Author Topic: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70  (Read 36402 times)

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« on: June 27, 2014, 01:33:32 AM »
All things pertaining to the MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70 can now be consolidated in one location for discussion and sharing of ideas. 

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MBT-70/XM803/KPz.70 Links:

Wikipedia - MBT-70 (XM803), KPz.70
Wikipedia - Wargames Wiki Database - MBT-70
Wikipedia - Wargames Wiki Database - KPz 70

The Armor Site - MBT 70/KpfPz.70

Global Security - MBT-70/XM803

John's Military History Page - AFV Page - MBT-70 and XM803

Google Books - New Scientist - The Evolving Battle Tank,  R.M. Ogorkiewicz

Battle Tanks (battletanks.com) MBT-70
Tank Nut Dave (tanknutdave.com) The Armoured Essentials - Encyclopaedia of Military Vehicles- The Joint MBT-70 Project

Prime Portal MBT-70 Walk Around

Defense Media Network - The MBT-70 Main Battle Tank Program

SVSM (Silicon Valley Scale Modelers) - Image gallery - MBT70 Nonballistic Prototype, Patton Museum, by Matthew Flegal


Models of the MBT-70/KPz.70:

Shapeways - 3D Printed 1:285th scale MBT-70 (KampfPanzer 70) war gaming pieces (four piece set)

Armorama - Aurora Models 1:48th scale MBT-70 (kit number 318-150) In-Box Review by Frederick Boucher

I have had two of the Aurora MBT-70 kits.  The first one was built a very long time ago and I took liberties with the kit and added an M2 .50 Browning HB on a pedastal mount just ahead of and to the left of the commander's cupola.  I may have added some additional stowage items to the turret but it was rather plain looking.  I did modify the 20mm gun by swapping out the kit part for something that looked more "20milimetery" as I was not familiar with the 20mm weapon used on the real test vehicles.  The end result was a nice little what-if with four infantryman on the vacu-formed display base that came with the kit.  The infantry figures were all armed with rifles that looked very similar to the Stoner 63 weapons system.  It was a very nice little kit and the spring suspension system really made my day as a thirteen-fourteen year old adolescent boy living in the Aleutian Islands.  I have no idea what happened to the model after I left home to join the Army and it was only just recently that I found another Aurora MBT-70 kit that was sporting the same box art as my original kit.  Not sure if I want to build it or just fondle the parts and leave it as-is in the box.   

Modeling Madness - Dragon Models 1:35th scale MBT-70/KPz.70 (kit number 3550) In-Box Review by Robert Meyers

Panzer-Modell.de - Dragon Models "Black Label" 1:35th scale MBT-70/KampfPanzer 70 (kit number 3550) in box review (German language page)

Armorama - Dragon Models "Black Label" 1:35th scale MBT-70/KPz.70 (kit number 3550) In-Box Review by Dale Oliver

There are a number of us that have been turned off by the MSRP on this model kit and I was surprised to find that a slight break in price could be had by going through Amazon.com to purchase the kit directly from Dragon Models USA.  Here is the link to the sales page at Amazon.com: Dragon Models 1:35th scale MBT-70 (KPz. 70) $59.70 with free shipping).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 04:13:04 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2014, 02:50:05 AM »
Commander Models also do a 1/35 MBT-70:  http://ironshipwrights.com/armor/MBT70.html
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2014, 04:14:00 AM »
Commander Models also do a 1/35 MBT-70:  http://ironshipwrights.com/armor/MBT70.html


Thanks Greg, still filling in the blanks on the original post when you added your comment.  Saves me some time looking for that link. :)
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 08:20:37 AM »
MBT70 was an attempt at a revolutionary leap forward but in doing so it was (for the day) hideously expensive and stretched the envelope to breaking point.  I've never quite understood the rationale for putting the driver in the turret.   His location there caused all sorts of problems.  Normally he needs excellent vision to the front and sides to allow him to do his job but they found putting him in a contra-rotating "turret" resulted in quite severe spatial disorientation because he could never be sure which direction he or the vehicle was pointing.  His location in the turret also interfered with the commander's vision (the normal location of the commander at the heighest point of the vehicle offering the best vision was partially blocked by the drivers turret).

In the "low-cost" version of the MBT70 which was developed from it, the XM803, they returned the driver to the front of the hull.



The XM803 in turn led to the M1 Abrahms by a roundabout way.

The hydrodynamic suspension of the MBT70 offered considerable potential:



But apart from the Strv103 ("S Tank), only the Japanese Type 74 adopted anything similar.   With the development of gas turbines and 3 axis gyro stabilisation for MBTs, the emphasis changed to fire on the move and the idea of sneaking up to a reverse slope position and sniping at the enemy got left behind, so hydrodynamic suspension got abandoned for MBTs.

Some of the development vehicles offer some interesting ideas though:



Improved electronic Fire Control Systems with cheaper and easier to use computers also spelt the end of the Shillelagh gun/missile system, which the Germans were always a little leery of anyway.  They planned to use a 120mm gun on their modified version of the MBT70, the "Keilor" anyway, if they had adopted it.
 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 11:43:45 AM by Rickshaw »

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 11:37:01 AM »
From the DML (Dragon Models Limited) and CyberHobby thread in the New Model Kit News/Reviews forum:

I'd love to whif this kit as a Canadian Armoured Corps, following the same career path as the Leopard. So we'd end up with a well worn MBT-70 with MEXAS armour and slats and mine plow somewhere in Panjwai.

Well, I'm not stopping you! :D
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Oh, why are we wai-ting? Oh, why-y are we wai-ting? Why are we wai-ting? Oh, why? Why? Why? ??? ::) :icon_punal:



 ;)
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2014, 11:57:52 AM »
About the only thing I could come up with that would be interesting is to kit bash the MBT-70/KPz.70 turret with the hull of the M1 Abrams or the M48 or M60 just to have a traditional driver positioned in the hull.  That would give you some additional detail options and allow you to fill in the hole in the turret where the driver used to reside.  The M1 hull would probably be the most logical as it looks a lot like the MBT-70 hull.  Might be able to do something similar with the Leopard II hull for the KPz.70.
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2014, 01:47:21 PM »
The term you were looking for Brian is hydro-pneumatic, hydrodynamic refers to forces in or motion
of fluids.
Trust me, the MBT.70 has poor hydrodynamics.  ;)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2014, 04:11:37 PM »
The term you were looking for Brian is hydro-pneumatic, hydrodynamic refers to forces in or motion
of fluids.
Trust me, the MBT.70 has poor hydrodynamics.  ;)

I stand corrected.  How do you know what the hydrodynamics of this vehicle was?  ;D

Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2014, 12:26:30 AM »
The old Aurora kit was a bastard to push around the tub.  ;)
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2014, 12:55:36 AM »
I know the Black label kit at work wound up in my possession rather rapidly and is actually being assembled, a rarity for me, as tanks bore the living daylights out of me. Insanely long, elaborate backstory pushed this one to the front.
So far, it's actually going together quite well.

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2014, 04:13:12 AM »
Some interesting videos showing the MBT-70 - the first one shows the driver's position very well:

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>

<a href="" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win"></a>
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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2014, 04:17:22 AM »
Drawing should anyone want to use it…perhaps for some profiles ;).

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2014, 04:19:11 AM »
More pics - note the air defence 20mm cannon:



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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2014, 06:03:21 AM »
Looks like a cross between a German TD and something Russian.  Is that a bad thing?  8)
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2014, 12:39:45 PM »
Has anybody found a picture of the XM803?  I've been looking and been unable to find one showing the revised driver's position in the hull.

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2014, 03:20:11 AM »
I've never quite understood the rationale for putting the driver in the turret.


The Wikipedia entry on the MBT-70 provides this (based upon this Der Spiegel article): "The MBT-70 ended up very low, just over 6 feet (1.8 m) from the floor to the turret-roof. This left no room in the hull for the driver, who had to be moved into the turret. He was located in a cupola which was geared to rotate so that he was always looking in the same direction even if the turret turned. He could also spin the cupola around, so the tank could be driven backwards at full speed."

That does make some sense.  In fact, if you think about it, if reversing, he potentially had far better vision than if positioned in the normal hull position.
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Offline Logan Hartke

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2014, 03:45:49 AM »
"Potentially?" As I understand it, the driver's position in most standard AFVs has a lot of advantages but visibility isn't one of them. If it had ANY rearward visibility, then it was superior.

Cheers,

Logan

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2014, 03:54:11 AM »
"Potentially?" As I understand it, the driver's position in most standard AFVs has a lot of advantages but visibility isn't one of them. If it had ANY rearward visibility, then it was superior.

 ;D
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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2014, 11:05:52 PM »
trying to figure out how that 20mm barrel gets retracted and completely stowed away under the split hatch?

Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2014, 05:00:21 AM »
And what would the production version be called? Would be named, in German, after a member of the large cat family? Or in English after an American General?

I think my Canuck version will be called.... Vielfraß C1 (wolverine)

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2014, 06:39:05 AM »
I would imagine the German one would have been the Leopard 2 and the American the Abrams...
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Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2014, 11:16:05 PM »
I've been spinning in little circles trying to come up with the right name for my MBT-70, being as it's going to be a fictional Canadian unit using it. Currently, w name out vehicles after land mammals, like Buffalos and Cougars, etc, but I finally decided to go in a different direction.
We used the names previous users had, like Sherman and Centurion, so why not go with the concept the Americans and British did of naming them after famous generals. Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 07:40:03 AM »
I would imagine the German one would have been the Leopard 2 and the American the Abrams...

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Offline Gingie

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 07:45:38 AM »
Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


Alvis 3.1

Woohoo! More Canuck MBT 70's.

Well, Crerar and Currie were both Gunners....Howzabout Worthington or ?

Offline Alvis 3.1

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 09:18:58 AM »
Now I'm stuck between "Currie" and "Crerar"


Alvis 3.1

Woohoo! More Canuck MBT 70's.

Well, Crerar and Currie were both Gunners....Howzabout Worthington or ?


Riel?
Oh, yeah, bad idea.

Worthington sounds awesome! I didn't know aboot him until now, and having read up a bit, naming a tank after him makes the most sense. Of course, given what happened during WW2, maybe having it then renamed the "Simonds" would be horribly ironic!
Nah, a tank named after"Fighting Frank"? Damn straight, that makes the most sense! Thanks!

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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2015, 05:58:47 AM »
My recent foray to Skyway Models resulted in the DML/Dragon/Black Label KPz-70 coming home with me for a price that could not be ignored.  Yes Emil the Enabler did make me an offer I could not refuse.  :)

To be honest, I am no real fan of the driver in the turret configuration used on the MBT-70/KPz-70 and I was wondering how I get away with not using that configuration.  There is the option to add a drivers position but that would require some creativity and might require lengthening the hull to make room for the driver.  Another option that would take care of this in a hurry would be to just take the KPz-70 turret and drop it into a different hull. 

The candidate hull for this would be the M1 Abrams or the Leopard II as they are available in my stash and without purpose at the moment.  My preference at first would be to use the M1 Abrams hull as I happened to have one sitting on the rack in my 20.0' cargo container and easy to access.  That was my first choice and the turret does fit with no interference with the engine deck.  Second choice is the Leopard II hull, I have a couple of the Italeri and ESCI kits on the same rack in the cargo container and I will take a look at those later today or at least this week, time permitting. 

Another possibility that comes to mind as I type this out is to check and see if the Challenger or Chieftain hull might work with theKPz-70 turret.  Need to dig out the Trumpeter Challenger kits and the Tamiya Chieftain kits to check on that but both have to be located before that can happen. 

After the turret swap, the next thing to do is get rid of that huge featureless 152mm gun tube and replace it with something a bit smaller like the 120mm from the Leopard II or the M1A1/M1A2.  Of course if the Chieftain or Challenger hull works it might be fun to see if the gun tube from the Chieftain or Challenger will fit the KPz-70 turret. 

With that, I now wonder what could be done with the KPz-70 hull?  No driver compartment so it is perfect for a robot tank/unmanned armoured fighting vehicle. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2016, 09:49:03 AM »
With 120 mm and 140 mm guns


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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2016, 02:15:26 AM »
Those look great!

I really wish someone would produce a 140mm barrel in 1/35.
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2016, 04:59:08 PM »
Here you can see MBT-70 compared with M-60 IMHO it is not so difficult to make room in hull for driver ...



... here turret has been moved aft and glacis has been modified in central area,



Now thinking on using freed area in turret to install a rocket launcher. Antitank and anti-helicopter too.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2016, 08:45:35 PM by ysi_maniac »

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2016, 09:34:58 AM »
According with last line drawings I have calculated that hull without wheels is about 95 cm high; which is enough, as you can see in the Formula-1 draw, enough for a driver in hull. I admit that not very confortable. Driver in this draw needs 132 x 75 cm.



Lets speak about the issue. Am i right, in your opinion?

Is it possible to install a magazine with some missiles in the turret, in driver's room? Can you give me an idea on how to conbine some antitank and some anti helicopter missiles?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 09:41:44 AM by ysi_maniac »

Offline Crbad

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2016, 11:20:33 AM »
Maybe you could mount ADAT missile tubes on the sides of the turret like the Russian terminator. This way you could kill two birds with one stone.
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Offline Kerick

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2016, 11:22:23 AM »
From what I understand about the Abrams the driver is in a reclining position. From what I've heard the driver frequently has to be woken up as they tend to fall asleep in that position.
I also heard the driver in the MBT 70 could get disoriented and car sick if the turret swung around too fast.
This is from my questionable memory so take it for what its worth.

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2016, 01:51:39 PM »
Removing the driver from the turret would certainly free up space for something practical like an observation and targeting device. 

From what I understand about the Abrams the driver is in a reclining position. From what I've heard the driver frequently has to be woken up as they tend to fall asleep in that position.

I also heard the driver in the MBT 70 could get disoriented and car sick if the turret swung around too fast
This is from my questionable memory so take it for what its worth.

Driver disorientation was mentioned in several reference books on the MBT-70/KPz.70

Have not read anything about Abrams drivers falling asleep though it does seem like it would be easy to do considering that reclined seating position.
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Kerick

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2016, 09:15:49 PM »
At least I believe it's when they are stopped for a length of time and not while driving. I hope.....

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #34 on: January 30, 2016, 04:34:58 AM »
as you can see in the Formula-1 draw, enough for a driver in hull. I admit that not very confortable.


I was under the impression that this sort of position was actually quite comfortable.  In fact, it aligns quite well with some purpose designed chairs:


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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2016, 11:27:23 AM »
Obviously Chieftain/Challenger drivers are made of sterner stuff than Abrahms drivers...  ;)

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2016, 11:54:05 AM »
Using driver's hatch in Buford's style will give us some additional room. http://www.combatreform.org/lighttanks.htm

Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2016, 01:09:03 PM »
Obviously Chieftain/Challenger drivers are made of sterner stuff than Abrahms drivers...  ;)

Nawp, just used to the shite that passes for British ergonomics. One of those UK oxymorons like Lucas lighting;D
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Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated shit
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2016, 01:18:52 PM »
Obviously Chieftain/Challenger drivers are made of sterner stuff than Abrahms drivers...  ;)

Nawp, just used to the shite that passes for British ergonomics. One of those UK oxymorons like Lucas lighting;D

I think you mean "Lucas Electrics".  Nowt wrong with the lighting, its just the supply or lack of electricity to the globes!  ;D

Maybe they made the Lucas stuff differently downunder but I've never heard anyone curse them the way you yanks and the poms do...

Offline jcf

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2016, 02:27:06 PM »
Obviously Chieftain/Challenger drivers are made of sterner stuff than Abrahms drivers...  ;)

Nawp, just used to the shite that passes for British ergonomics. One of those UK oxymorons like Lucas lighting;D

I think you mean "Lucas Electrics".  Nowt wrong with the lighting, its just the supply or lack of electricity to the globes!  ;D

Maybe they made the Lucas stuff differently downunder but I've never heard anyone curse them the way you yanks and the poms do...

Just paraphrasing the old joke, Lucas, Prince of Darkness as I've worked with Lucas stuff, automotive, marine and aircraft, and never found anything particularly wrong with any of it when compared to other manufacturers.

The real problem period is the Brit autos of the conjoined/nationalized era as the Government bureaucrats evidently
specified the cheapest, standardized solution for everything, with predictable results.  ;D

BTW, I'm not a Yank.  ;)
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2016, 09:49:18 PM »
Knew a bloke with a Jag, electrics by Lucas, that had head lights, indicators, brake light, power windows go out on one side of his car after an electrical storm before just as mysteriously starting to work again a couple of days later before the other side went then everything all together.  Prince / Lord of Darkness was a running joke for ages every time he was late for work with another car drama story, though half the time or more I suspect he slept in and was just blaming the car.

As for drivers sleeping, if you weren't driving or servicing the vehicle (or any of the multitude of other jobs they had you do), sleeping in your seat was perfectly sensible thing to do, even in a seat as uncomfortable as the M-113 one I used to inhabit as a lowly driver.

Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2021, 05:34:01 AM »
With 120 mm and 140 mm guns




These remind me of the old TWILIGHT 2000 illustrations.
Also reminds me of the Aurora square box with the lurid cover art
https://imodeler.com/2018/06/mbt-70-a-cold-war-mistake-aurora-1-48/



So there's 3D models and files for this tank now
1/87th https://www.therailroadconnection.com/products/1-87th-scale-3d-printed-u-s-army-mbt-70-main-battle-tank
1/100th https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3094372
Scale up by 114.94% to get HO scale.
For 1/72, scale up by 138.89%.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2021, 05:53:20 AM by Story »

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2021, 07:13:05 AM »
I wish there was an easy way to put the driver back into the hull on the MBT-70/XM-803.  Maybe replace the hull outright with an early M1 Abrams hull? 
The 120mm armed MBT-70 does look like the best choice for a different main gun. 
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2021, 11:08:04 AM »

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2021, 03:51:14 AM »
I wish there was an easy way to put the driver back into the hull on the MBT-70/XM-803.  Maybe replace the hull outright with an early M1 Abrams hull? 
The 120mm armed MBT-70 does look like the best choice for a different main gun.

But its one of the defining features!

I wish someone could produce some 1/35 140mm main gun barrels.
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2021, 01:03:26 PM »
I wish there was an easy way to put the driver back into the hull on the MBT-70/XM-803.  Maybe replace the hull outright with an early M1 Abrams hull? 
The 120mm armed MBT-70 does look like the best choice for a different main gun.

But its one of the defining features!

I wish someone could produce some 1/35 140mm main gun barrels.

Or even the later 120mm/55-cal😯

MAD

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2021, 05:36:39 PM »
I wish there was an easy way to put the driver back into the hull on the MBT-70/XM-803.  Maybe replace the hull outright with an early M1 Abrams hull? 

But its one of the defining features!

As was the driver's vomit sprayed all over the instrument panels, apparently. ;)
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2021, 11:58:57 AM »
About the 20mm gun in unmanned litle turret. How was this gun aimed?

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2021, 03:25:09 PM »
About the 20mm gun in unmanned litle turret. How was this gun aimed?
With difficulty?

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2021, 01:56:40 AM »
No real difference to any other remote weapon:

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #50 on: July 28, 2021, 03:21:37 AM »
Excuse my ignorance  :-[, but I do know. I see no coaxial sight or tv camera :icon_crap: ...

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #51 on: July 28, 2021, 10:57:47 AM »
About the 20mm gun in unmanned litle turret. How was this gun aimed?

@Carlos - The 20mm Rh202 was controlled via the panoramic sight located on the periphery of the commander's cupola.  As described in this paragraph from Wikipedia [the highlighted bold and underlined text] :
Quote
The secondary armament of the MBT-70 consisted of a remote-controlled 20 mm Rh 202 autocannon for use against aircraft and light armored vehicles.[9] The gun could be retracted into a container behind the driver's rotating cupola for protection as well as to reduce overall height, and was operated remotely by the commander.

That panoramic sight is the tall-slender sight unit that can be seen in the image that GTX linked in his comment above.  Go to the link I have provided look at the schematic titled "Turret weapon layout, autocannon in stowed position, barrel pointing backwards" which shows the various features on the MBT-70/KPz.70 turret with number 6 identifying the panoramic sight. 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:00:24 AM by Jeffry Fontaine »
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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2021, 01:38:00 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:




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But you can make the Bastard work for it.

Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2021, 07:11:56 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:

Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2021, 07:53:34 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:
Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?
The Marder IFV was in production [ca 1971] and mounted the MK 20/Rh 202 20mm cannon long before that Leopard 2 Prototype [ca 1979] was even a twinkle in the eyes of the Leopard 2 design team. 
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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2021, 08:49:12 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:



I find this tank (turret to be exact) much more attractive than firsts Leopard 2.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2021, 01:32:46 PM »
Jeffry, THANKS A LOT!

Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2021, 09:14:57 PM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:
Where's Marderman?  Was that 20mm mount the one that ended up on the roof of the Marder?
The Marder IFV was in production [ca 1971] and mounted the MK 20/Rh 202 20mm cannon long before that Leopard 2 Prototype [ca 1979] was even a twinkle in the eyes of the Leopard 2 design team.

 Nevermind, I found the book answer myself.

The weapon station carries a 20 mm Maschinen Kanone Rh-202 which was first conceived during the Kpz-70/MBT-70 project. The system was deemed to fill the gap between the 120 mm main armament and the coaxial 7.62 mm MG. The canon was aimed electrically by the commander.

In the end, the station was not considered for series production, but the canon was adopted for other German AFVs such as the Marder and Luchs

https://panzerplace.eu/sekundarlafette-fur-turm-kpz-leopard-2-pt/

Offline apophenia

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #58 on: July 30, 2021, 07:47:36 AM »
https://panzerplace.eu/sekundarlafette-fur-turm-kpz-leopard-2-pt/

Great link! Thanks for that  :smiley:

But no mention of the maker of or designation for this 'Sekundärlafette:(

The Marder's standard KuKa turret seems always to be given some generic description with nary a designation to be found. You see things like 'Zweimann-Turm' or 'Scheitellafette' ... which are about as specific and helpful as 'Heck-MG' or 'unbemannten Turm' for the 1A1's goofy, rear RWS  :P

Weirdly, the turrets of experimental Marder variants are specifically identified. Prior to receiving an early version of the 'Zweimann-Turm', the prototype RU 363 mounted a Rheinmetall DL-RH 3 'Ein-Mann-Turm'. The Marder M12 had a KUKA/Rheinmetall E4A1 Turm for its Mauser MK 30-2. I guess the exception is the Marder 2 - I know it had a KuKa-built turret, but no clue on a designation.

As you said, where is Marderman? Didi would know  :D
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Offline Story

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2021, 09:55:20 PM »

As you said, where is Marderman? Didi would know  :D

1) Exactly.
2) You're welcome for the rabbit hole to explore.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #60 on: August 02, 2021, 05:54:32 AM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:

Hi Greg, can I asume that this prototype is based on Leopard 1A4 or so?

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2021, 10:41:37 AM »
The point is: were Leopard 2 pttyp and Leopard 1A3 or 1A4 dimensionally similar. You know that Leo2 hull is clearly bigger than Leo1 hull.  ???

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2021, 07:41:43 AM »
I answer myself





Protitype's hull is lengthier than Leo 2A4's :o :icon_ninja:

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #63 on: August 04, 2021, 12:59:29 AM »
If the MBT70 had entered service I wonder what upgrades it might have had by now?
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Offline raafif

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2024, 07:17:39 AM »
Russian Vis-mod MBT-70 !

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2024, 07:39:06 AM »
 :smiley:
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: MBT-70 (XM803, M803), KPz.70
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2024, 11:18:12 PM »
Interestingly, the Leopard II prototype also retained a 20mm cannon:



I find this tank (turret to be exact) much more attractive than firsts Leopard 2.

Exactly! I love this turret!