Author Topic: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related  (Read 111547 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #150 on: September 22, 2019, 02:56:01 AM »
I would imagine such aerial torpedoes looking a bit like bigger versions of the Henschel Hs 298:



or even something akin to this:



I am assuming wings would be a must as they would be too small for "electro lift".  Wire or radio guidance would be possible too.
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #151 on: September 23, 2019, 05:00:13 PM »
To use EL would require a large cap to power it which would be limited in flight duration plus the need for thrust which combined would leave little or no room for an explosive charge. ... perhaps a little flag could pop out with "BANG " written on it :)

tankmodeler was looking at a more simplistic approach keeping to similar principles as that of waterborne torpedoes.
I think stabilisers would be required and perhaps having them offset to create a spin which coupled with the high velocity from the solid fuel motor would keep the bugger going in a straight line ... maybe.... ;)
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #152 on: September 23, 2019, 05:52:35 PM »
Why not just use gyroscopic stabilisation? WW2 torpedoes had it.

Mark 14;


Mark 18;


Give it wings, tail fins & a rocket motor, move the gyro gear (which you'll notice is rather small) forward to allow room for the rocket motor, & Robert's your mother's brother's nephew's aunt's husband! :smiley:
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #153 on: September 23, 2019, 10:19:48 PM »
Find these cutaways really interesting  - nice one
Yes, the gyros would do the trick but would they be necessary I wonder if enough speed and spin is available to keep it straight?
I was wondering about a proximity fuse as well but with something like a battleship there is a need for armour piercing, blast won't cut it.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #154 on: September 23, 2019, 10:46:51 PM »
With respect to EL and capacitors/batteries vs propellant and warhead, I could posit a system where, much like your early WW2 fighters, the EL doesn't provide all the lift, but allows wings to be reduced to limit drag and increase speed. The rocket provides the forward speed for the wing lift as well, of course, to generate the velocity to get to the target.

The speed wouldn't have to be terribly high, say 20-30% greater than the aerial ships it is meant to kill. A pursuit course is never the way torpedoes work. They are fired at the broadside of the target and timed to intercept the target at a future point, not chase it down.

Basic setting of course and speed was known when Whitehead invented the modern water torpedo in 1866:
"The first trials were not successful as the weapon was unable to maintain a course at a steady depth. After much work, Whitehead introduced his "secret" in 1868 which overcame this. It was a mechanism consisting of a hydrostatic valve and pendulum that caused the torpedo's hydroplanes to be adjusted so as to maintain a preset depth."

And as soon as gyroscopes were available in the late 1890s, they were used instead and improved capabilities. WWI torpedoes were gyro stabilised.

Firing a spread has always been wasteful, absolutely, however until guided torpedoes came into being after WW2, firing a spread and hoping was the _only_ way to use torpedoes, so the concept is not out of hand.

In our world, torpedoes were originally fired in daylight from light ships against larger targets and from subs. The first set of techniques for daylight attack would be the obvious analogy to make, but the 3rd dimension of the EL world provide others. The submarine model could be used for attacking at night, especially moonlit nights, with the attacker moving silently on battery power and completely blacked out awaiting an enemy to come within attack range. Similarly, the PT model could be used with exceptionally fast, small EL torpedo craft lurking in clouds (analogous to PT boats lurking in inlets and bays) across the path of enemy aerial warships and then bursting out of the clouds in a small swarm to attack the bigger enemies.

The 3D nature of this EL world, though, also suggests a new method where ground anti-aerial battleship batteries launch torpedoes against enemy capital ships in a defensive manner much like the coastal batteries of our world protected harbours from enemy ships.

Loads of visual imagery there to play with.

Picture a young, dashing, New Englander at the helm of his Elco Levitation Industries 100' Patrol-Torpedo Craft, PT-109, bursting from the cover of a cloud along with the three other aircraft of his patrol to attack a destroyer-protected convoy over the Pacific in 1944. Having lain in wait for 4 hours, the convoy appears and the PT ambush is sprung. Approaching from above with two attackers to each beam of the convoy the first attack of the patrol quickly disable and dispatch the Japanese destroyer Sawakaze leaving 4 of the remaining 6 fast transports trying to resupply Rabaul to be destroyed at leisure.

Powered by 4 license-built Packard-Tesla Griffons, the Elco 100 footers could make 65kts while carrying six Whitehead-Westinghouse 24" Mk 14 aerial torpedoes, four  twin .50-cal MG turrets and two 20mm Oerlikon turrets. The ELco PT Craft were the first to carry oxygen for all crew members allowing them to attack from much higher altitudes than previous craft. Later in the war, as targets dried up, PT Craft carried fewer and fewer torpedoes and increased the number of autocannon and switched to raiding the more local aerial shipping lanes for smaller vessels.


:D

Paul

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #155 on: September 23, 2019, 10:53:44 PM »
Find these cutaways really interesting  - nice one
Yes, the gyros would do the trick but would they be necessary I wonder if enough speed and spin is available to keep it straight?
Spin for an unguided projectile would have to be pretty high meaning that you are back to needing a LOT of propellant. And, essentially the projectile needing to achieve gun-like speeds which drive the propellant needs way up.

Quote
I was wondering about a proximity fuse as well but with something like a battleship there is a need for armour piercing, blast won't cut it.
Proximity fuses need radar. For later in the war, absolutely, but, as you say, it would be pretty useless given that your aerial battleships are heavily armoured. You need a hit.

One of the differences between a water torpedo and an aerial one is that water provides a magnifying effect on explosions, i.e. with a torpedo exploding on he side of a ship in water, the water acts to drive most of the explosion effect into the ship, not the water. For an aerial torpedo, this wouldn't be the case and the bulk of the effect would be away from the armour.  Now, a hollow charge warhead, though, would see all the explosive effect be driven into and through the armour.

Paul

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #156 on: September 23, 2019, 11:00:32 PM »
Perhaps torpedoes with shaped charge warheads from the beginning, to get better penetrating power in the air?  The principle was well known long before it was applied to anti-tank weaponry.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #157 on: September 23, 2019, 11:10:56 PM »
With respect to EL and capacitors/batteries vs propellant and warhead, I could posit a system where, much like your early WW2 fighters, the EL doesn't provide all the lift, but allows wings to be reduced to limit drag and increase speed. The rocket provides the forward speed for the wing lift as well, of course, to generate the velocity to get to the target.

The speed wouldn't have to be terribly high, say 20-30% greater than the aerial ships it is meant to kill. A pursuit course is never the way torpedoes work. They are fired at the broadside of the target and timed to intercept the target at a future point, not chase it down.

Basic setting of course and speed was known when Whitehead invented the modern water torpedo in 1866:
"The first trials were not successful as the weapon was unable to maintain a course at a steady depth. After much work, Whitehead introduced his "secret" in 1868 which overcame this. It was a mechanism consisting of a hydrostatic valve and pendulum that caused the torpedo's hydroplanes to be adjusted so as to maintain a preset depth."

And as soon as gyroscopes were available in the late 1890s, they were used instead and improved capabilities. WWI torpedoes were gyro stabilised.

Firing a spread has always been wasteful, absolutely, however until guided torpedoes came into being after WW2, firing a spread and hoping was the _only_ way to use torpedoes, so the concept is not out of hand.

In our world, torpedoes were originally fired in daylight from light ships against larger targets and from subs. The first set of techniques for daylight attack would be the obvious analogy to make, but the 3rd dimension of the EL world provide others. The submarine model could be used for attacking at night, especially moonlit nights, with the attacker moving silently on battery power and completely blacked out awaiting an enemy to come within attack range. Similarly, the PT model could be used with exceptionally fast, small EL torpedo craft lurking in clouds (analogous to PT boats lurking in inlets and bays) across the path of enemy aerial warships and then bursting out of the clouds in a small swarm to attack the bigger enemies.

The 3D nature of this EL world, though, also suggests a new method where ground anti-aerial battleship batteries launch torpedoes against enemy capital ships in a defensive manner much like the coastal batteries of our world protected harbours from enemy ships.

Loads of visual imagery there to play with.

Picture a young, dashing, New Englander at the helm of his Elco Levitation Industries 100' Patrol-Torpedo Craft, PT-109, bursting from the cover of a cloud along with the three other aircraft of his patrol to attack a destroyer-protected convoy over the Pacific in 1944. Having lain in wait for 4 hours, the convoy appears and the PT ambush is sprung. Approaching from above with two attackers to each beam of the convoy the first attack of the patrol quickly disable and dispatch the Japanese destroyer Sawakaze leaving 4 of the remaining 6 fast transports trying to resupply Rabaul to be destroyed at leisure.

Powered by 4 license-built Packard-Tesla Griffons, the Elco 100 footers could make 65kts while carrying six Whitehead-Westinghouse 24" Mk 14 aerial torpedoes, four  twin .50-cal MG turrets and two 20mm Oerlikon turrets. The ELco PT Craft were the first to carry oxygen for all crew members allowing them to attack from much higher altitudes than previous craft. Later in the war, as targets dried up, PT Craft carried fewer and fewer torpedoes and increased the number of autocannon and switched to raiding the more local aerial shipping lanes for smaller vessels.


:D

Paul


That is a lot of imagery and its fired a few extra neurons  and I might also be getting a little moist :)
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #158 on: September 23, 2019, 11:22:08 PM »
Proximity fuses need radar......


Not always so:



Just stand off and fire into the bomber stream :)

Dunno why but this is my most popular image. I think I have done better.
Inspired by the label given to the JU87 -   “flying artillery”.
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Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #159 on: September 24, 2019, 09:29:09 PM »
Proximity fuses need radar......
Not always so:
Yeah, they need radar because the fuses themselves are mini radar sets. That's the point I was making, not that you need radar to find or target the enemy, but that the round, itself, needs miniature radar to actually set itself off in proximity to the target.  :D

Offline tankmodeler

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #160 on: September 24, 2019, 09:38:37 PM »
That is a lot of imagery and its fired a few extra neurons  and I might also be getting a little moist :)
For an aerospace engineer, I can occasionally wax lyrical...

Paul

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #161 on: September 24, 2019, 11:38:24 PM »
Proximity fuses need radar......
Not always so:
Yeah, they need radar because the fuses themselves are mini radar sets. That's the point I was making, not that you need radar to find or target the enemy, but that the round, itself, needs miniature radar to actually set itself off in proximity to the target.  :D

This is true my mistake.
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Offline deathjester

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #162 on: September 25, 2019, 06:14:24 AM »
Amazing!!  I love these artworks!

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2019, 04:33:21 PM »
Amazing!!  I love these artworks!

Appreciate that thank you :)
Going through a bit of a lean period inspirationally at the moment but this happens now and again but the bounce back is fun  ... usually
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #164 on: September 28, 2019, 01:22:41 PM »
Anybody have any idea where a guy could find a gun to fit this beast? I was google searching for model artillery but I didn't get any useful hits. Is there a tank gun that might be close to this? Maybe an open top vehicle like a Hellcat tank destroyer? The MGs I could find and the body I would just vacuform but I would like to have a gun with the breech to build around.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #165 on: September 28, 2019, 05:42:37 PM »
Anybody have any idea where a guy could find a gun to fit this beast? I was google searching for model artillery but I didn't get any useful hits. Is there a tank gun that might be close to this? Maybe an open top vehicle like a Hellcat tank destroyer? The MGs I could find and the body I would just vacuform but I would like to have a gun with the breech to build around.

I haven't got a clue as all I do is push pixels but I'm dead happy you are considering building it :)
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Offline Kerick

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #166 on: September 28, 2019, 08:31:32 PM »
Thanks! We’ll see what happens. Best laid plans of mice and men and all that.
I could just get a metal gun barrel and fake the rest. Just box it in under the cockpit floor. Of course with a one man/woman crew it would have to have an auto loader as I’m sure it’s not a one shot weapon. I should start writing this down.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #167 on: September 28, 2019, 08:36:16 PM »
Anybody have any idea where a guy could find a gun to fit this beast? I was google searching for model artillery but I didn't get any useful hits. Is there a tank gun that might be close to this? Maybe an open top vehicle like a Hellcat tank destroyer? The MGs I could find and the body I would just vacuform but I would like to have a gun with the breech to build around.

Your scale is going to be the limiting factor with availability of anything. The following is for 1/35.

The workings of the gun seem hidden in the body of the beast (which means a rough block of wood or styrene of appropriate size would work), so you really only need the barrel, of which you can get any number.

75mm works best for US/British/German vehicles.
Link to examples: https://www.bnamodelworld.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&categories_id=222&scale=1%2F35&search_in_description=0&keyword=75mm&inc_subcat=0&page=1&zenid=56dee8e8ff826d12409d5a3533f85e33

However, if you insist on internals, this is a good, reasonably priced option: https://www.bnamodelworld.com/military-vehicles-tanks-detail-up-parts-resicast-res-352280?zenid=56dee8e8ff826d12409d5a3533f85e33


If you want an American/Western version you could stick with the .50-cal's (you can get them anywhere!) but for a Soviet version may I suggest the 12.7mm DShK (Dushka)?
Link for examples: https://www.bnamodelworld.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&scale=1/35&search_in_description=0&keyword=dshk&inc_subcat=0&zenid=56dee8e8ff826d12409d5a3533f85e33

For the Soviet version I'd also suggest going for a 76mm main gun, unfortunately the only way I can see to get the gun internals is to buy an SU-76 (see below).
Link: https://www.bnamodelworld.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&categories_id=8&scale=1%2F35&search_in_description=0&keyword=su-76&inc_subcat=0

Or, again, just go for the barrel & a block of stuff.
Link: https://www.bnamodelworld.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&categories_id=222&scale=1%2F35&search_in_description=0&keyword=su-76%20gun&inc_subcat=0&zenid=56dee8e8ff826d12409d5a3533f85e33


Best I can do for you, mate! ;)
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Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #168 on: September 28, 2019, 09:40:26 PM »
Thanks! We’ll see what happens. Best laid plans of mice and men and all that.
I could just get a metal gun barrel and fake the rest. Just box it in under the cockpit floor. Of course with a one man/woman crew it would have to have an auto loader as I’m sure it’s not a one shot weapon. I should start writing this down.


I figured on an auto loader. I mention in the story it was an adaptation of the one used on the ME626

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Offline Kerick

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #169 on: September 29, 2019, 06:51:28 AM »
Many thanks to Old Wombat for looking up all that information! Now I have to put it to good use. I thought about an anti gravity GB but that guarantees I’ll be late building it.

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #170 on: October 24, 2019, 01:26:05 AM »
Happened to be in Cambridgeshire on Monday so a quick visit to Duxford only seemed right. I was glad to find P551 "Sue says hi" is over her field coil issue and cleared for flight. Problem is now its going to be next year before I get to see her airborne again ... heavy sigh!

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #171 on: October 24, 2019, 04:54:14 PM »
That's just brilliant! 8)
"This is the Captain. We have a little problem with our engine sequence, so we may experience some slight turbulence and, ah, explode."

Offline finsrin

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #172 on: October 24, 2019, 05:16:39 PM »
Totally way cool  8)

Only improvement would be some squish at bottom of tires.   Not complaining......

Offline zzshogunate

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #173 on: October 24, 2019, 07:14:10 PM »
Yo this is excellent!

Offline Small brown dog

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Re: Small Brown Dog Artwork and related
« Reply #174 on: October 25, 2019, 01:38:02 AM »
Thanks all  but I'm not there yet.
Got a way to go before I get  a decent "fooled you" image but I'm working on it ;)
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