Author Topic: The Spanish Civil War, rethought  (Read 1434 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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« Last Edit: March 12, 2024, 02:25:43 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2024, 02:29:14 AM »
What about some armoured cars?
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2024, 04:11:53 AM »
The Russian BA3, BA6 and BA-10 saw plenty of action. Maybe early US armored car prototypes like the T3, T7 or the M1 armored car?

A more likely vehicle could have been a heavily modified Model T, like the FTB that the Poles used:

« Last Edit: March 12, 2024, 04:13:58 AM by Frank3k »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2024, 07:00:46 AM »

..........
On the ground Matilda IIs, which are contemporary with Pz.Kpfw IVs & only a little later than Pz.Kpfw IIIs, would have suited the Spanish terrain & have been a significant challenge for the Axis tanks operating in Spain, being almost invulnerable to their guns & having a gun capable of destroying them. "Allied" involvement would, also, have given them experience against some early iterations of what became "Blitzkrieg".

So if the Germans and Italians encountered the Matilda II in the Spanish Civil War, there's every chance that they would have enacted the development and equipping of a larger and higher velocity gun for the likes of the Pz.Kpfw III and Pz.Kpfw IV earlier, which would have put the Germans in a far better position to combat both the French B1 bis, Matilda II, to say nothing of the Soviet T-34 during the prevailing Second World War.
I'm guessing it would work both ways, with the British hopefully also learning the shortfalls of their Matilda II's puny QF 2pdr (40mm) gun - especially it's dismal lack of a HE round. Perhaps, spurring on a more urgent development and fitting of the QF 3pdr (47mm) gun or even better and more practical, a 6-pdr (57 mm) high-velocity gun!

MAD


It was Wehrmacht doctrine to use the 8.8cm (88mm) in the AT role well before 1939, & it was a very effective Matilda II killer. It was just a matter of them not being in the right place at the right time.

In France; it was because they were mostly left behind in the name of speed. In Africa; good recce work & good luck meant the Matildas rarely ran into them (but, when they did, it wasn't pretty).

Thanks for your feedback Old Wimbat.
I'm very aware of the improvised adoption of the 8.8cm Flak gun as an anti-tank weapon, but it was an improvisation through necessity vs design. Although irrufutably effective, the improvised employment of the 8.8cm Flak was also ungainly unquestionably ungainly due to it's anti-aircraft design/layout. Hence why I was alluding to a by-design vs improvisation.

MAD

I don't know where people get the idea using the 8.8cm was "improvised" (generally, by Rommell's troops during the desert campaign}.

The Germans trained their 8.8cm gunners & supplied them with AT ammunition from at least the early mid-1930's & they were formed in self-supporting AT formations just behind the front lines.

It was doctrine, therefore far from improvised.


The British could have done exactly the same thing with their 3.7" AA guns (93.98mm, so say 94mm) just as easily & more effectively (bigger gun, faster projectile) if they'd had the imagination.
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2024, 01:46:29 PM »
Quote
I don't know where people get the idea using the 8.8cm was "improvised" (generally, by Rommell's troops during the desert campaign}.

The Germans trained their 8.8cm gunners & supplied them with AT ammunition from at least the early mid-1930's & they were formed in self-supporting AT formations just behind the front lines.

It was doctrine, therefore far from improvised.

Well there you go.
And yes, I dare say, I did have this notion due to what I'd read by German troops employment of the 8.8cm Flak during the French Campaign, as opposed to "the desert campaign".

MAD

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2024, 02:11:39 AM »
The Russian BA3, BA6 and BA-10 saw plenty of action. Maybe early US armored car prototypes like the T3, T7 or the M1 armored car?

A more likely vehicle could have been a heavily modified Model T, like the FTB that the Poles used:



I was thinking more of some of the British ones that were used in WW! or in the interwar years such as:

Rolls-Royce Armoured Car:



Lanchester 6×4 armoured car:



Lanchester armoured car:



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Offline apophenia

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Re: The Spanish Civil War, rethought
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2024, 03:54:32 AM »
Just checking - apparently Renault FTs would have been available (France even used some in WWII)...

The Renault is mentioned on wiki's tank list page. But, to me, wiki didn't make completely clear that such tanks were already in Spanish service - and had seen previous action in Morocco. As far as I can tell, this Spanish 'variant' differed only in being armed with Hotchiss guns chambered for the Ejército's standard 7mm Mauser round.

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tanks_in_the_Spanish_Civil_War

And on the subject of Renaults for España ...

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg216654#msg216654
« Last Edit: March 13, 2024, 04:02:28 AM by apophenia »
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