Author Topic: 3D Printers  (Read 43105 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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3D Printers
« on: December 21, 2011, 04:43:26 PM »
Hi folks,

Has anyone looked into desktop 3D printers as an adjunct to modeling?  I am interested in them and would keen to hear others thoughts.

Regards,

Greg
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Offline Litvyak

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2011, 04:49:43 PM »
I've used a 3D printing service and have seen others' similar projects, and I have to say: with the right choice of material and a good quality 3D drawing, it can be a very useful thing! I've contemplated using it to make conversion parts for an AltCan CF-108 and for other projects, even for complete "kits"... just a matter of drawing the 3D to be printed.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2011, 12:33:05 AM »
If you want to do 3D printing as a hobby in itself,  then sure - there are very low end machines that you can make or buy for around $1K, but the parts are not model ready. For about $2K you can make a better UV curing poly machine.

 If what you want is to design a part in a 3D program and produce a model part without worrying about the minutiae of the steps in between, then 3D printing is absolutely not something you want to do at home. It's expensive, time consuming and requires a fair amount of tweaking and experience to get a good result.
If you want a model part, the cheapest fastest and least frustrating method is to send it off to a printing bureau like Shapeways. Their high end Frosted Detail and Frosted Ultra Detail is the way to go. The printed parts will still have some steps in them, but in most cases they'll be nearly invisible under a coat of paint or easily dealt with with some light sanding and polishing.
Their detail material also works, but the results will require a fair amount of sanding to remove the printing steps.

The 1/350 Bonestell Moonrocket I posted over on the Whatif forum was made using their clear detail material.
This 1/350 scale UFO from the "Invaders" TV series was also done in their clear detail material; you can clearly see the steps. Some of the fine details are obscured by the printing artifacts. The saucer is about 65mm in dia.:



I haven't printed this in the Frosted detail yet, but it'll probably be ready to go out of the printer.
In the US, another company that does small printing orders for modelers is PCS Engineering. They have a printer with an even higher resolution than the best Shapeways has to offer. Their parts are ready to go right off the printer. When I made the clear engines for the Leif Ericson, I printed out a copy at PCS for Round 2 to use in their display model.
This is the original kit's engine above my copy, which is in the new re-issue:


Obviously this is styrene, but the PCS parts were almost as smooth as this.

frank
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 12:35:39 AM by Frank3k »

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2011, 09:50:33 AM »
This is the type of system I have been looking at:  http://www.bitsfrombytes.com/

Add in a 3D scanner and you have some interesting possibilities...
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2011, 10:15:53 AM »
Greg, Those printers are not going to get adequate for model work, unless you're making very simple parts for very large scale models. The resolution is just too low.
Even the lowest resolution printers at Shapeways are far better than the RepRap or equivalent hobbyist printers.

To get reasonable model parts, you'd need something like a Projet or Objet printer. The UFO above was printed on an Objet printer at high speed (lower resolution) at the lower speed/higher resolution, the steps were still there, just not as bad.

We're talking $15000 printers. Plus the material (expensive).

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 07:51:57 AM »
Thanks Frank.  I typically play in 1/48 or 1/35 so I wonder how those would go?   I also wonder how one would go printing a part, then giving it a primer coat or similar to smooth everything out and then scribe in any finer details?
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 10:18:42 AM »
Thanks Frank.  I typically play in 1/48 or 1/35 so I wonder how those would go?


Nothing at the "home" level would look good for anything under 1:1.... and maybe not even then!

Right now, Shapeways is the best way to go if you want to experiment. They ship worldwide and they're pretty inexpensive (in part because they're backed by Philips) They have a materials samples kit which covers their more common materials. It's $30US but includes a $25 discount coupon.
Based on the samples listed, the Frosted Ultra Detail, White Detail and Black Detail are the only ones worth considering for models. The White Strong and Flexible is a possibility, but it's composed of sintered nylon particles, so no amount of sanding will remove the grain. For this material, you have to coat it in primer (often many applications, since it'll soak up the primer) then sand away.

Quote from: GTX_Admin
I also wonder how one would go printing a part, then giving it a primer coat or similar to smooth everything out and then scribe in any finer details?


1 - in a 3D program, make the part, then export the part in a file format that Shaepways will recognize. STL is the standard.
2- use a program like the free version of Netfabb to check your STL file and make sure that your object is water-tight and printable.
3 - Look at the Shapeways materials web page and make sure that you've met or exceeded their minimum design requirements for wall thickness and details. Their design limits are usually well above the limits of the machines; this is done to decrease the printing time (fewer parts that need to be re-printed) and lowering the cost.
4 - upload the part and have them print it in the material of your choice. With luck, it'll pass their checks and after a week or two, you'll get your part.

From experience, the loop between steps 3 & 4 will take up most of your design time. They will reject parts for even tiny deviations from their design rules.

Typically, the white detail can reproduce details down to 0.2mm, so you can include quite a bit of detail. The only problem is that the printing artifacts will require a fair amount of PSR and that'll wipe out some of the finer details.

 Just for that, the Frosted Ultra detail parts are the way to go. Not only are details down to 0.1mm, depending on the part, they may only require a minimum amount of sanding and a regular coat of primer will be enough to eliminate the printing artifacts.

Look at the parts samples for Frosted detail and Frosted Ultra Detail: http://www.shapeways.com/materials/frosted_detail

The tracked gear is painted, the truck is unpainted. From the looks of it, I wouldn't bother to do any sanding - it looks ready for painting. The printing artifacts here are the slightly grainy appearance and on the tires and faint lines on the sides.


The main reason why you can't make an exact prediction on the amount of work that these parts will require once you get them back is because the printing orientation is up to Shapeways (they bunch together several orders and print them all in one batch), so the artifacts may be more or less obvious, depending on how the part was printed.

Frank


Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2013, 01:01:19 AM »
engadget.com - Solidoodle 4 keeps 3D printing under $1,000 (video)

solidoodle.com web page Out-of-the-box 3D Printing — starting at just $499 for the Solidoodle 2 3D Printer. 

Not sure about the material used for creating the objects.  I know it is a plastic of some kind but is it compatible with the paints, adhesives and glues that we normally use for model building?  Still, a 3D printer for under $1000.00 is certainly attractive but what is the cost of the material needed to create your 3D printed objects?  The video below states that the material used is ABS plastic.  Not very familiar with that myself but perhaps others have more experience with it.  The printing material is $43.00 for a spool that weighs 2.0 pounds.  So depending on the project size, your material consumption may impact on the overall cost to create the printed object. 

solidoodle.com FaceBook page

Solidoodle 2 3D Printer
Solidoodle 2 3D Printer
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 01:24:41 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline jcf

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2013, 02:31:38 AM »
It's another melted plastic wire build-up machine with moderate resolution,
okay for tchotchkes but you'd need to sand it for plamo purposes, unless
you work the texture into the design.

ABS is the material used in the majority of Plastruct architectural shapes,
it uses strong solvent glues and can be painted. However it's working
properties are quite a bit different from the HIPS (high impact polystyrene)
beloved of plamo folks.

ABS is more rubbery than polystyrene, don't let the styrene in the name fool
ya, styrene monomer is the predecessor of a number of compound, not just
HIPS.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene

Frankly I still don't see 3-D printers as truly useful to the average modeller,
combine the learning curve of proper CADD modeling with the cost of the
equipment and to me it makes more sense to just practice your kit-bashing,
PSR, and simple scratch-building skills. Even if you totally mess up the new
part, what are you out? Maybe a couple of bucks in material and the time you
spent, but, it's your hobby is it not? So the time wasn't wasted and the failure
at least taught you what not to do, so when you start over you are better informed.



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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2013, 02:35:52 AM »
Right at the moment my focus is upon such printers that can print Inconel, Titanium, Aluminium etc... ;)
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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2013, 02:39:07 AM »
Frankly I still don't see 3-D printers as truly useful to the average modeller,
combine the learning curve of proper CADD modeling with the cost of the
equipment and to me it makes more sense to just practice your kit-bashing,
PSR, and simple scratch-building skills.

I agree that is the case at this stage.  I do envisage a point in the future though where things may be different.  Either through better software, the ability to purchase & download 'patterns' from model companies or perhaps a growing industry of 'pattern' designers who simply sell the downloadable file for others to use in their printers.  Of course, printers will also need to be improved although that is happening.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2013, 03:44:28 AM »
Greg -  Shapeways can print metals (steel, silver, brass, bronze) but I doubt the prints have the accuracy or durability required to last in a rocket engine or a jet.

Home 3D printing with the surface resolution the typical hobbyist imagines (or would accept) is many years or a decade  or more away. If you're also a 3D printer hobbyist, you can make one now for a few thousand $... but the time and money overhead of operating a 3D printer would be a real drag.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2013, 03:51:23 AM »
My requirements are not something Shapeways can help with.  I am talking about producing real aircraft/gas turbine components... ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2013, 06:13:36 AM »
My requirements are not something Shapeways can help with.  I am talking about producing real aircraft/gas turbine components... ;)
when you've sorted that you could have a conversation with a certain submarine builder / maintainer about hull penetrations

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2013, 03:50:20 AM »
My requirements are not something Shapeways can help with.  I am talking about producing real aircraft/gas turbine components... ;)
Worked as a dedsign engineer for Pratt & WHitney Canada for 15 years and have also bought many, many components made from most of the metals available to 3D rapid prototyper.

Unless you are talking, possibly, some of the cold end cases, the strength and fracture toughness simply isn't there for any of these materials for real life uses. Even hobby gas turbines for a model jet. At the small scale of the hobby turbines, the truely horrible surface finish of the parts will significantly reduce performance. And a single discontinuity in a stressed part will result in failure much earlier than any homogeneous part.

If you are looking to make something like a gearbox or front frame or inlet case, then, maybe  (maybe) you can get away with it acknowledging the hit you'll take due to surface finish and inaccuracies. If you use the parts as preforms for final machining or plating operations to improve properties, accuracy or finishes, that can save a lot of money, but it will cost a LOT of money. Not what I'd think of as hobby levels of funding.

And don't even think of these materials for any of the rotating components. Simply not on. The blades will fail massively due to fatique and/or impact fracture if the engine ingests a bit of sand.

The technology is just not at this level yet.

Paul

Offline Spey Phantom

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2013, 04:42:00 PM »
3D printing is one thing i have concidered quite a few times.
but current printers are quite expensive (between 900 and 1500 Euro's for the pre-assembled ones).
but the concept of 3D printing is fairly new, and there are still some problems with resolution, not to mention that the printing process is still very slow (up to 3 to 6 hours, depending on the size of the part).

3D  printing could be usefull for pringing out parts that are to complex to scratchbuild.
for exsample the nose and tailsections of a Nimrod AEW.3, or engine cowlings for a C-130.

looking at the toner/ASB fibre used, it is in some cases cheaper then moulding resin.

i read earlier this week that HP is developing a household 3D printer that would be more affordable and practical.
however, you still need to learn how to use 3D CAD/CAM design software.

all i can say and do, is wait and see what comes up  8)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2014, 11:13:14 AM »
A very interesting comparison of some of the printers currently available
http://www.gizmag.com/2013-3d-printer-comparison-guide/30187/


All I can say is I am glad I am alive in this day and age

http://www.gizmag.com/spike-laser-measurement-smartphone/30218/

Being able to transfer this data to 3D modelling software automatically hence scaling and printing....... ;D
« Last Edit: January 01, 2014, 11:15:28 AM by Volkodav »

Offline Weaver

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2014, 04:02:26 AM »


 ;D
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Offline Morgeorge

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2014, 05:31:36 PM »
I bought my Felix printer last year; and I choose it over Makerbot because it has a bigger print bed size which is 255x205x235mm. For some odd reason, I prefer large scale print bed and high resistance filament like 3D2print’s nylon filament than plastic PLA to create prototypes. Don’t have yet a 3D printer? Then I guess you can ask for 3D printer services like Thingverse and Shapeways to do your favour.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #19 on: June 05, 2014, 06:56:03 PM »
I bought my Felix printer last year; and I choose it over Makerbot because it has a bigger print bed size which is 255x205x235mm. For some odd reason, I prefer large scale print bed and high resistance filament like 3D2print’s nylon filament than plastic PLA to create prototypes.
Hi George,

Does the nylon media have a rough finish?  Can you sand it to smooth out the surface of the printed object if it does have a rough finish?
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2014, 07:12:06 AM »
An interesting review of some click2detail products and the potential for 3D printing and our hobby:

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2014, 07:05:54 PM »
Very interesting model but boy does that bloke like the sound of his own voice.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2014, 02:47:46 AM »
Didn't worry me.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2014, 03:55:24 AM »
Very interesting model but boy does that bloke like the sound of his own voice.

I thought the same thing.

It looks like Click2Detail is using an Polyjet printer (same as Shapeways at their highest quality) although they seem to be running them closer to the design limits. Getting a smooth surface from a Polyjet is easy - as long as the areas with printing artifacts are accessible. I was cringing at the way he was handling that model. The resin used by the Polyjet printers (and most high res printers) feels very solid but it will break very easily.

If you want ultra smooth surfaces or very fine details you need a Viper, InVision or Perfactory printer... but now you're talking prices that are higher than even Click2Details inflated prices.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2014, 04:16:24 AM »
folks,

Whilst not related to models per sae, the following two stories give you an insight of how this technology is moving in the real world:

GE makes additive manufacturing announcement at Farnborough airshow

Optomec Awarded $4M Project From America Makes To Implement Metal 3D Printing For U.S. Air Force Repair Applications
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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2014, 04:36:00 AM »
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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2014, 05:21:24 AM »
I think I'm getting confused as to how these things work.  I thought they were like a computer run milling machine, but this seems to be something a bit different. 

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2014, 07:15:13 AM »
I think I'm getting confused as to how these things work.  I thought they were like a computer run milling machine, but this seems to be something a bit different.

They're completely different. A 3D milling machine removes material, while 3D printers add.

There are 3D printers that can print directly in metal or other non-plastic materials, but let's focus on the printers within hobbyist reach:

Most of the cheap low end printers (like the Dremel, above) are extrusion printers (FDM - fused deposition modeling) and typically use a thermoplastic material (like ABS) heated in a nozzle. The printer deposits layers of molten plastic to build up the model. The results will usually have noticeable steps that will require effort to remove or conceal.

Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) fires a laser into an easily melted powder, like nylon. The small particles stick together, layer by layer, until the model is completed. The results have a grainy finish. You cannot sand the model to eliminate the graininess, because it's grainy all the way through. The particles are just stuck together. You can soak it in paint or primer and sand that.

Color printing can be done with a plaster-like powder and special inkjet heads (Powder bed Printing). The result is grainy (like plaster) and fragile, but you can get a nice color representation.

Stereolithography fires a laser (usually UV, but not always) into a vat of photosensitive resin. The model is built up layer by layer. Stereolithography has the advantage of extremely high resolution and many models will require little if any post processing.


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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2014, 02:50:35 AM »
Nice summary Frank. :)

Give it a few more years and I am sure you will see the price of these come down and the resolution etc go up.

As for the industrial level, there is a lot happening, especially with metals such as titanium.  Some of the techniques are SLS.  Others use electron beams and wire fed.  Platforms such as the 787 and F-35 will have these parts.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2014, 12:22:43 PM »
Nice summary Frank. :)

Give it a few more years and I am sure you will see the price of these come down and the resolution etc go up.

As for the industrial level, there is a lot happening, especially with metals such as titanium.  Some of the techniques are SLS.  Others use electron beams and wire fed.  Platforms such as the 787 and F-35 will have these parts.

Yes its very exciting, I particularly like the suggestion that large industrial 3D printers could be embarked on board the USNs carriers which could then manufacture parts, consumables, even ordinance and complete UCAVs as required.  The materials needed by the printers would take up less volume than the actual spares etc. currently carried.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 12:40:17 PM »
There is certainly a lot of talk of that - see here for example.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2014, 01:25:44 AM »
One additional benefit of 3D printing is that you no longer need to create a different scale master for each item offered for sale.  A very good example of this was experienced this morning when I discovered a set of six Para-Pack racks for the C-47/Dakota that were only available in 1:72nd scale at Shapeways.  A quick note to the creator asking if they could be made available in 1:48th scale resulted in that actually happening within an hour of posting my query. 

Link to 1:72nd scale Parapacks (set of six) @Shapeways.com

Link to 1:48th scale Parapacks (set of six) @Shapeways.com

So for anyone that has a 1:48th scale Monogram C-47 kit (or the Trumpeter kit) that wishes to add a nice detail feature to the underside of the fuselage this is your chance to do so at a reasonable price. 


***Update:  I just ordered two sets of the 48th scale Para-Pack Racks in frosted ultra-high detail plastic @$30.00/ea.  Hoping to see them on my front door step before the end of the year :)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 01:52:53 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2014, 02:25:18 AM »
One additional benefit of 3D printing is that you no longer need to create a different scale master for each item offered for sale. 

In general, yes. If the original design has been made to minimize volume (and cost) rescaling may result in wall thickness (or details) that are either too thin to print or they will be printable but will deform or break with handling. The designer has to check the new design to make sure it's printable and buildable.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2014, 10:01:47 AM »
Just found out that my local public library has a 3D Printer available to the general public... assuming you are a library member.

I'm going to have to scope out some of the parts I want and then see if I can get hooked up to print them out.

$1.00 setup and $0.05 per minute... nice. :)

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2015, 05:57:11 AM »
As expected, these are becoming more and more prevalent (which will hopefully see great increases in usability, resolution as well as price reductions).  Here are just a couple shown at the recent 2015 Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas:


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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2015, 03:59:04 AM »
A very well done article today at Cracked.com about using 3D printers to help people: 5 Ways to Help the Most People Possible With One 3D Printer


(Image source: Tim Freccia / Not Impossible - Project Daniel)

Image source link provides more information on Not Impossible - Project Daniel if you are interested in learning more about this project.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2015, 11:48:44 PM »
Literally just placed my first order at Shapways and I seriously want to buy my own 3D printer but I don't have a clue where to start or how to workout what to get.

Offline KiwiZac

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2015, 03:06:02 AM »
Just found out that my local public library has a 3D Printer available to the general public... assuming you are a library member.
That is absolutely brilliant.

For fun I went to a local retailer's website to check if their printer price had come down at all. No, but they now have four or five variations, "filament" cartridges in different colours for each brand, and scanners!! 3D scanners! The first one I saw was a handheld, the second a desktop turntable setup. Truly, the possibilities for modelling are endless! Got a rare kit? Scan it before you build it so you can print more! Perfect for my Aurora Cheyenne.

So. Damned. Cool. Of course I can't afford it but, like I assured Sam, I will wait until affordable models are affordable to me.
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Offline arkon

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2015, 11:01:31 AM »
I know most if not all of these printers only print in one material at a time but I'm just wondering if they can print with two different materials, say one plastic and one that conducts electricity, so that you could print your model pre-wired for lights n motors or such.
Just a thought.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2015, 11:21:18 AM »
I know most if not all of these printers only print in one material at a time but I'm just wondering if they can print with two different materials, say one plastic and one that conducts electricity, so that you could print your model pre-wired for lights n motors or such.
Just a thought.


They're working on that, but I don't think there are any commercial products.

For modeling purposes, filament printers are going to leave steps that have to be sanded off or buried under thick paint.
Lazy people like me would rather have a resin printer. Just some minor cleanup and you're good to go.
Resin printers are still in the $2K and up range. There are a couple of Kickstaters for small "hobbyist" resin printers.

Here's a "cheap" one for $3300: http://formlabs.com/products/form-1-plus/

If you don't mind a tiny print area, here's one for $300: http://www.iboxprinters.com/


Offline arkon

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2015, 11:33:12 AM »
I'm not looking to buy one , was just wondering. I saw a picture of a car from this years Sema show where they had a car that was said to be completely 3d printed by a company called Local Motors I believe and was just wonder if that included circuits , so no more wire harness for the car which lead me to think in model applications.
Did not read the whole article on the printed car so I may be jumping to conclusions
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Offline Goonie

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2015, 03:34:24 AM »
My friend send me link to this interesting video: "What if 3D printing was 100x faster?"

http://www.ted.com/talks/joe_desimone_what_if_3d_printing_was_25x_faster#t-626886
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #43 on: June 12, 2015, 12:01:06 PM »
There's a weekly magazine with bits to build your own 3d printer out now.

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2015, 03:38:27 AM »
There's a weekly magazine with bits to build your own 3d printer out now.

That would be this one
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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2015, 07:17:18 AM »
A filament printer like that would be about as useful for modeling as tits on a fish.

Here's a "$60" resin printer that can produce excellent prints with minimal post-processing: http://hackaday.com/2015/06/10/astoundingly-great-60-3d-printer-called-chimera-bests-your-printer/

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #46 on: June 13, 2015, 01:47:32 PM »
There's a weekly magazine with bits to build your own 3d printer out now.

That would be this one

That's the one

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2015, 07:22:33 PM »
I pulled out the items I received Shapeways (in two separate deliveries) and noticed most of them are now covered in a waxy white powder that appears to have excreted from the parts themselves.  I have scraped it away from some of them and they appear ok underneath and items already painted seam unaffected but I am a little concerned of what will happen if this does form under the paint, i.e. will it flake off.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this?  I intend to chase it up through Shapeways as well but thought I'd ask here first.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2015, 11:37:32 PM »
The Shapeways parts always have some support material left over. It's only on the surface. It can be removed with a quick wipe of alcohol or rinsing and brushing in water.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2015, 11:42:35 PM »
Ok I don't think this is it as it wasn't present when I received the items and only appeared about a month later, almost like a white mould or similar.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #50 on: June 22, 2015, 12:04:26 AM »
Ok I don't think this is it as it wasn't present when I received the items and only appeared about a month later, almost like a white mould or similar.

The natural color of the material can be white, in part due to the printing process (it will have a yellowish tint if you polish a part until it's transparent) The white sections are probably areas where the oil has been completely removed or evaporated. Don't worry about it. If the surface doesn't feel oily after cleaning, it's good to go. I always prime the material (Mr. Surfacer works great) and never had an issue.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #51 on: June 22, 2015, 12:39:31 AM »
What I am referring to is a thick as in a couple of millimetres thick waxy feeling powdery build up over the parts, like an oxide coating, or like I said earlier a mould, i.e. the furry white mould that grows on food.  Smaller parts are virtually unrecognisable under this coating.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #52 on: June 22, 2015, 01:45:26 AM »
What I am referring to is a thick as in a couple of millimetres thick waxy feeling powdery build up over the parts, like an oxide coating, or like I said earlier a mould, i.e. the furry white mould that grows on food.  Smaller parts are virtually unrecognisable under this coating.

It may be residue support wax mixed with oil. It should go away after cleaning. There's nothing to leech out of the material, since it isn't a two part resin so residue is either wax, oil or a combination of the two.

If the part doesn't have delicate structures, you can try an old toothbrush to remove the excess, either in lukewarm water with a little soap or with a few drops of IPA.

Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #53 on: June 22, 2015, 02:28:09 AM »
We (my workplace) recently took delivery of a MakerBot Z18 and it's associated Digitizer...guess who's got the manuals in his office right now?  This coming week I plan to get it all set up and calibrated, then run a couple of "test" prints, all in the name of science, of course.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #54 on: June 22, 2015, 11:49:16 AM »
I had a 3D printer in my place of work for rapid prototyping back in 2003, manager was a tool though so none of us got to do any foreignies on it.  At least I had my own work shop purely for fabricating test jigs and widgets etc.  ;)

Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2015, 07:40:13 AM »
I've been playing with our new MakerBot, trying out the different settings and seeing what can/can't be printed.  It's been a definite learning experience, and there's still a lot more to learn before I'd classify myself as more than a novice with this.

Here she is:


Here's what I've printed (other than some of the pre-loaded test files):


The near left is approx 1/48 scale, but the file had some errors so it didn't turn out quite right, the big one in back is approx 1/35 scale and something of an accident.  I had corrected the original file and must have scaled up from my desired 1/48 measurements.  Took about 9 hours to print.  The near right is the last one printed, back at 1/48 scale and there are still some areas that didn't come out right, I think a little putty, paint and sanding will give me a usable zodiac rubber boat.

I've downloaded a bunch of files from SketchUp, converted them to .stl format, then corrected for any issues before loading into the Makerbot software.  We'll see how they turn out. 

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2015, 07:58:47 AM »
Well you have to start somewhere.  At least you did not have to purchase the thing ;)

Once you get some more experience with this I am confident you will be pumping (printing) out some really nice models. 
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Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2015, 08:41:13 AM »
I figured the zodiac was a good "cover" project since our Maritime Archeologist is going to be one of the main users of the printer. 

Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2015, 09:24:55 AM »
OK, a few more test files run and here are the results:



These are 1/35 off road tires/wheels (I slightly scaled down HUMVEE tires to better fit on an M151 Jeep project I have in mind - the tread detail is ok, but the hub detail is non-existent.  I tried to go with Higher resolution settings, but the printer didn't like the file on those settings and aborted - so I went standard and got these - they're probably usable with some work.  Above the tires are Javelin (FGM-148) launchers - again I think they can be used, but the fine details on the controllers will need to be added as the standard settings just couldn't pull it off.  Alternatively, I can separate the tubes and use them as reloads in the back of a vehicle. 



Here we have a pair of AGM-129 Advanced Cruise Missiles - the tail fins and engine intakes have some errors, but they can be fixed and I'll be giving them a reprint in the near future.  Again, standard  settings on the printer, but I may give them a try on high and see what turns up.  If it turns out better - well then I have a master to try and cast a B-1's load in resin.


Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2015, 11:58:12 AM »
The AGM-129 looks promising as do the Javelin missiles.  Looking forward to seeing these items getting fine-tuned. 
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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #60 on: July 11, 2015, 03:50:20 AM »
Very interested in acquiring some 1/48 AGM-129s if you are interested in selling them.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2015, 06:02:12 PM »
Just got an e-mail from Staples (UK stationery supplier): they're selling plug'n'play 3D printers in their high street shops now. £1500 for the base model, £2000 for the better one. No idea how the specs compare to other printers. This is the product page:

http://www.staples.co.uk/lists/nonbrowseskusset?SkusetId=19591&cm_mmc=150715_COR_PRO_UK3_3_E15_07_015_09UK&RegID=-100000&RegID1=-100000&RegID2=0
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Offline jcf

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2015, 01:47:32 AM »
Staples (actually a US based company BTW) is also selling 3D printers through their US stores:
http://www.staples.com/3D-Printers/cat_CL211598
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Offline Weaver

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #63 on: July 17, 2015, 12:42:47 AM »
Staples (actually a US based company BTW) is also selling 3D printers through their US stores:
http://www.staples.com/3D-Printers/cat_CL211598


Didn't know they were a US company: cheers.
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Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2015, 07:47:48 AM »
Very interested in acquiring some 1/48 AGM-129s if you are interested in selling them.


When I get the file refined, I'd be happy to send you a couple.

Here's my latest production:


I've been playing with this as a possible V-44/QTR nacelle.  I think I may have gone a little too big with this, though. 

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2015, 03:18:33 AM »
Can anyone say "V-22 engine upgrade!"? ;)
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Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2015, 09:01:29 AM »
Another start to the work week, another couple 3D printing projects:

Pelican cases:


Barrels, pallets and stokes litters:


Pallet close up:


Litter and barrels:


I have a SAR-type rescue basket file, but the printer doesn't like it right now.  Also working through a couple of inflatable life raft containers during my lunch.

Offline LemonJello

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2015, 04:45:18 AM »
Here's a couple of quick and dirty missile containers I whipped up.  I have intentions of using one of my Trumpeter LAV-25's to make an ADATS type vehicle.




Offline Volkodav

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2015, 06:37:30 PM »
Looking really good and making buying a printer more and more tempting.  The Dremel 3d printer will apparently be available in local hardware stores soon.

Offline 3dtech

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2015, 07:19:45 PM »
The Technology of printing physical 3D objects from digital data using vertical axis manufacturing process is called “additive manufacturing.”

The amount of material, the rotation of the platform and the design of the object is administered in a computer controlled environment.

This technology allows for complex shape, size and dimensions which are not easily or economically available using traditional manufacturing tooling methods.3d printing service india allows low cost production of highly specific, low volume products or mass markets quicker.
thanks.
visit: http://vexmatech.com

Offline Kerick

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2023, 11:30:26 AM »
It seems 3D printing is making quite a difference in our hobby today compared to even a few years ago. I was wondering if someone could explain what would be required today to design and print something respectable. The entries here are from a few years ago so I was hoping for an update for a guy that doesn’t know much about how to do this. I’ve worked with AutoCad years ago but it was 2D and not suitable for this tech. Cost for equipment and software could be a problem too. I’m hoping some folks here could help out with some up to date info. Thanks in advance.

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #71 on: August 29, 2023, 12:56:07 PM »
Blender can be used to make 3D objects - including movies. It has a learning curve that has thankfully become less steep. There are plenty of tutorials online.
FreeCAD may be closer to AutoCAD.

Fusion360 has free versions, which may or may not be useful for model work.

There are expensive 3D modelers with 30 day trials. I've used Rhino3D for years and it's relatively easy to use.

However designing a 3D model is only a small part of the process. You also have to learn how to make the parts printable, which in part depends on the printer you'll be using. Then you have to lay out the part so that it prints correctly. For instancee, Filament (FDM) printers have different requirements than resin printers. These steps require yet more software, which luckily is free or inexpensive.

Offline Kerick

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #72 on: August 29, 2023, 11:13:01 PM »
Thanks! Good to hear some of this software is free!

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2023, 01:42:00 AM »
FDM printers can be used for models and model parts - especially after fine tuning the printer parameters (that's another issue...) but resin printers will have a much higher resolution and produce better prints out of the box.

Resin printers require good ventilation (a grow tent with a vent to the outdoors is the best) and the resin is very messy. You'll also need to wash (with alcohol or water) and cure the prints which adds yet more material (paper towels, alcohol, curing/wash station) and you absolutely need PPE -  while the cured resin is inert, the liquid resin can be nasty. Extended contact without a mask or gloves (and goggles!) can lead to resin sensitivity.

FDM printers are "safer" but they can still generate micro particles and fumes, so venting them (or keeping them in an enclosure) is a good idea.

Offline Kerick

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2023, 07:13:05 AM »
Of course I could buddy up to a couple of guys in my club who are good at this…….

Offline Frank3k

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2023, 07:43:15 AM »
Does anyone in your club have a 3D printer? If you can watch their workflow, you can learn quite a bit (including what not to do...)

Offline tsrjoe

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Re: 3D Printers
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2023, 04:03:47 PM »
A little primer compiled for my students, might be of interest as background ... An introduction to 3D Printing,  Joe Warner Cherrie
 
3D printing, sometimes known as additive manufacturing, is a relatively new entrant to the craft and making scene but has been around longer than you might think. Having first been developed in the 1980’s, more recent developments in the technology and accessibility of use seemingly bringing about a true democratisation of the digital making process
The term ‘3D Printing’ is generic and covers a host of technologies, but they are all united by building up the desired object in incremental layers rather than the more traditional moulding or milling. While generally slower than mainstream technologies, it is increasingly finding a place as part of the manufacturing toolkit, e.g., where it can produce rapid prototypes without the need for mould making, allowing truly novel and intricate shapes which can’t be produced by other means, or where you need high levels of personalisation.
The technology is now seeing more applications with the utilisation of a multitude of materials, and in areas as widespread and demanding as the use of printed sintered metal alloys in critical elements of jet and rocket engines, to biological and organic materials used in the production of precisely tailored medical implants. Items such as personalised in-ear hearing aid or modern ‘Invisalign’ type dental braces utilise the 3D Printed process being common examples of the latter application.
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing

The most common technologies for craft home use 3D Printing are based on either a solid filament extruded through a heated nozzle, ‘FDM.’, or a liquid resin cured by ultraviolet light, ‘DLP.’
-   FDM., or ‘Fusion Deposition Modelling’ (also known as FFF. ‘Fused Filament Fabrication’), uses a solid thermoplastic material which usually comes as a spool roll of filament. The most common materials are :
PLA. (Polylactic Acid), a polyester which behaves a lot like polythene and is derived from corn-starch and is biodegradable (see also ‘Vegware’ biodegradable plastics)
ABS. (Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene) which is a synthetic polymer commonly used for making things like LEGO bricks.
The filament is heated in a print head to a semi molten state and extruded through a fine nozzle which moves over the print adding a bead of plastic as it travels.
A number of alternative plasticised organic materials which can be used as filament include, wood pulp cellulose composites, ceramic clay, seaweed bioplastic, silk polymer, mycelium fungi and even chocolate
FDM has the advantage of being relatively safe, clean and very straightforward with a typical nozzle size of 0.4mm width and layer height of 0.2mm (you can go smaller although resulting in longer print times and higher failure rates) Entry level printers are generally below £150 and are often cheaper second hand as people try them out but get frustrated with recurring failures (generally self-inflicted)
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fused_filament_fabrication

-   DLP., ‘Direct’ or ‘Digital Light Processing’ uses a liquid resin tank with a transparent base and movable build stage suspended within very close to the bottom. UV. light is shone into the tank either as an image by a projector or through an LCD. with a negative mask, which cures the resin it strikes into a solid. The chemistry is similar to acrylic nails and white tooth fillings. The build stage is lifted by a tiny increment and the process repeated. Typical materials are based on epoxy and acrylic thermosetting resin. 
A similar process, SLA. ‘Stereolithography’ printing utilises a similar process utilising a laser to selectively expose the liquid resin to a light source (SLA.  laser, DLP.  projector)
 DLP./SLA. printing can be potentially messy (the resins used are viscous, sticky materials) and requires far more awareness of safe use of the material. The clean-up of completed prints needs rinse cycles, (in IPA. ‘Isopropyl Alcohol’ solvent or water depending on resin type) and further UV. curing. (UVA. Curing booth or sunlight) The resolution for even a cheap (less than £150) consumer printer is remarkably good with layer heights of 0.02mm and very fine parts possible.
Ref. https://formlabs.com/uk/blog/resin-3d-printer-comparison-sla-vs-dlp/
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UV_curing
Both FDM. And DLP./SLA. Printing have their place for the artist designer and desk top modeller and if you order parts from online services such as Shapeways you may see other technologies such as SLS. Selective Laser Sintering) and Polyjet which fuse powder particles together with either heat or a fine jet of glue.

You can find printable open source STL.  files online from a number of places like Thingiverse and Cults websites and many museums like the Smithsonian are scanning and making their collections available to download and use. Some sites charge for models and most have limits on things like commercial reuse. Even if you don’t plan to print, downloading a .stl file can be informative as most Mac and PC computers have built in 3D viewers which allow you to examine an object from any angle.

FDM. type printing has already been utilised to print ‘protein’s creating foodstuffs
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_food_printing
Organic cells have also been utilised to ‘print’ body parts including valves and organs
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_printing

… As for the future … who knows ?  A further democratisation of the technology through open access platforms and home printing ? or perhaps looking slightly further ahead one could postulate ‘Omni replicators’, printing almost anything using molecular reservoirs ? or imagine a doctor or pharmacist sending over a file to a ‘home printer hub’ to produce required medicines at point of use at low cost
Some useful/interesting resources …
Ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_scanning


There are also local FabLab or Makerspace’s to see/try these out for yourself :
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/libraries-and-makerspaces/libraries-and-makerspaces
https://www.fabfoundationuk.org

Compiled with assistance from Alistair Reid (Gannet 3D) & Paul Boyle (PB Models)