Author Topic: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 72628 times)

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2013, 02:23:09 AM »
If true VTOL was removed as a requirement, is there an engine adaptable to the T.2 that would allow the carriage of two AN/ALQ-99 pods, tail receiver, and extra fuel?   Or are we looking at something that needs a runway as long as Houston?
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #76 on: March 31, 2013, 04:41:17 AM »
Define what you mean by "true VTOL removed"?  Do you still want something with STOL or are you after a pure CTOL.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #77 on: March 31, 2013, 04:53:12 AM »
What did they call it....S/VTOL?    Short runs to become airborne vs. true vertical take off. 

Perhaps some background would clarify better:  The scenario going through my head was Korea, current day, conflict erupts.  USMC/US Army/UN need jamming in a rapidly changing battlefield.   EA-18G's and EA-6B present but are in insufficient numbers on station so the Harrier is reentered into service. (yeah, right.  But it's the Whiffverse.   ;D)    But, would the above loadout be too heavy?  Or too heavy at least for a short run takeoff where say, for instance, 300 feet of PSP could be tossed out relatively quickly for take off/landing.    It seems that the small winged Harriers could not land with a weapons load.      Given the terrain of the Koreas, the Harrier seems like a reasonable option...or an Osprey but that's a different discussion.   ;D
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #78 on: March 31, 2013, 05:07:02 AM »
TheHarrier rarely does VTO in service anyway.  It is more often a rolling STO, so you are already there.

Re the weight, I doubt it would be a problem.  I understand the AN/ALQ-99 pods weight approx 950lb each so somehting such as a T.10 or T.12 (backseater to operate the pods etc) with 2 - 4 pods should be doable.

Would look good in either USMC/RAF/RN  or even at a stretch in Sth Korean markings.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #79 on: March 31, 2013, 06:50:18 AM »
It's actually what I'm using here, except they're turned upside-down and what was the bottom is now made conformal to the underside of the Harrier

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #80 on: March 31, 2013, 12:45:33 PM »
A rather interesting read on the GR.9 capabilities:
http://grandlogistics.blogspot.com/2012/03/libya-harrier-versus-tornado.html

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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #81 on: March 31, 2013, 08:05:29 PM »
I have been slapped down else where for suggesting that the entire "Joint Harrier Force" was a ploy by the RAF to gain control of the Sea Harriers so they could position themselves to kill RN carrier aviation (and carriers) all together.  The RAF have always excelled at staff work and grand strategy.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #82 on: April 01, 2013, 12:41:50 AM »
The ancient doctrine of Those Who Control The Ships Win Everything still applies.   

So perhaps ex-RAF Harrier GR.x's could be put into RN markings and stationed aboard merchant ships traveling through Somalian waters.   Fuel, Adens, and Brimstones.

Or take it even further:  Asia heats up: China v. Japan, China v. Vietnam, N. Korea v.  S. Korea yet use to their roles in current economies, trade continues.    For merchant ship defense, Harrier II's are fitted with Blue Vixen radars, Meteors and IRIS-T's.    RN markings of course.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 02:33:23 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #83 on: April 01, 2013, 02:53:52 AM »
This pic I posted earlier can be credited to 'Spinners', who is on the What-If Forum

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #84 on: April 01, 2013, 04:20:27 AM »
Cool!  I really wish he would come join us.
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2013, 02:29:37 PM »
While Kongsberg Penguins likely would be better carried by the big wing Harrier, how about putting a pair on the inner pylons of a FA.2 and fuel on the outer pylons.   Practical?  I'm sure not.  As to the designation of the machine, would FGR.2 work?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2013, 10:50:16 PM »
While Kongsberg Penguins likely would be better carried by the big wing Harrier, how about putting a pair on the inner pylons of a FA.2 and fuel on the outer pylons.   Practical?  I'm sure not.  As to the designation of the machine, would FGR.2 work?
Given what the pylons are stressed for and plumbed for, I could see a Penguin on each outer pylon with fuel tanks on the inner pylons.

I'm scheming an earlier iteration for an Argentinian "Matador" operating out of the Malvinas (so fuel tanks are not required).  Inner pylons carry Martin Pescador missiles (think of it as an indigenously-produced equivalent of the early Bullpup) with Sidewinders on the outer pylons and the guidance pod on the centerline hardpoint.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #87 on: April 13, 2013, 07:11:16 AM »
As a carry over from the A-4 thread, how about a SAV-8 derived from a two-seater and carrying, for the first generation, just sensors, and, for the second generation, sensors and weapons or just one of those.  I could see a sensor equipped SAV-8 pursuing a contact while and armed helo takes the shot; or vice-versa.  For that matter, a two-ship SAV-8 hunter-killer team.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #88 on: April 13, 2013, 07:29:08 AM »
Don't forget the third necessary team member:  the refueler.   ;D
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #89 on: April 14, 2013, 12:22:05 PM »
Don't forget the third necessary team member:  the refueler.   ;D
The second Harrier SIG "Whif" issue has a Harrier KR.3(N) and I can see a Harrier KR.5(N) being built from those airframes not upgraded to GR.7's with large tanks on the two heavy-duty hardpoints on each wing and the two light-weight hardpoints carrying small tanks.  On the US side, I can see the guts of a buddy-refueling pod inserted into a modified AV-8B cannon pod with the ammo pod mounting the signal lights and carrying associated avionics and controls.  A KV-8B with four large tanks and two small tanks on the outer hardpoints would be unique.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #90 on: April 14, 2013, 02:20:24 PM »
Sea Harrier FRS.1  with a pair of Kormorans for various NATO countries besides Germany.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #91 on: April 14, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »
Sea Harrier FRS.1  with a pair of Kormorans for various NATO countries besides Germany.

How about Greece, Turkey or Denmark - all those little islands to operate from.....
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2013, 02:36:53 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48? 
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2013, 04:38:08 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48?
Would it be the SHAR or the SHAR airframe with the radar replaced by a LRMTS, or equivalent avionics, as was proposed for the PRC? 

I can think of a few ideas; taking a leaf from F-102 actions in Southeast Asia, how about a modified Sidewinder with the seeker tuned to IR signatures of vehicles for night interdiction?  Or, if you're going into a air-defense radar thick environment, perhaps some upgraded Sidearms based on later-model Sidewinder airframes?

I'd reckon that the small, four round, 70mm rocket pod would work, too.  As I remember, the RAF carried single MATRA pods on that hardpoint, so anything up to that weight should work.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2013, 04:49:42 AM »
Presuming that McDD produced a SHAR and the US Army used them, what would be suitable droppables for the two outer pylons that is available in 1:48?

What role do you see the Army SHAR's performing?
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2013, 05:00:08 AM »
Any kind of ground attack, no air to air.
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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #96 on: April 22, 2013, 05:09:39 AM »
Ignoring the obvious "why not just get AV-8A/B etc", I would imagine that pretty much what ever the AV-8A/GR.3 used would be the way to go.  Therefore, unguided rockets, iron/cluster bombs, AGMs such as Maverick...
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #97 on: April 22, 2013, 05:17:54 AM »
Ignoring the obvious "why not just get AV-8A/B etc", I would imagine that pretty much what ever the AV-8A/GR.3 used would be the way to go.  Therefore, unguided rockets, iron/cluster bombs, AGMs such as Maverick...
Well, if you're buying in the early 1970's, the SHAR airframe would be the only one in production and what you'd buy would be based off that.  Much of the reason the proposed variant for the PLAAF was based on the SHAR airframe with GR.3 avionics and LRMTS (as well as commonality with the SHAR variant proposed to the PLANAF).  I could see the US Army doing a later, joint buy, of the AV-8B with the USMC.

*chuckle* To really confuse things, perhaps the US Army aircraft using modified SHAR airframes could be designated AV-6B's?  Since the Kestrel was the XV-6A....
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 05:30:38 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #98 on: April 22, 2013, 05:21:42 AM »
 ;D
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Harrier/Harrier II (AV-8...) Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #99 on: July 06, 2013, 12:42:28 AM »
As a counter to the MiG-29s reportedly being sent to Syria, the Harrier GR.7/9s the U.S. just got from the UK get AV-8B seats and sent to Israel and stationed in various urban buildings for a temporary air defense squadron.    So....4 Meteors and 2 IRIS-T's perhaps.   
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