Author Topic: M26 and M46 Pershing, M47, M48, M60 Patton, and M103 Family of Vehicles  (Read 87241 times)

Offline dy031101

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Yes, I know the US postwar 90mm guns were different than the WWII models, I wasn't trying to imply any different.

I'm not saying you are, just that I'm trying to be as specific as possible so that amateurish guesswork on my part  can be kept to a minimum when I go messing around with ideas for mental notes later on.  ;D

As for the postwar French guns, I don't know enough to say for certain, but I'd imagine it was a combination of higher velocity and better ammunition that allowed it to continue to remain effective decades later. I think they used APFSDS, something that the US 90mm guns didn't benefit from in the 40s and 50s.

Were you thinking of the DCA 45 gun?  It does appear to be another one of those guns in the same category as the German 88mm L/71, but I don't think it served beyond the ARL-44.

The F4 gun, built in the '80s and used by the ERC-90 F4 tank destroyer, is probably a different beast (correct me if I'm wrong).  The F4 gun does use APFSDS, however, as a mean of defeating the contemporary version of T-72- if adopting that APFSDS for the 90mm guns of the pre-Patton-48 tanks is possible, I'd gladly settle with swapping turret with Jackson or Patton-47 for my current brainstorming (since Pershing/Patton-46 didn't seem to be that widely-exported; or get either a Sagaie or upgunned Walker Bulldog turret for the F4 gun solution, but that's topic for another thread)......
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:28:11 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Logan Hartke

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I was thinking of the F4 moreso. Again, that ammunition makes a big difference.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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I see.  Much thanks.  :)
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Logan Hartke

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No problem. Remember, though, my opinions are that of a complete amateur and are just based on what I read. I have no special insight into any of this.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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If World of Tanks got it right (if because it took a lot of artistic licence on the subject of Schmaltürm)...... the T42 turret is actually lighter than Chi-Ri's autoloading 75mm gun turet......

Maybe I don't have to involve turret from the M41 light tank after all...... just take the T42 turret, add a APFSDS-capable muzzle brake and voila!
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Logan Hartke

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As a former WoT player with a few thousand games under my belt, I'd take all of their statistics with an Imperial ton of salt. They tweak them to fit the game. It's a game first and a simulator last. Trust no statistics you read on there.

Cheers,

Logan

Offline dy031101

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It's a game first and a simulator last. Trust no statistics you read on there.

Yeah.

==============================================================

From what I've read during these couple of days, it would seem that US 90mm guns, while being of different designs, actually share ammunitions...... perhaps M47 and M36 didn't perform well against T-54/55 in Yugoslav Civil War because YPA did not acquire M48 and did not see much point of new ammunitions for their M36 and M47?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2014, 12:16:54 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
88mm L/56 FlaK36/KwK36

Muzzle Velocity: - 820 m/sec.
Armour Penetration: -
APC - 105mm@1000m@60deg.
APCR - 103mm@1000m@60deg.
HEAT - 165mm@all ranges@60deg.
 
90mm M41 gun (as mounted in the M48 medium tank), L/50
Muzzle Velocity: - 884m/sec (APCBC) M82, 853m/sec (APCBC) M318, 853m/sec (HEAT) M348a1, HVAP (APDS) 895m/sec.
Armour Penetration: -
HEAT - 190mm@all ranges@60deg.
M332A1 APDS = 160mm@unknown range@unknown (more than likely 500m@60deg).

I'd also recommend consulting - http://www.wwiivehicles.com/usa/guns/90-mm.asp for penetration values for earlier US 90mm guns.

Not really comparable on the basis of the sketchy information available that I've found on the 90mm M41.


Offline dy031101

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Not really comparable on the basis of the sketchy information available that I've found on the 90mm M41.

Maybe the notion of the two being comparable was a result of earlier ammunitions of the M3 gun being of inferior quality as Logan has noted?  Hum......

==============================================================================

I did some further readings on the M47...... it is said that the M47 carries 71 rounds of 90mm ammunitions, with 11 of them stored vertically around the left wall of the turret basket and the remainder in racks under the basket floor.

Is that "remainder" as illustrated below the main gun in the attached diagram?  Are the racks contained within the diameter of the turret ring or do they extend beyond?  Can I assume that the below floor ammo racks are wet storage?

In fact, where in the diagram is the turret ring floor?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 09:52:10 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
Don't assume that such diagrams are necessarily 100% accurate.

The ammunition obviously went somewhere!



I doubt it would be wet stowage under the floor.  My limited experience is that underfloor stowage tends to be dry.  Most of your questions might be better asked over at Tanknet than here.  There they have people who actually crewed many of these vehicles.  Just be aware, they are though, a bit, shall we say, paranoid over there.   :o

Offline Old Wombat

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Not a whif but what an awesome diorama possibility! 8)

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Offline jcf

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The other thing to remember about manual diagrams of that sort (cars, tanks, planes etc.) is that they
often omit features that would obscure what the diagram is pointing out. They are not the same as an 'artistic cutaway'.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline GTX_Admin

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Random idea:  M60 fitted with turret from Gepard to create air defence version of M60.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Not quite a Gepard turret, but here's a Marksman turret on an M60! LINK to more pics.



And then there's this cool-looking beast, the XM246, competitor to the ill-fated "Sgt York".

« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 06:26:28 AM by ChernayaAkula »
Cheers,
Moritz

"The appropriate response to reality is to go insane!"

Offline GTX_Admin

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Thanks mate!  I figured someone would have done something before.  My thoughts are that the M-60AD would be a quick development in the '70s/'80s instead of the M247.
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline dy031101

  • Yuri Fanboy and making cute stuff practical- at least that's the plan anyway
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From a survivability perspective, it would be tactically sound to use the same turret as the standard tank to get rid of that signature look that identifies you as the higher threat in any engagement.  Use the standard turret and all of the normal features to help it blend in with the rest of the tribe and not stand out as the target to be engaged first.

Would you think it possible for a T-55M3 (see attachment) to be hard to distinguish from a Sabra III from a distance?

I brought up the T-55M3 because, at least the way I see it, the turrets of the T-55 and the M48 are somewhat similar in shapes...... perhaps a up-armouring package that can double as a vismod of sort for that M48 with 152mm gun-launcher to help blending in with allied Sabra III?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:06:17 AM by dy031101 »
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline dy031101

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Attachment 1: The turret on the afore-posted M48 with 152mm gun-launcher appears to be that of a T95 medium tank prototype.

Attachment 2: Another development armed with 152mm gun-launcher...... this time with the long-barreled M150.  The turret seems conventional, but the location of the gunner's sight...... looks weird.
Forget about his bow and arrows- why wait until that sparrow has done his deed when I can just bury him right now 'cause I'm sick and tired of hearing why he wants to have his way with the cock robin!?

Offline Logan Hartke

  • High priest in the black arts of profiling...
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America, where M60A3 tanks are used to fight avalanches.



Quote
State Military Might in the Cascades

The fall comes early to Stevens Pass, where US Route 2 arcs through the Cascade Mountains east of Everett. Here the leaves are changing color in early September and Marty Schmoker makes his final plans for the annual battle against Mother Nature in keeping the pass clear for travel and commerce. Stevens Pass is the northernmost pass kept open year-round in the lower 48 states. Schmoker, a 43-year old native of Leavenworth, nestled below the eastern approaches to the pass, works for the Washington Department of Transportation (DOT) as its Avalanche Control Supervisor for the north central region of the state.

Despite its higher altitude, Stevens Pass actually experiences fewer closures than Snoqualmie Pass. Avalanche Control works apart but in coordination with the maintenance teams, based at a large complex located six miles east of the pass. Once built as a self-contained maintenance city of crew billeting and equipment garages, the large dormitories now stand idle, with only 10% of the rooms used for temporary crews brought occasionally from Wenatchee. Both the techniques and manning of pass maintenance have changed over the last generation, and the massive manual efforts of yesteryear have been largely replaced by technicians and specialized equipment.

For a “general” planning a long campaign against the forces of nature, Schmoker calls upon a rather small army: two permanent and three temporary employees comprise the Stevens Pass shop; Snoqualmie has a separate unit, but that one receives its weapons from Schmoker during the “season.”

In snow season, Schmoker’s team makes daily weather and snow observations, beginning about 3:30am. The Northwest Avalanche Center at Sand Point provides overall reports and maintains data bases, but Schmoker also has historical data for Stevens Pass, going back to 1910 [detailed scientific data since 1956]. A “Nearest Neighbor Model” computer simulation exists for avalanche use, but Stevens Pass conditions present nearly impossible odds for prediction.

The decision for a tactical “mission” to bring down a snow pack and ease the increasing danger of a more major avalanche later brings Schmoker’s team to their arsenal. Besides improvised explosive charges placed using snow cat tractors in the center or top of snow pack (feasible when the snow is dry), Schmoker has acquired an impressive array of surplus military ordnance. Recoilless rifles have been in use the longest. The crews prefer these aging 105mm weapons from the 1950s, mostly because of a now-dwindling supply of high explosive shells which have produced the best results. A 105mm howitzer also fires high explosive projectiles, but at a lower velocity and with less accuracy than the recoilless riles. But the supply of munitions for the venerable M101A1 howitzer, still in use worldwide, will remain endless. The newest addition is a platoon of M60A3 tanks, acquired in 1995. The tank now serves as the preferred weapon on the western approaches to Stevens Pass, and the recoilless rifles serve on the eastern side, with the howitzer held in reserve. Some of the recoilless rifles are sent to the Snoqualmie unit as the preferred weapons there.

The tank cannot cover the eastern approaches because of the steep elevations required and the four firing platforms used to cover the snow packs. Deep snow makes it impossible for the tank to move between them. The foot of Old Faithful, where the snow threatens the Tye Valley western approaches, can be reached from a single firing position, and the tank stands vigil there in-season.

Washington State’s DOT started acquiring these weapons in 1961. The state national guard required three days notice for normal activation of personnel and this was not sufficient for the conditions. The transfer of weapons from guard and federal government sources thus improved the situation. The DOT arsenal now consists of four tanks, M60A3, with 105mm cannon; five 105mm recoilless rifles, M27; and one M101A1 105mm howitzer. Marty Schmoker also considered using aircraft, an OV-10 observation plane and a UH-1H helicopter, both equipped to carry 5-inch rocket pods. However the rockets remain too unreliable for the precision task at hand and the public safety environment. Of the four tanks, the most recent acquisitions, only one stands duty at Stevens Pass, and the other three remain in storage at the Yakima Firing Center. Although only one tank is required for Stevens Pass and another earmarked for eventual use at Snoqualmie, the other two will remain at Yakima as training and spare vehicles. With the surplus tank fleet depleting rapidly in the 1990s, Schmoker made his calculations for a program lasting over twenty years and rounded up the vehicles, parts and ammunition to sustain the DOT operation, long after the remaining surplus vehicles will have gone to scrap yards and museums. Schmoker takes his full team to Yakima for annual gunnery training at the Army Firing Range each fall. Ammunition for the tank is ordered from the Army, from a total of 80,000 rounds of a selected lot of plastic high explosive rounds set aside for DOT use. At a bargain price of $18.00 per round, it is shipped annually to Avalanche Control for their use.

The older recoilless rifles are fired from fixed towers and ground mounts. They remain a handy weapon, easily sited in tight spots, as long as sufficient space remains for the firing back blast peculiar to their design. The supply of 105mm HE rounds for the gun has dwindled to a mere 1150 and a change to the plastic explosive projectiles will bring unwanted duds, which have to be located and neutralized in the spring.

How much ammunition is required? Schmoker’s men expend anywhere from zero to six or seven hundred rounds per year. In 1999, a below average year, Schmoker directed two tank missions and 16 other ones, totaling about 200 rounds of ammunition. In 1998, a total of 150 recoilless rifle and 210 tank gun rounds were expended.

The DOT obtained the howitzer in 1991 and Schmoker’s men took a three day course at Yakima, from the guard artillery regiment. The M60 arrived in 1995 for evaluation. The guardsmen fired it that winter and Schmoker’s men took over thereafter. In each case, Schmoker’s men have altered the firing procedures to emphasize safety vice the speed of combat firing procedures. Schmoker is now writing a series of operating manuals for the use of these and other weapons in avalanche control, which the DOT will furnish in CD format to other states using weapons this way. These instructions include the maintenance, crew organization, operation, firing procedures for snow control and concepts for minimum manning. These will take the place of a broad range of military manuals previously needed, as well as supplying some of the peculiarities of snow control with weapons.

All five of Schmoker’s crew routinely operate all weapons. They have trained at each position on the tank and frequently enjoy training exchanges and competitions with Army and ANG personnel. The idea of a tank came late to Schmoker, who was looking for flat-trajectory weapons to supplement and eventually replace his older recoilless rifles. When at Yakima, officers told him that the dozens of M60 tanks stored there had been earmarked for disposal. Many would be stripped for dumping in the ocean as artificial reefs for fishery programs. Knowing that the high velocity tank gun would meet his needs, Schmoker looked for an opportunity to test and perchance acquire one or more of these 57-ton monsters for his DOT arsenal. Because of the higher velocity of its projectile, Schmoker found that no duds occurred when firing 105mm tank rounds into the snow, including the plastic explosive projectiles. Faced with a 1:4 dud rate with plastic ammo in the recoilless rifles [only 1:400 with the scarcer HE ammo], the tank seemed ideal.

At its firing position west of the summit, the tank crew prepares targeting range cards to the 12 impact points used to bring down the snow pack. These calculations of elevation and deflection can then be used day or night for fire missions (nighttime is preferred, to minimize public attention). Since 1996, the tank has performed all missions in the west side, and the howitzer has been relegated to backup status. It has also been employed on occasion in the North Cascade Highway ( merely to test the snow stability, used there as a tool vice an avalanche control measure) to economize on recoilless rifle ammo.

Other U.S. states presently using surplus military weapons include Alaska, Utah, Wyoming, and Colorado; the National Park Service and the U.S. Forest Service also have similar operations.

Marty Schmoker has qualified himself as an operator and maintenance man in all these and other weapons. He calls upon the ANG for an annual technical inspection, but otherwise performs the maintenance which would be done by specialists in regular tank battalions. His parts array includes spare engines and spare barrels for the tanks as well as two full sets of track. He once threw a track on the tank and restored it himself, taking all day to do what normally requires most of the crew to do. The furnishing of a tank to a civilian organization, albeit from a state government, attracted much concern and attention from defense sectors. Legislators, the Army, the Dept of Defense and others all weighed into the project, especially after an unfortunate incident occurred in San Diego, where a disgruntled guardsman stole an M60 tank and led police forces on a wild chase on road and freeway. Schmoker demonstrated the control provided by his facility and other safety and security measures to satisfy a large gathering of state and Pentagon officials.


Cheers,

Logan

Offline Old Wombat

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Now, couldn't you just see that M60 in yellow & hi-viz orange, so they didn't lose it in the snow!? ;D
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Kerick

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That hi vis green or yellow color seen on certain fire trucks. :o

Offline GTX_Admin

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They tell you its to fight avalanches…in reality it is part of the ongoing war against the Yeti invasion of the USA... 8)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Rickshaw

  • "Of course, I could be talking out of my hat"
They tell you its to fight avalanches…in reality it is part of the ongoing war against the Yeti invasion of the USA... 8)

With only five tanks stopping them, they can't be much of an invasion force...  ;)

Offline Old Wombat

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Well, there aren't many of them ............. but it takes at least one round of 105mm HEAT to stop one. ;)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Well, there aren't many of them ............. but it takes at least one round of 105mm HEAT to stop one. ;)
At least we don't have to worry about bunyip infestations here in Washington State :)
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Offline Volkodav

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