Author Topic: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)  (Read 24275 times)

Offline kitnut617

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Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« on: November 16, 2014, 01:05:21 AM »
This will be a resumption of a project I had started some time ago, but got put on the shelf as other projects side-tracked me.

I've had a fascination with the Avro Atlantic ever since I found out that Avro had proposed an airliner/transport/tanker version of the Vulcan bomber.  While researching it I came across a web page that was associated with the Neville Shute Society that had some information on the Atlantic.  Apparently in one of Neville Shute' books called 'In the Wet', there is a description of an airliner which matches the Atlantic to a tee, so I wrote to the society asking if they had any more information.  I got a reply from a fellow who's name was Mike Meehan, he told me the Atlantic was a pet project of his because back in the day he worked in the Avro drafting office and had actually worked on drawings that appeared in the Avro Atlantic brochure to the Air Ministry (or what ever the department was called back then). So 99% of my information I have gather on the Atlantic came from Mike.  Unfortunately, Mike has since died but before he did he told me he was then heavily involved with the Neville Shute Society.

In the original books of 'In the Wet', there appeared a sketch of the airliner in question only it's called a De Havilland Ceres in the story, below is a copy of the sketch which Mike had sent to me but it can be found on the internet.  My original story for my Atlantic was it was built in Canada and went into RCAF service instead of the 707 and so was designated the CC-137 Husky, but now the problem arose on how to link this to the book and this GB.

So I really needed to know more about the book and did a google search to find a review, and actually found quite a comprehensive one.  To my amazement, I found there's a Canadian (and Australian) connection in the book because the story unwinds around a character who was a test pilot flying advanced airliners produced by these two countries.  So I have an 'in' so to speak.  I have since bought a copy of the book and now reading it more thoroughly so I can work on my backstory.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 01:07:15 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2014, 01:14:03 AM »
Here's a photo I took today of where I am with my Atlantic, it has been like that since my last post I made here in another thread.  I won't bother re-hashing how I got to this point in this thread, so here's the link to the original thread.

http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=794.msg8216#msg8216

As the build continues here, I'll post some other previous 'in-progress' pics

« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 01:25:49 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2014, 01:17:15 AM »
This is a pic of some of the parts assembled in a jig so I can figure out the wing root connection.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2014, 01:24:01 AM »
And this is a 3-View I got from Mike (top pic), he told me this appeared in the last brochure sent to the Ministry. He said that some books have erroneously stated an earlier configuration was the last (this had engines set mid wing) but Mike said this was in-correct and that the large scale model (1/24 I think) which is on display in the Woodford Museum was built to the actual last proposal.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2014, 01:28:42 AM »
Excellent - watching this with interest. :)

I know all the Atlantic models show the original pure delta wing of the early Vulcan, but isn't it likely that production aircraft would have ended up with the curved leading-edge phase II wing similar to the Vulcan B.1/B.2s as well? After all, it was introduced to deal with high-speed, high altitude buffet problems which would very probably have affected the Atlantic too.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2014, 01:32:39 AM »
Yes Harold, that was one of the things I discussed with Mike Meehan, he said in all probability an in-service Atlantic would have had at least the kinked leading edge of the Vulcan B.1a.  So that is what I have started to do with one wing (not glued in yet though) using a Flightpath conversion set.  He also said it would more than likely got a fin with more area.

Sort of like this below
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 01:34:59 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2014, 01:37:54 AM »
In this pic you can see what's involved with changing the leading edge, the shaded area on the starboard wing shows what has to be cut out.

The wing span of the Vulcan B.1/B.1a was less than the B.2, but scaling the 3-View of the Atlantic, the wing span is the same as the B.2.  I've put this down to the difference in fuselage diameters, 9'-3" for the Vulcan, 12'-6" for the Atlantic.  I've left the wing tips pointed at the moment, but once the wings are attached to the new fuselage, I'll trim them down to what it's supposed to be.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 01:41:51 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2014, 02:32:00 AM »
'In the Wet' was published in 1953, but the story is set in the then future -- 1983.  This works out quite well because in my original backstory I was working on, the RCAF Atlantic was in service between 1968 and 2002.  The trick now is to work it in with the story in the book.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2014, 02:43:57 AM »
Ah, I see what you mean about the wing. I didn't even know there was a B.1 conversion.... ::)
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2014, 02:49:55 AM »
I'm not sure there is a B.1 conversion, the slightly kinked leading edge conversion is to do a B.1a. I seem to remember reading that all the B.1's went through an update program and all had this revised wing leading edge installed.  The wing tip end of the resin leading edge is actually where the wing tip of the B.1a is, but it does have a wing tip cap for it (it's white metal in the kit conversion). The instructions that come with the conversion says you have to sand down the mating surfaces of the top & bottom wing halves where the engine intakes are to make the air intakes smaller in depth, something the B.1's had because of the lesser engine power. I'm leaving the intakes as they are on this build, because I'm saying it had more powerful engines.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 02:55:38 AM by kitnut617 »

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2014, 03:25:06 AM »
Watching this one closely.

BTW, Neville Shute's aircraft descriptions etc are not surprising given he had a quite distinguished career in the aeronautical industry.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 03:29:02 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2014, 03:32:12 AM »
Thanks Greg,

I had thought I had more of the previous build progress on this forum, but it seems I haven't.

But you can see a good bit of it here:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,27077.0/highlight,avro+atlantic.html

Or here:

http://airfixtributeforum.myfastforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=26536&hilit=Avro+Atlantic

But a brief run-down on what I'm using here.

Started with the old 1/72 Airfix Vulcan for most of the parts except the fuselage. I then needed a nice round fuselage section and found the Monogram 1/72 B-36 works out very well. For the forward end I used a Combat Models 1/72 737-100 fuselage (which is modified so the profiles are more streamlined and round) but for the rear end I had to scratch-build the whole thing. I used balsa wood building techniques to do this and it's not quite finished yet, still got to glue down a lot of the 'planks' that form the curved sides to the tail tip.

I've decided to keep the B-36 radome under the fuselage, I'll explain that away later ----  ;)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 03:54:38 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2014, 07:07:49 AM »
As I understand it, all the B.1s delivered to the RAF had the kinked wing from the start: the only ones with straight wings were a few very early ones retained for testing. The distinction between a B.1 and a B.1a isn't the wing, it's that the latter is a B.1 refitted with as much B.2 equipment (ECM, refuelling probe etc..) as was considered cost-effective.

My obsession with aircraft very probably has something to so with the framed photograph of one of the straight wing prototypes that hung on my bedroom wall from a very early age. Probably still got it somewhere....
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2014, 03:00:16 AM »
Hmm! well that would make more sense Harold ---

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2014, 10:57:26 PM »
Got to the chapter where a description of the Ceres was described, just said it was a shiny winged delta wing with buried engines (air intakes in the leading edge) and a long pointy fuselage which was painted white on top ---- if you didn't know what an Atlantic was, not much there to go by really.

BTW, this book 'In the Wet'  ----------  weird, very weird ---    :-\

Found out what the Canadian link is, apparently the Canadian and Australian Governments bought and took charge of one Ceres each and operated them in 'The Queen's Flight' as the UK Government deemed just about everything as a 'waste of public money'.

The book was published in 1953 which was a year before I was born, I'm wondering what events were going on about then for Neville Shute to write such a book.  I wonder what people thought of it because some of his ideas are really, really weird ----

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2014, 10:48:16 PM »
OK, finished the book, on to reviving the build --

One of the things that led to the project being shelved the first time was I wanted to do some castings of various things, one being the cockpit. But I hadn't done very much casting at that time and I wasn't sure how to go about it.  But I've done quite a few castings of objects since then so I'm going to give it another go.

I had found that a Welsh Models 737 cockpit would fit into the Combat Models 737 but I didn't want to buy another Welsh Models kit to do it, I had contacted Denzil at Welsh Models to see if he would sell me only the bits  I was after but he told me he wouldn't break up a kit because he would then have a bunch of parts lying around. He did say if he would sell me 'all' the resin parts, or all of the white metal parts, but as the kit only has a vacuformed fuselage I would be buying practically the whole kit anyway.

This is what I'll try to make a mould and casting of --

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2014, 10:50:47 PM »
I will have to work on this before I go much further with the fuselage. I had left the starboard side off for the moment while I got the courage to try a more elaborate casting.

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2014, 06:05:28 AM »
Pretty exciting to see this come together. I really is an interesting design.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2014, 07:12:58 AM »
Good luck with the casting! :)
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2014, 02:52:30 AM »
I had to finish gluing all the 'planks' at the rear end of the fuselage, top pic shows them only attached at one end and then the next pic shows them all glued.  Onto some PSR action ---

I think if I was to do this again, I'd put in twice as many formers. That's so it would hold the shape of the planks better. Bottom pic shows how I had positioned the formers onto a keel which runs top to bottom and side to side. These had been cut to the profile shape I'm hoping comes out successful. You'll notice I've used the Vulcan's tail radome, I'll explain that later ---
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 02:54:10 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2014, 03:07:17 AM »
Top pic here shows the 3-View drawing I'm using, I got this from Mike Meehan.  I had scaled the drawing to get the fuselage length (which is about the same as an 707).  Working out the tapering rear fuselage was a lot of fun, doing development work like that is what I do for my work and I really enjoy it. 

What was interesting about this fuselage end was where the tapering starts, in the top view the tapering starts at the first big former you see in the pic which is closest to the end of the grey fuselage bits.  But in the side view, only the top profile curve starts at the same place, the bottom profile curve however starts where the grey fuselage ends. 

I had put this down to so there was rotation clearance when taking off or landing, but later I discovered it was nothing of the sorts.  This is because the bottom of the engine tail-pipe fairing hang much further down than the bottom of the fuselage, the tail-pipes would be the first thing to hit the ground if the aircraft was over-rotated. The reason for the earlier start of the bottom curve, is because it happens to match the bottom chord profile of the wing  --- more on this later too.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2014, 05:24:30 AM »
Got a question for our Aussie friends,  when was Hawker-De Havilland created?

EDIT: And now I've discovered something really interesting  -- and pertinent to this GB project.  In the book "In the Wet", I couldn't figure out where (or why) De Havilland came into something which is quite obviously an Avro product.  It seems that not only was Hawker-De Havilland company created, but Avro Canada and De Havilland Canada were also merged --- by their parent company -- Hawker Siddeley.  The book is a story about Australia and Canada owning and operating a DH Ceres on the Queen's Flight thereby circumventing the Royals having to go to the UK Government whenever they wanted to go somewhere (you have to read the book to find out why) as the two Commonwealth countries were only too willing to have the Royals visiting there countries on a regular basis, plus of course visiting any of the Commonwealth countries that happen to be on the flight direction the Ceres were going in.

It seems that Avro Canada and De Havilland Canada were merged in 1962, And I just happen to have my Atlantic going operational with the RCAF in 1968, and I've got my decals already made up for it a while ago.  The scheme I'm going with is it's retirement scheme.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 05:52:05 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2014, 06:18:56 AM »
Now that I have the rear fuselage buttoned up, I've turned my attention to the forward end.  First I had to cut what I needed for the starboard side out of the backing sheet (top pic), I then spent the afternoon fitting the starboard side to the model.  I took my time with this as I only have one shot at it. Bottom two pics show how it came out.  It's not glued up yet because now I have to get on with the cockpit interior.

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2014, 07:01:48 AM »
Here's a puzzler, could either of these designs be construed as a Delta, because the description of the aircraft in the book 'In the Wet' could be describing one of these, especially the 1947 design.  I know that a picture (see post #1) appears in an issue of the book, but I'm just wondering now.  While doing some research, I've discovered that Shute's full name was Neville Shute Norway, Neville Shute was his pen name and he did this so it wouldn't interfere with his professional career, which was an aeronautical engineer.  He actually started his career at de Havilland.

And these designs would have been known at the time of his book 'In the Wet' whereas the Atlantic was only made public in 1953.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 07:10:34 AM by kitnut617 »

Offline kitnut617

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Re: Avro Atlantic (or De Havilland Ceres)
« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2014, 07:13:58 AM »
Got a question for our Aussie friends,  when was Hawker-De Havilland created?

Found out, 1960