Rafale

[taiidantomcat]

D'oh!  forgot about that one (even got a kit of it in the stash) and of course there's the CC-150 Polaris.  But to be fair, they're not really 'war' planes are they ---

I love the look of the Polaris, You Canadians have great taste in schemes --same with that Falcon 

[kitnut617]

I love the look of the Polaris, You Canadians have great taste in schemes --same with that Falcon 

specially this one  (sorry for the thread drift)

[Silver Fox]

The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible  am *slightly* biased.

On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.


Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?

[taiidantomcat]

The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible  am *slightly* biased.

On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.


Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?

according to wiki you are correct, but it also looks like they are including other variants like the V and cheetah? This could get messy  When is a mirage not a mirage?

F-15s are 4 digits (and still in production)
F-18s are 4 digits (super hornet now in production with nearly 600)
F-16s are 4 digits (and still in production)

What was it that one French guy said about "divide and conquer" ??

[mrvr6]

The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible  am *slightly* biased.

On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.


Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?

how many hunters were sold?

[taiidantomcat]

The Falcon looked better in this scheme from the 80's. Of course, it is possible  am *slightly* biased.

On topic though, the Falcon came closest to being a warplane. The three EW birds were tasked with VIP transport in time of war due to their equipment fit and greater survivability.


Trying to remember any highly successful Euro birds in the post-war era. I can't think of any that would make 4 digits, maybe the Mirage III?

how many hunters were sold?

nearly 2,000

[GTX_Admin]

Perhaps this (translated) comment from Dassault CEO Charles Edelstenne from 2012 sheds some light on Rafale's issues:

"...The market for the Rafale, it is countries that do not want or can not buy or American countries who want to have a second source while buying American...”

If that is truly what they are thinking then they already have a problem in that many of these countries also will struggle to afford the Rafale.

Now couple that with price issues (which have long been rumoured in the industry, and came out recently in India); coupled with a history of submitting low initial prices which then grow later on; questionable aftermarket sustainment support and also the delays in getting to full capability it is no wonder there has been less than stellar success with exports.  The French sales team have also lost some deals which were long rumoured to be theirs "to lose" (e.g. UAE, Brazil, Mororoco) which makes me really wonder about their abilities.

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program?  Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...

[GTX_Admin]

BTW, I have seen a price of €152M per acft reported for the Rafale.  Certainly not cheap!

And before anyone asks "than why has it won in India" let me highlight two points:

• There is thrill no contract signed...despite some 2.5yrs now since its down select; and
• I would question just how much the offsets aspect influenced the decision here.  Remember that Dassault were desperate for a win...

[GTX_Admin]

I have long dreamed of Taiwan being the export launch customer for Rafale

I think you will find the Mirage 2000 experience diminished the prospects.

• The Taiwanese Mirage2000s have reportedly struggled to achieve satisfactory operational availability due to the high cost of parts and components and relevant technical maintenance problems;
• France was not keen to upset mainland China and thus risk getting shut out of a potentially far more lucrative market.

[Rickshaw]

I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program?  Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...

Dassault's pride (or arrogance) prevented that, Greg.  Marcel believed only his planes should equip the French Air Force.   I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours?   

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program?  Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...

Dassault's pride (or arrogance) prevented that, Greg.  Marcel believed only his planes should equip the French Air Force.   I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours?   

That sounds like an excellent idea for someone willing to expend the time and resources on such a project. 

While you are at it may as well build an F-18E or F-18F in Aeronavale markings to add more salt to those open wounds :)

[taiidantomcat]

I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program?  Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...

I think it certainly would have been close if it didn't meet or exceed it. With Aircraft sales "the rich get richer" The more you sell, the lower the cost, the better the sustainment and logistics -- upgrades become more palatable as well. The less you sell the more expensive to buy the more rare and expensive they are to maintain.

Had they stuck with together you are looking at over 800, maybe more deals in the middle east, south america, africa. at the very least you turn it into "US vs Europe" in western contests, it would actually tilt the scales. instead there is a lot of duplication of effort and one winning somewhere doesn't help much.

What if land is fun  Maybe a joint euro Fighter from the 1980s gen 4.5? Carrier version and land based version? maybe even include a "lightweight version" with a single (but same) engine, similiar cockpit, radar avionics, so you offer the "lite" version (gripen like) to those who can't afford the regular land version?

One of the reasons Norway did not opt for the Gripen NG was the idea that Saab may be out of the airplane business in 15-20 years, thus making them the owner of some very expensive collectors items, despite the advantages the NG may have offered.

Honestly Europe missed their shot. The idea of the EU coming together to create an F-35 competitor is incomprehensible to me at least. Its about getting as many eurocanards offloaded until the end now. unless they try a 5.5 gen fighter in the future, but there would have to be a serious perception of a need for such an airplane and the willingness to come together, pool resources, and stay together. and many nations will have already spent billions on F-35s that are expected to last for decades.

  I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours?   

Now that would be funny 

[GTX_Admin]

Some profiles I found here

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours?   

I love this idea! :)

[Silver Fox]

Getting around US arms and technology restrictions was the selling point Dassault was counting on. Given the reliability issues suffered by many French designed systems it was a bad call. Essentially they drew attention to one of their worst weaknesses in order to differentiate them from the rest.

Similar to the Soviets trying to market the Lada a couple of decades ago by telling you it will get great has mileage if it starts. :)

[Volkodav]

What the Rafale really needed was to be available a decade earlier when the F-35 project hadn't started up yet, that way it would have been competing against F/A-18C/D and earlier blocks of the F-16C/D. 

[GTX_Admin]

What the Rafale really needed was to be available a decade earlier when the F-35 project hadn't started up yet, that way it would have been competing against F/A-18C/D and earlier blocks of the F-16C/D.

Unfortunately for Rafale its development was protracted (~14.5yrs from first demonstrator flight to initial service deliveries) - here is a comparison with the F-35 (which has only had ~10.75yrs for same interval despite greater complexity):

Technology Demonstrator First Flight:	4 July 1986 (Rafale-A)	24 October 2000 (X-35)
Proper Prototype First Flight:	19 May 1991 (Rafale-C)	15 December 2006 (F-35A)
First Delivery to Service:	December 2000 (Rafale-M to Aéronavale)	July 2011 (F-35A)
IOC Declared:	June 2004 (Rafale-M with Aéronavale - 6 acft only)	Planned: 2015 (F-35B with USMC), 2016 (F-35A with USAF)
Number Produced To Date:	126 (Rafale C, B and M)	100+ (there are around 114 in production at the moment across F-35A, B and C

[dy031101]

I think you will find the Mirage 2000 experience diminished the prospects.

Logistics is always a problem with anything military in Taiwan because spares and ordnances are WAY less understandable than whole vehicles to Taiwanese politicians.  F-16 has that problem, too, but at least ROCAF is relatively familiar with American systems and American trainings.

And then we are back to the old problem of new administration demolishing old channel and trying to build anew...... with every new administration comes the same mess being repeated.

France is seen by the PRC as a gateway to the rest of the Europe.  At this point France only has a real business chance with the PRC when it is in a consortium with other Europe countries, and otherwise PRC already considers France to have outlived that purpose.

[Weaver]

I wonder if things would have been more successful if France hadn't broken away from what went to become the Eurofighter program?  Perhaps then you would have seen a European fighter that cracked the 1000 acft mark...

Dassault's pride (or arrogance) prevented that, Greg.  Marcel believed only his planes should equip the French Air Force.   I wonder, has anybody done a Eurofighter in French colours?   

Dassault didn't really want the Eurofighter to start in the early 1980s (when early discussions were taking place) because their commerical and military cycles were out of step with the other partners. Britain, Germany and Italy didn't have an agile air-to-air fighter to sell and urgently needed one for their air forces, but France had the Mirage 2000, and they didn't want to make it obsolete before they'd sold all they could by developing it's replacement too soon.

Dassault and the French government therefore did what they'd done several times before: they joined the party in order to spoil it, demanding that Aeronavale weight limits had to take priority over all other requirements and Dassault should get 50% of the contract by value due to their experience with deltas (never mind the fact that they'd never built a canard delta  ). In the 1950s and 1960s that had worked several times, but it had left a bad taste in others' mouths (particularly Britain's) and by the 1980s, Britain, Germany and Italy were already successfully building the Tornado together, so they had the experience and confidence to tell the French to get stuffed.

Dassault went off in a huff and developed the Rafale separately, but with only the French budget to pay for development and the French national requirement as guaranteed sales, it's always struggled. ironically if the Aeronavale had accepted the higher weight of the Eurofighter, they'd have had to make the Charles de Gaulle bigger, which would then have enabled it to operated E-2Cs as designed, instead of having to have an embarrassing flight deck stretch after it had been built.

[Rickshaw]

Never built a canard delta?  What about the 4000?

Anyway, you could argue all Dassault's delta wing products were canards. 

[jcf]

Brian, that was punishing. 

[Rickshaw]

Thank you, Jon, that is a high compliment from you.   

[GTX_Admin]

Taking the combined Rafale/Typhoon common Eurofighter theme further, what about Rafales in the real world Typhoon schemes?

[Old Wombat]

Taking the combined Rafale/Typhoon common Eurofighter theme further, what about Rafales in the real world Typhoon schemes?

I'm thinking of melding the two into a single aircraft of the theory of "what if France & Dassault had played nice on the Eurofighter concept & had an input into its design".

If I do, it'll be in my usual kitbash scale of 1/72nd (because I can't afford that level of plastic surgery in 1/48th).

Still thinking about how to meld the two & keep their best aspects in the one fuselage.