Coulda been MPAs

[Volkodav]

I was doing some random reading today and came across a reference to the AVRO 776 a predecessor concept, based on the DH Trident, to what became the Nimrod.
Did some more reading and then began to think in terms of what else was out there that woulda coulda shoulda become a MPA in the post war world in addition to or instead of the types that did eventuate in reality.

The first thing that came to mind was an MPA B-29.  This was assuming Australia selected the B-29 for production over the AVRO Lincoln and then proceeded to develop a GR version as they did with the Lincoln. 

Thinking on it further I wondered about a USN version of the B-50 or B-36, then the B-52; a GR/MPA version of the HP Victor, the VC7, VC10.  How about a 727 MPA or a B-1B.

Thoughts?

[finsrin]

Much as I like B-36, figure its out of running cuz of runway, taxiway, hanger size infrastructure issues.  Probably same for B-1B and B-52 plus maintenance cost$.  Though they would good model subjects.  :)

[kitnut617]

A Navy B-52 with Harpoons is a possibility ---

[Weaver]

Remember that an MPA needs a lot of operators and their equipment inside it, and enough room for them to be comfortable (galley/loo/bunk/rest area) and therefore effective on very long missions. That pretty much rules out long-ranged aircraft with small crews and cockpits like the Victor.

When I worked at Woodford, I used to image the Avro RJ as an MPA along the lines of the An-72P:

Slightly bulged nose for a 270 deg Seaspray radar (the standard weather radar is surprisingly big)

Long range tanks in the baggage bay (standard option),

Modified forward baggage bay door with a cannon in a fairing on the outside, ammo on the inside and a FLIR turret on the bottom of a faired-in bulge (hard to explain but I know what I mean... )

Modified rear baggage bay door with sonobuoy launchers in it,

Underwing pylons in line with the outer flap-track fairings that carry a pair of Sea Skuas or torpedoes on each one.

[elmayerle]

727 MPA version with a weapons bay located similarly to that of the P-8.  Long range tanks or sensors in the rest of the under-fuselage compartment(s).  Incorporate the proposed mod to put JT8D-200 series engines in new side nacelles and, with P&W, develop a "cropped-fan' JT8D-200 version for the center position.  If you don't need the length of a 727-200, use the 727-100 fuselage on the strengthened et al. 727-200 wing.  You could probably fit underwing hardpoints, too.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

MPA based on the C-97 or Boeing 377 with the bomb bays arranged fore and aft of the wings (as on the B-29 and B-50).  Plenty of room internally for a full crew and sensors from that era of vacuum tubes and cathode ray tubes.  Surface search radar would be in the same shape radome located between bomb bays (as on the B-29 and B-50).  Nose radame would remain for the weather and navigation radar. 

[Daryl J.]

If the 737 makes a great MPA, could the 757 be even better?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An aside, but still on the subject:  a damaged Monogram B-29 kit was picked up at an IPMS show for just a few bucks because the fuselage was still good.   The plan is to stretch a B-29 into a maritime killer aircraft in service with Norway.   The hope is to use engines off a Hercules but the one kit found had no props and the price was above threshold.




As a kid I thought the 737 would make a great P-3 replacement having no idea that would eventually happen.   Why I went into dentistry instead of aviation is beyond me.....

[kitnut617]

Is that 1/48 Daryl ?  'cause Flightpath do Herc' engine/prop set in 1/72 scale, two types too.

[GTX_Admin]

The first thing that came to mind was an MPA B-29.  This was assuming Australia selected the B-29 for production over the AVRO Lincoln and then proceeded to develop a GR version as they did with the Lincoln. 

I've long thought similar - I would incorporate the engines from the B-50 though.

[GTX_Admin]

May I suggest a look at this topic over on Secret Projects:  Unbuilt ASW/MARPAT versions of airliners?

[upnorth]

I wonder how the Vickers Vanguard might have adapted to the role as MPA for countries with a bit less coastline to watch over.

Contemporaries of the Vanguard, the Lockheed Electra and Illyushin Il-18, adapted well to the long range MPA role. From what I can find, the Vanguard didn't have the range of those two, but might well have had the range to suit countries with less water to look after.


I also wonder how a DC-6 or DC-7 might have adapted to the role. Both had good range; both were also adapted to the fire killer role so I think there would be no question that their airframes would be strong enough for low level flying involved in the MP role.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I wonder how the Vickers Vanguard might have adapted to the role as MPA for countries with a bit less coastline to watch over.

Contemporaries of the Vanguard, the Lockheed Electra and Illyushin Il-18, adapted well to the long range MPA role. From what I can find, the Vanguard didn't have the range of those two, but might well have had the range to suit countries with less water to look after.


I also wonder how a DC-6 or DC-7 might have adapted to the role. Both had good range; both were also adapted to the fire killer role so I think there would be no question that their airframes would be strong enough for low level flying involved in the MP role.

I suppose the Bristol Britannia would be a bit too large for the MPA role but still an aircraft from that era that should not be ignored.  Certainly larger than the Vickers Vanguard but with that comes space for more fuel or payload.  The Canadair CP-107 Argus was based on the Bristol Britannia design.   

[upnorth]

I wonder how the Vickers Vanguard might have adapted to the role as MPA for countries with a bit less coastline to watch over.

Contemporaries of the Vanguard, the Lockheed Electra and Illyushin Il-18, adapted well to the long range MPA role. From what I can find, the Vanguard didn't have the range of those two, but might well have had the range to suit countries with less water to look after.


I also wonder how a DC-6 or DC-7 might have adapted to the role. Both had good range; both were also adapted to the fire killer role so I think there would be no question that their airframes would be strong enough for low level flying involved in the MP role.

I suppose the Bristol Britannia would be a bit too large for the MPA role but still an aircraft from that era that should not be ignored.  Certainly larger than the Vickers Vanguard but with that comes space for more fuel or payload.  The Canadair CP-107 Argus was based on the Bristol Britannia design.

The Britannia was an interesting one considering what went into the transition from Britannia to Argus. Most notable was the switch from turboprops to radial piston engines.

The engine switch, to my understanding, was to get better fuel economy and range at lower altitudes.

It really does make you wonder how the Britannia might have fared in the role with turboprops if someone felt such an engine change was justified.

[kitnut617]

I wonder how the Vickers Vanguard might have adapted to the role as MPA for countries with a bit less coastline to watch over.

Contemporaries of the Vanguard, the Lockheed Electra and Illyushin Il-18, adapted well to the long range MPA role. From what I can find, the Vanguard didn't have the range of those two, but might well have had the range to suit countries with less water to look after.


I also wonder how a DC-6 or DC-7 might have adapted to the role. Both had good range; both were also adapted to the fire killer role so I think there would be no question that their airframes would be strong enough for low level flying involved in the MP role.

I suppose the Bristol Britannia would be a bit too large for the MPA role but still an aircraft from that era that should not be ignored.  Certainly larger than the Vickers Vanguard but with that comes space for more fuel or payload.  The Canadair CP-107 Argus was based on the Bristol Britannia design.

In the book CL-44, Swingtail, it says the Argus was a Britannia, just it had piston engines instead of turbo-props and a different cockpit arrangement.

I've also compared the Vanguard to the Britannia too, I have 1/72 models of both and there's not a lot of difference between them.  Of the three 1/72 scale Vanguards I have, my plan is to build one as a RW Merchantman, one as an AEW and the other as a MPA, these last two would be ex-TCA (Air Canada) aircraft purchase by the government and converted ---  Did you know the the Vanguard was used to haul bombs from the UK to Germany, it could carry more than a B-52 -----

[Volkodav]

Toying with the idea of a botched Australian aviation scheme where the CoA sponsors the establishment of a local Vickers Vanguard line to build aircraft for TAA, ANA and Qantas, as well as export just as jets became viable as well as capturing the publics imaginations.  This leads to the production of *** Australian government guaranteed spec Vanguards that no one wanted that ended up being foisted upon the defence forces and various government agencies in any role that could be imagined.

What to do with all these airframes the government had paid for already but were unable to sell?  The idea would be to outfit them as they are being built with systems lifted from other contemporary designs, i.e MPA with Shackleton, Neptune, Orion, Tracker ASW systems, Tracer, Warning Star, Hawkeye AEW systems, KB-29, Valiant, KC-135 tanker systems etc.  Basically anything I could find in 1/144 and bash onto an Airfix Vanguard.

The Aust, governments need to cover up their mistake unintentionally sees the ADF acquire significant strategic transport, AEW, IFR, ELINT, as well as an enhanced (larger numbers) ASW force, all based on the Vanguard.

[raafif]

just to go Retro for a change, how about this Burnelli Patrol ??

I can see a story for German U-boats escaping to their African colonies at the end of WW1 & re-launching attacks on shipping in the mid-late 1920s ..... Britain needs MPAs so introduces the Burnelli ..... not much range but ok for coastal convoy duties.

[jcf]

That's not a 1920s Burnelli, that design is mid '30s and the Brit Cunliffe-Owen built version wasn't built
until 1938.

Something CB-16 based would be more to period.