Apophenia's Offerings

[Old Wombat]

 

[apophenia]

Thanks Guy.

hmmm...
Would the Ukrainian pilots want a full bubble canopy?

Probably. Alas, all that was available to them for the Urahan update were rear canopies from scrapped Aero L-29 Delfin found in the Kyiv boneyard.

BTW: Engine installation (1,376 shp PT6A-65R) and sensor pack (Wescam MX-15 E/O turret) were inspired by the Iomax Archangel.

[GTX_Admin]

 

[apophenia]

As a pedestrian, I worry that modern American pickup trucks just aren't big enough ...

[ChernayaAkula]

Waiting for the doubledecker-cab, London bus-style. 

The Thompson Assault Rifle is pretty neat. 

[upnorth]

Following another suggestion from Sport25ing ...

Shtormova tin' - The Ukrainian Storm Shadow in Action

An ex-RAF Panavia Tornado GR.4 in Ukrainian markings. This Tornado carries the individual aircraft number 'Bilyy 57', Ukrainian gold/blue roundel on its wings, and the Trizub on its tail. Ukrainian colours also surmount the tailplane. On those colour bands is marked VYSOKOPILLYA - a name commemorating a small Ukrainian village in the Kherson region destroyed by Russian occupiers. [1]

The ex-RAF Tornados had been brought out of retirement storage specifically to carry the Storm Shadow cruise missiles donated to Ukraine. 'Bilyy 57' was the first PSU Tornado to launch Storm Shadows 'in anger'. Near dawn on 23 July 2023, three Ukrainian Tornados each launched two 'Shtormova tin'' missiles against targets in Crimea - including  Sevastopol Naval Base on the west coast and Gvardeyskoye Air Base in central Crimea. [2]

_______________________________

[1] Vysokopillya was occupied by Putin's troops on 13 March 2022. By the time that the Ukrainians liberated the village in early September, Vysokopillya lay in total ruins.

[2] Simultaneously, PSU ADM-160 MALD decoy missiles were also launched at 'targets' near Sevastopol - the Khersones tactical UAV base and Saky Air Base.

I like that!

However, as much as I love the Tornado and the idea of pulling the RAF ones out of mothballs, I'd be concerned about the two man crew aspect. Would Ukraine spare the personnel for squadrons of two seat fast jets.

My idea would be to send surplus two seat Typhoons with the rear cockpits stripped out for an extra fuel cell or some extra ECM gear or some such.

One person can operate it without issue and it is Storm Shadow capable.

The view outward would be some better than the Tornado as well.

[apophenia]

Nice! Yes, by all means, send Typhoons! Especially if there is a surplus of two-seaters 

BTW, I see that the Su-24MRs have been fitted with modified Tornado pylons (or parts thereof) to carry their Storm Shadows. So, bits of the old RAF Tornados did make it to Ukraine 

[upnorth]

Nice! Yes, by all means, send Typhoons! Especially if there is a surplus of two-seaters 

BTW, I see that the Su-24MRs have been fitted with modified Tornado pylons (or parts thereof) to carry their Storm Shadows. So, bits of the old RAF Tornados did make it to Ukraine 

I think I read somewhere that simulators are so good these days that the RAF felt that the need for two seat versions of fast jets was much reduced and that the training unit for Typhoons could be made up of mostly single seat machines. As a result, they retired a number of two seat Typhoons starting in 2018 or so. If those two seat Typhoons were still intact and in storage, they'd have relatively few hours on them.

However, I'm not sure what the RAF might have actually done with them in the real world.

As you point out, the Ukrainians already have the Su-24. It's a contemporary of the Tornado, so I'm not sure the Ukrainians would benefit that much from having another aircraft of the same class if they could have something more modern. Also, the Tornado would just give them one more VG type to pour maintenance hours into.

I have a feeling that a modern fixed wing type would be somewhat less maintenance intensive and have better mission readiness than another aging VG type.

[apophenia]

I had never really investigated the French AMX-30 before. A little research revealed just what un vrai chien de char the AMX-30 really was! The lightest of armour of any MBT; wholly unreliable drivetrain; non-standard main gun; ... 

The only positives I could find were a relatively light weight - 500 kg lighter than the Leo 1 (mostly by sacrificing armour protection) - and a correspondingly low ground pressure. Can anyone think of any other pluses for this mutt of an MBT?

Having jumped the gun of processing an AMX-30 image, I was stuck trying to imagine improvements to this vehicle. Up-armour? Nope, already underpowered for the 750 hp available power (when working). Re-engining? Why waste a EuroPowerPack (or similar) on an AMX when you could refurb more plentiful Leopard 1s instead?

So, I defaulted to a pair of my old hobby horses - direct fire-support vehicles and 'diesel armour'. My AMX-30/CR60 (char de reconnaissance) is a rebuild based on the AMX-30B2 with a Renault-Mack E9 V8 - producing the same 750 hp as the dreadful original HS 110 V12 but much more reliable. The CN 105 F1 gun is replaced by a 60 mm CN60-70 B1 SMHV - this canon de soutien moyen à haute vélocité being an HVMS 60/70 gun licensed from OTO-Melara.

After the BRENUS ERA system was rejected (due to its adding 1.7 metric tons of weight), the Swedish solution of adding jerrican 'diesel armour' was adopted. When full, this 'diesel armour' added about 500 kg to loaded weight (~435 kg of that being fuel). However, that was balanced by the armament change (which saved 1,470 kg in gun weight - although the AMX-30/CR60 generally carried a heavier ammunition load than an AMX-30B2.) Rubber dust skirts were applied beneath the 'diesel armour'. Turret protection was also improved with add-on armour applied to the frontal arc.

The idea here is that 60 mm APDSFS-T would be ideal for plinking IFVs while HE-T fragmentation would serve in the anti-infantry role. Probably 'lipstick on a pig' but any thoughts?

__________________________

BTW: This image is based on a photo of a preserved AMX-30 marked as 'CDT BOSSUT' - Commandant Bossut having been killed in his Schneider tank during the assault on Juvincourt on 16 April 1917. I've named my AMX-30/CR60 'MdL DUIF' - the Maréchal des Logis having been killed just prior to Bossut.

[Old Wombat]

I have an AMX-30B2 in the stash that I bought with the idea of making it a RAM's recce tank but I hadn't (& still haven't) done any research on the vehicle - I (Like, in, possibly, typical French fashion, the Armée de Terre?) just though it looked good.

Know of any good late-70's/early-80's 800+hp diesel/transmission systems that would work if the RAM's bought AMX-30 shells & filled them with their own goodies?

Would the British L7 105mm gun fit?

 

[Gingie]

I think a "Recce in force" role is a decent option for a mechanized Bde recce sqn. Provides combat overwatch for a two vehicle recce det, ie when paired up with a smaller (size / gun) AFV with a dedicated surveillance suite. Reminds me a bit of the Danish upgrades to the M-41-DK that saw it soldiering through almost to the new millenium.

[apophenia]

... Know of any good late-70's/early-80's 800+hp diesel/transmission systems that would work if the RAM's bought AMX-30 shells & filled them with their own goodies?

Would the British L7 105mm gun fit?

Guy: For a RAM AMX-30, you could follow the real-world Spanish AMX-30E modernisation programme. For the top-end mod, Santa Bárbara dumped the French HS-110/5SD-200D combo entirely in favour of a German MTU 833 Ka 501 (850 hp) driving a ZF LSG 3000.

I'm not sure whether an L7 would fit but, if it did, you're adding on another 350 kg for little real benefit. AIUI, the downside of the CN 105 F1 was that slow twist meant it couldn't fire APDS. But, by the period you're talking about, those rounds were being eclipsed by APFSDS anyway. There, the modèle F1 was no slouch - firing APFDS-T rounds at 1,525 m/s (vs. 1,475 m/s for the L7). I assume that difference is due to the F1's L/56 barrel (vs. L/52 for the L7's).

That said, I also note that the French later adopted a Rheinmetall L7 - the Rh 105-20 - for its wheeled AMX-10RC. So, maybe more is going on behind the scenes there?

[apophenia]

I think a "Recce in force" role is a decent option for a mechanized Bde recce sqn. Provides combat overwatch for a two vehicle recce det, ie when paired up with a smaller (size / gun) AFV with a dedicated surveillance suite. Reminds me a bit of the Danish upgrades to the M-41-DK that saw it soldiering through almost to the new millenium.

Thanks Graeme ... I'd forgotten about the M41 DK-1! Yeah, a good example of 'recycling' to get a recce-in-force vehicle. And, as you say, they saw 38 years of useful service. Not bad for armour originally received free of charge. Canny folk, those Danes 

Plus, with those new tracks skirts and draped in camo net, you get a bonus in the M41 DK-1 looking like a cute, cartoon/mini version of the Leopard 1A5-DK 

[apophenia]

Another simple retouch with a long-winded backstory. This time, Ukraine's Sukhoi Su-24MEV Voron (Raven) ECM Jamming Platform.

'Electric Fencer'

In June 2023, Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev met with Ukraine's Volodymyr Zelenskyy in Moldova. One result was a pledge to open a second Azerbaijan Honorary Consulate in Ukraine - this time in nearby Odesa. Before the new honorary consulate could even be opened, the Hretska Street premises were damaged in the same Russian missile attack which ravaged the Spaso-Preobrazhensky cathedral World Heritage site. The Honorary Consul of Azerbaijan in Odesa, Nihad Isayev, was lightly wounded in the explosion.

The Baku government had been doing all it could to tread a line of neutrality in the Russian-Ukraine conflict. Now President Aliyev requested more direct support for Ukraine - albeit, still to be done quietly to avoid the ire of Moscow. The plan arrived at was to deliver 11 x retired Azerbaijani Air & Air Defence Force (AHHQ) Su-24M airframes through Turkey to Ukraine. Seven of these partly-disassembled airframes would be delivered by rail directly to Lviv. These would act as a source of spares for Ukrainian Su-24, Su-24M, and Su-24MR aircraft. The remaining four airframes - those in the best condition - were sent to Bulgaria for restoration.

Ukrainian-Bulgarian cooperation had begun in earnest when it was arranged for VVS MiG-29 engines to be refurbished at the Lutskyi Remontnyi Zavod Motor DP (north-east of Lviv) instead of in Russia. Shortly before, Russia had begun cancelling the certifications of long-standing aircraft repair facilities in Bulgaria. As a result, it was agreed that Azerbaijani Su-24M restoration work would be performed by the now-underworked Avionams AD at Plovdiv. This would be no simple job since these AHHQ aircraft had been in open storage since at least December of 2021. However, the work was about to become even more complex.

A separate arrangement had been made between Kyiv and Washington. While Avionams restored the basic airframes and engines of the Su-24s, modifications were to be designed by a joint team based in Sofia. This team was a joint effort by personnel from Ukraine's Nikolaev Aircraft Repair Plant and the US aerospace giant, Lockheed Martin. LM was to provide equipment and systems recovered from mothballed General Dynamics–Grumman EF-111A ECM aircraft. NARP were responsible for physically integrating the antennae and equipment on the Su-24M airframe.

Work was complete by the early Autumn of 2023 with the 'Electric Fencers' sporting distinctive fin-tip 'pyrohy' pods for AN/ALQ-99E jamming system receivers. Transmitters were placed in a 4.9 m long ventral 'kanoe' radome. The four rebuilt Su-24MEV (for Su-24M Elektronna viyna) electronic warfare aircraft entered UA service in October 2023. As such, the 'Em-Ve' were in time to play an airborne jamming role in Ukraine's decisive November 2023 strikes against the Russian Black Sea Fleet ...

[GTX_Admin]

I had never really investigated the French AMX-30 before. A little research revealed just what un vrai chien de char the AMX-30 really was! The lightest of armour of any MBT; wholly unreliable drivetrain; non-standard main gun; ... 

The only positives I could find were a relatively light weight - 500 kg lighter than the Leo 1 (mostly by sacrificing armour protection) - and a correspondingly low ground pressure. Can anyone think of any other pluses for this mutt of an MBT?

Having jumped the gun of processing an AMX-30 image, I was stuck trying to imagine improvements to this vehicle. Up-armour? Nope, already underpowered for the 750 hp available power (when working). Re-engining? Why waste a EuroPowerPack (or similar) on an AMX when you could refurb more plentiful Leopard 1s instead?

It could have been interesting if the 142-millimeter gun able to fire the supersonic ACRA (Anti-Char Rapide Autopropulsé)[85] anti-tank guided missile, as well as high explosive rounds was adopted into service:

[GTX_Admin]

Guy: For a RAM AMX-30, you could follow the real-world Spanish AMX-30E modernisation programme. For the top-end mod, Santa Bárbara dumped the French HS-110/5SD-200D combo entirely in favour of a German MTU 833 Ka 501 (850 hp) driving a ZF LSG 3000.

This sounds somewhat similar to the late 1980s Super AMX-30 modernization package for AMX-30B. The upgrades to the power packs were new MTU MB833 Ka501 diesel engine with 850 hp, ZF LSG-3000 automatic transmission, new engine cooling system, and increased fuel capacity up to 1,028 liters. The upgrades on mobility also included upgraded torsion bars, hydraulic shock absorbers, new slightly larger road wheels, and Diehl Type 234 tracks. The fire control systems were upgraded with MOLF-30 modular laser FCS by Krupp Atlas Elektronik, gyro-stabilized gun and gunner's day/night sight, laser rangefinder, and fully electric turret drive. Optional additional armour on the turret also available per buyer request. A single prototype was made and were publicly unveiled and tested in Saudi Arabia. The upgrade failed to find a buyer.

'There was also the AMX-32 development.

[GTX_Admin]

More AMX-30 inspiration (such as Israeli AMX-30s...hint, hint) here

[apophenia]

Guy: For a RAM AMX-30, you could follow the real-world Spanish AMX-30E modernisation programme. For the top-end mod, Santa Bárbara dumped the French HS-110/5SD-200D combo entirely in favour of a German MTU 833 Ka 501 (850 hp) driving a ZF LSG 3000.

This sounds somewhat similar to the late 1980s Super AMX-30 modernization package for AMX-30B. The upgrades to the power packs were new MTU MB833 Ka501 diesel engine with 850 hp, ZF LSG-3000 automatic transmission, new engine cooling system, and increased fuel capacity up to 1,028 liters. The upgrades on mobility also included upgraded torsion bars, hydraulic shock absorbers, new slightly larger road wheels, and Diehl Type 234 tracks. The fire control systems were upgraded with MOLF-30 modular laser FCS by Krupp Atlas Elektronik, gyro-stabilized gun and gunner's day/night sight, laser rangefinder, and fully electric turret drive. Optional additional armour on the turret also available per buyer request. A single prototype was made and were publicly unveiled and tested in Saudi Arabia. The upgrade failed to find a buyer.

'There was also the AMX-32 development.

Yes, Santa Bárbara's premium upgrade was very much like the Super AMX-30. But mention of the AMX-32 has the cogs a-turnin'. Hmmm ...

[apophenia]

Scenario: On 30 Sept 2022, Norway's two Dassault Falcon 20ECMs - or 'DA-20 Jet Falcons' as they were known in Norway - were finally stood down after almost 50 years of service. I don't know what has become of ex-RNoAF 041 ('Hugin') and 053 ('Munin') but, being as old as they are, I'm guessing that they sit in storage. [1] But is there not still useful work that Odin's companions could be performing?

The Falcon 20ECMs' old unit - 717 Skvadron (Forsvarets EK-Støttesenter) - is not due to be disbanded until 2024. So, were Norway to donate 'Hugin' and 'Munin' to Ukraine, a nucleus for training on these electronic warfare platforms still exists at Rygge (south of Oslo).

Ukrainian Air Force Dassault Sokil 20 ECM

My image of a UA Falcon 20 - or Sokil in Ukrainian - shows its Norwegian scheme overpainted with Ukrainian roundels and other markings. No other changes have been made. The aircraft has been given the new name 'Dast'bi' for alliteration with 'Dassault'. The word translates as something like '[God] will provide' by implies denial by all others. In other words, the 'Rashists' must appeal to their deity to give back what Ukrainian ECM will deny them. Associated with 'Dast'bi' is an Othodox icon of the Arkhanhel Mykhail.

"Today we pray: O archangel Michael and all the powers of heaven, fight for Ukraine! Cast down that devil who is attacking us and killing us, bringing devastation and death!"

________________________________________________

[1] It would seem unlikely that heavily-modified, 50-year-old bizjets would have much resale value on the civilian market. The aircraft may still have utility as ECM platforms - Norway now employing the P-8A for that role - but finding acceptable buyers would be another matter.

[upnorth]

The Ukrainian Falcon looks great.

The Norwegians brought one to a show here in the Czech Republic a few years ago.

The crew told me the Falcons were pretty much clocked out on frame hours. As such, I imagine they are only fit for museum purposes now.

[apophenia]

... The crew told me the Falcons were pretty much clocked out on frame hours. As such, I imagine they are only fit for museum purposes now.

Doubtless that is true 'north. If some other nation wants to donate something 'younger' for ECM, that'd be great.

That said, I'd lean toward the idea that if the Falcon 20ECMs are flyable, they are usable. Not ideal perhaps but with a capability currently lacking in UA's arsenal.

[upnorth]

... The crew told me the Falcons were pretty much clocked out on frame hours. As such, I imagine they are only fit for museum purposes now.

Doubtless that is true 'north. If some other nation wants to donate something 'younger' for ECM, that'd be great.

That said, I'd lean toward the idea that if the Falcon 20ECMs are flyable, they are usable. Not ideal perhaps but with a capability currently lacking in UA's arsenal.

Sounds like a job for maybe some King Airs with the right mods. I know there are EW modified King Air variants out there.

Maybe give them some suitable King Airs to hold the line while they await delivery of their promised Falcon 8X based Archange EW machines in the late 2020s. ;-)

[GTX_Admin]

Some RC-12s perhaps?

[apophenia]

I guess the big question here is: Are slow-flying ECM platforms like the Guardrail viable in contested airspace?

If not, the logical follow-on question would be: Are bizjet-based ECM platforms any more viable in contested airspace?

[perttime]

Are airliner-based ECM platforms viable in contested airspace?