi-recessed Mk.82 bombs, flip-out 2" RP packs, a semi-recessed Genie, a recce pack or more fuel. IIRC, all of the profiles show it fitted to a two-seat T.55 which was the preferred option for most advanced Lightnings, but I see no reason in principle why the belly pack shouldn't go on the single-seater airframe.

Bear in mind when sending Lightnings to 'Nam that the thing was an absolute pig to work on, since it was essentially a barely-productionised experimental aircraft. Little things like not being able to easily take the wings off to move a damaged aircraft are a right pain in peacetime but can be killer factors when trying to keep a force in operation in an actual war. I can quite believe it getting a good air-to-air score, but I can also see serviceability levels dropping through the floor as running costs go through the roof.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 08:11:55 AM by Weaver »
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: EE/BAC Lightning Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2014, 09:20:09 AM »
Thanks guys that's some things to think on, I do like the sound of extended belly pack and the options it brings.  I think one of the local shops has a Trumpeter kit but no Airfix ones in sight, hence my question.  So adequately supported Ubon in Thailand could have been a goer but Vietnam would have been more problematic but could have been done if enough aircraft had been forward deployed.  Mirage would have been a better a better option but for the fear of embargoes.

Supportability on deployment would have been one of the drivers for an improved version, along with range and weapons load.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 10:27:33 AM by Volkodav »