Anti-Helicopter Fighters

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

[Volkodav]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Battle field air superiority including anti helicopter fighter duties was one of the missions the French assigned to their Jaguars 

[Kerick]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Well, we've had plenty of warbirds converted to racers. Now its time to convert a racer to a war bird. Of course these type of racers are not meant to carry any payload and fuel is probably limited to the amount needed for the race. This is whif world, An enlarged Pitts with drop tanks and 25mm cannon?

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Battle field air superiority including anti helicopter fighter duties was one of the missions the French assigned to their Jaguars 

And the Italians assigned it to the G.91PANs of the Frecce Tricolori!

[Weaver]

Red Bull Advertisement for their upcoming September race in Texas.

They are impressive to watch.

Reminds me of the comment someone made once that the best "anti-helicopter fighter" would be something like an armed Pitts Special....

Well, we've had plenty of warbirds converted to racers. Now its time to convert a racer to a war bird. Of course these type of racers are not meant to carry any payload and fuel is probably limited to the amount needed for the race. This is whif world, An enlarged Pitts with drop tanks and 25mm cannon?

The idea weapon if you could carry the weight would be the Mauser RMK-30 recoilless autocannon.

Alternatively, how about a small pod of those laser-guided 70mm rockets?

[Diamondback]

Actually, it seems to me this might be a good niche for reactivating WWII fighter designs. Maybe a turboprop P-51?

Or, hell, as Evan and I have discussed jury-rig a CH-53E or CH-47 with A-10 wings and a suitable radar and rack up a metric buttload of AIM-9X or AMRAAM.

[GTX_Admin]

Screw the re-activated fighter idea - simply go with something akin to the EMB-314:

[Diamondback]

Also possible--for clarity, I wasn't thinking "haul the USAFM collection back to duty" but more "dust off and modernize existing designs".

Oh, heck... put a radar on a Hog and load it up with DRA's and AMRAAMs, Sidewinders or AAM's. Or maybe 19-shot launchers full of the new laser-guided Hydra-70s mentioned above... hell, maybe even an AAM Helfire/Brimstone derivative... a dual-target AAM/AGM version with quad-rail launchers on most stations would given A-10 squadron a good range of capability no matter what kind of armored/air-cav oppo you're facing.

[GTX_Admin]

using derivatives of existing turboprops (e.g. EMB-314 or AT-6B) would be more cost effective (both to acquire and operate) is one needed such a specialised capability.  Or better yet, just arm some helicopters.

[jcf]

Yep, the best helicopter fighter would be a faster helicopter or an XV-15. 

[Diamondback]

Conceded.

Alternatively, there are buttloads of old early jets around boneyards that could conceivably be overhauled... the 1st and 2nd-gen fighters (read: "pre-supersonic and thus militarily pre-historic") imght be suitable here too. Faster getting to the battle area than another chopper, not so fast they can't engage the target... they just need newer engines and modern avionics like laser-designator. The Sabre Dog might have found success in this niche...

[GTX_Admin]

Yep, the best helicopter fighter would be a faster helicopter or an XV-15. 

Maybe a Lynx/Wildcat with Starstreak or Stingers?

[GTX_Admin]

or maybe a modern day equivalent of the cannon armed Gazelle:



or…

[Volkodav]

using derivatives of existing turboprops (e.g. EMB-314 or AT-6B) would be more cost effective (both to acquire and operate) is one needed such a specialised capability.  Or better yet, just arm some helicopters.

Wasn't Star Streak originally intended to have a helo to helo version with a twin mount being designed for Apache and Cobra wing tips?  Speaking of Cobra isn't it Sidewinder capable?

[deathjester]

Yes, Cobra can carry and fire Sidewinder - the only problem is the HUGE plume of smoke whenever you chuck one at someone!

[kitnut617]

I thought that was 'Sidearm' ---

[Diamondback]

I thought that was 'Sidearm' ---

SideARM was an anti-radar conversion, based on an early and swiftly-retired SARH Sidewinder variant, IIRC.

[Kerick]

Actually the A-10 with its 30mm and a snap shoot gunsight would be perfect. I dare even a Hind to withstand those bullets!
When attacking a chopper maneuverability is crucial. I witnessed a CH-53 pull some amazing moves simulating a Hind during an exercise. I imagine something a little smaller would be excellent. There was much discussion in the Air Force and Army circles during the 70s and 80s about how the A-10 could cover this need.

[Diamondback]

Six words: "Chopper Popper," 706th TFS, Desert Storm. One of two helo-killer Hogs in ODS, and in both cases there wasn't enough LEFT of the chopper to positively ID, though they THINK one was a Bo105.

Set Stn 11 aside for ECM, 1 for a DRA with Sidewinders and 6 for a drop-tank which sadly blocks 5 and 7, and that leaves 2, 3, 4, 8, 9 and 10 for Hellfire launchers (24 choppers killed if one-shot pops and all work), more DRA's (12, ditto) or laser-guided rocket-pods (up to 57 assuming 2 rockets per, same caveats). Maybe add a new C/L station ahead of 6 for a LITENING or Sniper-XR mounted to clear tank and nose LG. Better yet, do an A-10B-as-conceived style mounting Sniper-XR and LANTIRN-Nav in extended "kneecaps"...

OR... is there enough clearance to put two rocket pods on 5/7 with a targeting pod nestled between on 6? If so, move the pods inboard and put gasbags on 4/8--same punch with more loiter time.

[Kerick]

Actually, it seems to me this might be a good niche for reactivating WWII fighter designs. Maybe a turboprop P-51?

Or, hell, as Evan and I have discussed jury-rig a CH-53E or CH-47 with A-10 wings and a suitable radar and rack up a metric buttload of AIM-9X or AMRAAM.

Look up the Piper Enforcer. A slightly enlarged turbo version of the P-51. Piper tried to sell it to the Air Force as a light tank buster but it never got beyond testing. The anti Hind role might have been more appropriate.

[Diamondback]

I remember it... it's exactly what I was thinking of with that idea. :)

And re '53s roleplaying Hinds, I seem to recall old HH-3 Jolly Greens in the same role doing mock-gunfighting with fighters and WINNING, hence the Pave Low community's distinctive red scarves. (Since they were roleplaying Russkies, they played Russian music, painted Cyrillic phrases on everything and started wearing red scarves... and then the tradition spread.)

[Kerick]

I don't know why but Piper kept the six 0.50 cal M-2s in the wings. I thought an upgrade to four 20mm would be better. Two 25mm chain guns would be really cool. Some stingers under the wings would be extra punch.

How about a scale-o-rama Pits Special in 1/48th made to look like 1/72nd? Sending in a bi plane would drive the generals nuts but I bet the pilots would learn to love it really quick.

[Diamondback]

Here's the kicker... I seem to recall the Jollies faced even early Tomcats and Eagles in that exercise, and still managed to best 'em. My memory may be fuzzy, though... we all know how Special Ops tales can be like fish stories.

[Kerick]

That's the deal with an aircraft that's slower but more maneuverable. It can do a bat turn and bite you real quick. A-10s would do that to over-confident fighter jocks all the time. The kill rate of A-10s would have been even higher if they would have had the snap shoot gunsight from the beginning.

[Diamondback]

Sounds like the A-10 is really more what the JSF program needed to be other than STOVL capability for the Jarheads... OTOH, maybe its unimproved-field capability is close enough.

Stick an attack radar on, develop an Omnivore Hellfire/Brimstone and rack 'em up, and whether tank, plane or chopper it should turn in a decent showing. Bonus, most fighters aren't equipped with ECM against Millimetric Wave radar IIRC... maybe beef it up a little on the gear for carrier capability.