Author Topic: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38  (Read 26283 times)

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2014, 06:22:32 AM »
I really like the tailless one on the right!

Looks more like a "should've-been" than a what-if!

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Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2014, 03:09:12 PM »
Thanks!

And the genius topic of Master Brian http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4672.0 opened new fields in my mind…
As the Great War entered its fifth decade,


More precisely, this provides me with 2 different explanations to classify the VERY MYSTERIOUS (half-modern) Loughead L-338A “DATED 1918”:

Either:
- WW1 was of course dated 1914-1918 only but President Wilson has decided in 1917, while declaring war to Germany, that “this will be a very long war, but I guarantee it will last no more than 2 years, I swear it, on the Bible; besides (for astronomic reasons) the duration of a year is no more 365 days but 3,650 days, all right” (when this new system was cancelled, modern designs of the very-long-1918 were reclassified 1936 – the war dogmas of biplane layout and opened cockpit were still effective of course, even if engines and aerodynamism had improved a lot).
- In the normal 1918 (365-days long), prospective designs of foreseen future (science-fiction) involved huge engines, light alloys, and very streamlined futuristic lines…

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2014, 10:09:50 PM »
Back on the serious side of 1918, on this very planet here...
With maybe a little asymmetry, while the German Gotha succeeded last year in this field with their Go.VI, and we, American engineers, are even better! Proudly!"...

There was another domain where US engineers were feeling jealous of German ones ("we could have invented that ourselves!"): Zwillings, like the Fokker M9... This gave birth to the L-38Z and L-38Z2, yes:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2014, 01:40:20 AM »
Despite my jokes about asymmetric and zwilling German designs, I swear I am not lacking respect towards US engineers! Even years before our dear Elmayerle get his diploma, US engineers were at the top in aircraft engineering, and the WW1-years proof of this is the L-38W patent of 1918, that inspired the Caproni Noviplano flown in 1921:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2014, 01:49:54 AM »
(ups, there were so many propellers and pylons, I made a wrong order in my slanting view, sorry, here is the corrected drawing:)

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2014, 12:55:35 PM »
the war dogmas of biplane layout and

Wrong, Mr Tophe! As soon as 1913, the (French) Deperdussin Monoplane racer had broken into pieces the biplane dogma, and US engineers could do even better! Though, building a monoplane solid enbough was a challenge, but with struts it worked. Anyway, this is not exactly the "L-38 of 1918" story, but a preliminary introduction: the Loughead L-37 of 1917 (versions A, B, C, all built in thousands copies, as everyone knows)...

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2014, 01:19:58 PM »
the L-38W patent of 1918, that inspired the Caproni Noviplano flown in 1921
Of course, this 8-engined 9-winged monter did not came from an alcoolic delirium but from a logical sane evolution: the 6-engined 6-winged YL-38W and the (almost normal) 4-engined 3-winged XL-38W:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2014, 07:50:32 PM »
Thanks to Acree's http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4673.0 , I have found Looghead derivatives of the Gallaudet D-4:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2014, 01:54:09 AM »
Of course, the use of a canard foreplane was considered too (L-38K1, K2, K3):

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2014, 03:47:54 AM »
1918 was not prehistory... the Loughead designers even tried the rare O-wing on the L-38O1, O2, O3:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2014, 06:54:47 PM »
Of course, the use of a canard foreplane was considered too (L-38K1, K2, K3):
Of course also, the light tubes of that time would have broken, several tubes were needed to hold the foreplane and front spats, thus L-38K1', L-38K2', L-38K3' below:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2014, 10:16:25 PM »
With maybe a little asymmetry, while the German Gotha succeeded last year in this field with their Go.VI, and we, American engineers, are even better! Proudly!"... My grand-grand-father died in a psychiatric asylum (like me), I don't know why.
You know: I was joking (in fact I am not dead yet, it seems), and... the asymmetric L-38s proved usefully that the central position of the pilot was not mandatory (this was decades before the RP-38 testbed for the Twin-Mustang piloting), and... so, the very best observer, ever, was then designed: L-38X External Observer:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2014, 10:31:49 PM »
Of course, years before the Bv-141, US engineers had discovered that the very best observer should be asymmetric even if this is difficult to admit for purchasers... The L-38X2 and X3 were designed though:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 01:11:38 AM »
Thanks to Silver Fox's topic http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=4645.0 about a Fokker gyroplane, here are the American equivalent: AGL-38A, B, C:

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 03:57:12 AM »
No one can take a concept to the 'nth degree and definitely not with your incredible panache, mon ami!

Love the biplane version with the canard and engine on top!

Brian da Basher

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2014, 01:26:27 AM »
Thanks Brian!

Now I am going to reveal a secret... According to Wikipedia, the first rocket plane ever was German and dated 1928: this is all wrong, it was American and dated 1918: Loughead L-38R8, with 8 fireworks' rockets, fired one by one to increase range (160 seconds as grand total!). Flown with success, but the army was not interested, for unknown reasons.

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2014, 12:38:49 PM »
The Loughead design bureau of 1918 was brainstorming hardly...
After the rejection of the L-38R8, they designed the L-38R14 with enhanced range: 280 seconds of thrust! (but rejected as well)
And as the test pilots of the rocket R8 model complained about too much wind in the hair, they designed the L-38EC Enclosed Canopy, but the generals were not ready yet to pay for that

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2014, 01:46:54 AM »
Still in 1918 and decades before the Snecma Coléoptère, the brilliant Loughead team designed the Annular-wing L-38N (with the technology available at that time, it was not completely round but close to it, with the help of many struts, maybe too many...):

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2014, 02:58:08 AM »
My son disagreed about the previous design (I had shown him the Coleoptere to proove such aircraft did exist), and he said "the wing on your drawing does not extend backward enough", which I translate into "there is not enough wing area and the weight centering is wrong". And colouring it, he added a nose propeller.

Well, I looked again into the Loughead archives and... this was all completely right, absolutely, historically: this was the L-38N2:

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2014, 03:21:23 AM »
I like the L-38N. :)
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

You can't outrun Death forever.
But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #45 on: August 27, 2014, 12:43:56 AM »
the war dogmas of biplane layout and

Wrong, Mr Tophe! As soon as 1913, the (French) Deperdussin Monoplane racer had broken into pieces the biplane dogma, and US engineers could do even better! Though, building a monoplane solid enbough was a challenge, but with struts it worked. Anyway, this is not exactly the "L-38 of 1918" story, but a preliminary introduction: the Loughead L-37 of 1917 (versions A, B, C, all built in thousands copies, as everyone knows)...

There was also a "modern" L-38M monoplane in 1918:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2014, 02:34:45 AM »
Yes, the Custer Channel Wing was developped in the 1920s, long after WW1, but the idea was Loughead's and dated 1918, with the L-38CW:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2014, 11:54:14 AM »
Still in 1918, the 2-seat Channel Wing L-38CW2 featured many improvements:

Offline Tophe

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #48 on: September 02, 2014, 12:20:06 PM »
While the L-38CW and CW2 were rejected by the Army ("this cannot work!"), the Navy ordered 999 copies of the seaplane L-38CW3 (but they were cancelled when the war finished - even the prototype was not completed):
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 12:26:11 PM by Tophe »

Offline Brian da Basher

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Re: Loughead L-38: forefather of the P-38
« Reply #49 on: September 02, 2014, 05:51:48 PM »
Putting it up on floats is truly inspired, Tophe!

I especially like how you inverted the traditional biplane layout by putting the shorter wing on top. Put this in 1920's Italian markings and say it's a Savoia-Marchetti and few would doubt it was real.

You always have some wonderful, outside-the-box thinking, mon ami!

Brian da Basher