Author Topic: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank  (Read 9412 times)

Offline Rickshaw

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Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« on: March 22, 2014, 06:39:46 PM »
Quote
Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank

Christopher F Foss, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
11 February 2014

An agreement to jointly develop a new medium tank was signed between the Indonesian and Turkish governments in Jakarta, Indonesia, on 6 February. Turkish company FNSS Savunma Sistemleri will work with local company PT Pindad to develop the tank for the Indonesian Army.

It is understood the new tank will be of a conventional design, fitted with a turret armed with a 105 mm rifled gun and 7.62 mm co-axial machine gun (MG) coupled to a computerised fire control system. For ease of deployment in Indonesia it is expected to have a combat weight of about 25 tonnes.

FNSS has extensive experience in the design, development, and production of wheeled and tracked armoured fighting vehicles (AFVs), with the latter including the Armoured Combat Vehicle (ACV) family of vehicles, which have been built in significant numbers for the home and export markets.

[Source]






Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2014, 07:12:42 PM »
interesting I wonder if this is a replacement for the AMX 13 and AMX 10 90mm.

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2014, 09:27:46 PM »
Maybe for the AMX-13 but it's not amphibious so I don't think it would replace the AMX-10.

It's an interesting step and it could be quite useful in the Indonesian islands, far more than the MBTs they've bought.  I would be tempted to suggest that the ADF should buy in as it would be more useful and could be used as an adjunct to the M1 Abrahms.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2014, 10:26:48 PM »
I agree something like this would be good but since when has that resulted in an actual capability acquisition?  ;)

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2014, 03:45:40 AM »
To me it looks very much in the same class as the Tanque Argentino Mediano (TAM) tank



Or the CV90105:



As for an Australian involvement, I think that should Australia want something in that class, a CV90105 or even the CV90120 (see below) would be more likely, especially given the CV90 Armadillo (at bottom) is already on offer for the LAND 400 requirement.  Doing this would give one useful commonality across the series along with an established in country support base in the form of BAE Systems.


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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2014, 08:44:45 AM »
Agreed on the CV90, it would be ideal for LAND 400.  Use the Armadillo as the base vehicle and adopt the various supporting versions to beef up the new CAV regiments.  I imagine the ideal would be a mix of Armadillos APCs and CV90 AIFVs in the line Troops and a DFS Troop at Squadron level or maybe a DFS Section and a Mortar Section at Troop HQ.  Wait and see although with the change of government I would be surprised if there is yet another delay and review on structure and needs.

Back when I was in the LH in the 90s we used to discuss where things were going with some liking to Bradleys but most preferring the Warriors and CV90s as an M113 replacement.  This was back when the Infantry were being motorised with Perenties and were look at being split into a light rec, Mulgara Squadron, and a heavy / medium Rec APC M113 Squadron that would eventually get what ever the M113 replacement was. 

Then came to M113 upgrade designed to keep it relevant until replacement in the early 90s once  Mulgara and Bush Ranger (Perentie and Bushmaster) had been rolled out.  Change in government, LH loses M113 for 4x4 and 6x6 Perenties, Mulgara cancelled, Bushamaster almost cancelled, M113 replacement deferred to the ether and M113 upgrade mutated into one of the biggest procurement clusters ever seen in Australia.

15 years and over a billion dollars to deliver a vehicle offering so little capability over the original just defies comprehension.  In fact in terms of capability the fact that armour has been stripped from the reserve CAV units and accordingly APC and armoured support has also bee stripped from the reserve Infantry.  The Regular force rely almost exclusively on the Bushmaster which is basically an MRAP and still have nothing remotely resembling an IFV.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2014, 08:50:06 AM by Volkodav »

Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2014, 10:00:24 AM »
See new thread about Project MULGARA Land 123   Have to admit, it was a new one on me.  I hadn't heard of it before.

A common hull - IFV, Light/Medium tank, etc. is a good idea but CV90 is rather expensive and suffers from the same problem all IFV/APCs adapted to tanks do - higher silhouette because of the higher hull.  This new tank from Turkey/Indonesia doesn't have that problem, going by the drawings.  It would be though, adaptable back to being an IFV with a higher roof line and the front mounted engine confers adaptability to the design.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2014, 10:06:54 AM »
I really liked the SEP of several years ago, common chassis, wheels and tracks, hybrid electric propulsion and replaceable modules of varying types and heights for the rear area.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2014, 11:27:50 AM »
but CV90 is rather expensive and suffers from the same problem all IFV/APCs adapted to tanks do - higher silhouette because of the higher hull.  This new tank from Turkey/Indonesia doesn't have that problem, going by the drawings. 

I don't think there is enough info on those drawings to make any definitive assessments. 

Developing a completely new hull etc (as opposed to modifying existing) would probably work it even more expensive unless a significant number are produced. 
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Offline jcf

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 11:54:33 AM »
With all the poverty in that nation, why waste the money on a, frankly useless, mini-tank?
Priorities are so fucked-up. War has never been as thoroughly pointless as it is today.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 12:20:41 PM »
but CV90 is rather expensive and suffers from the same problem all IFV/APCs adapted to tanks do - higher silhouette because of the higher hull.  This new tank from Turkey/Indonesia doesn't have that problem, going by the drawings. 

I don't think there is enough info on those drawings to make any definitive assessments. 

Developing a completely new hull etc (as opposed to modifying existing) would probably work it even more expensive unless a significant number are produced.

Which is why the costs are being shared, Greg.   Lots of places an MBT can't go and if they can bring the unit price down below the IFV conversions it will find an attractive market in the third world.  Coming from either Turkey or more particularly Indonesia it will have the advantage of not necessarily being aligned with any power bloc, as such, which will make it attractive in places like South America and Africa.

Offline jcf

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 01:50:54 PM »
More wasted money on crap neither nation actually needs.  :icon_sueno:
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
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actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2014, 01:55:10 PM »
Coming from either Turkey or more particularly Indonesia it will have the advantage of not necessarily being aligned with any power bloc, as such, which will make it attractive in places like South America and Africa.

I won't hold my breath waiting to see places lining up for Turkish-Indonesian armour.  Neither has exactly had a great record exporting.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2014, 03:38:40 PM »
Wonder what it means for the Korean Turkish tank

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2014, 03:59:25 PM »
More wasted money on crap neither nation actually needs.  :icon_sueno:

Sadly that is nothing new...and will continue for many years to come I suspect. :icon_crap:
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2014, 09:12:13 PM »
Coming from either Turkey or more particularly Indonesia it will have the advantage of not necessarily being aligned with any power bloc, as such, which will make it attractive in places like South America and Africa.

I won't hold my breath waiting to see places lining up for Turkish-Indonesian armour.  Neither has exactly had a great record exporting.

Both have ambitions.  Remember what they said about the Casa/IPTN CN-295?

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2014, 10:45:32 PM »
Coming from either Turkey or more particularly Indonesia it will have the advantage of not necessarily being aligned with any power bloc, as such, which will make it attractive in places like South America and Africa.

I won't hold my breath waiting to see places lining up for Turkish-Indonesian armour.  Neither has exactly had a great record exporting.

Both have ambitions.  Remember what they said about the Casa/IPTN CN-295?

Or South Korea for that matter

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2014, 02:09:55 AM »

Both have ambitions.  Remember what they said about the Casa/IPTN CN-295?

Ambition will only get you so far.  Re the CASA/IPTN CN-235 (there is no such thing as a CASA/IPTN CN-295 but there is a EADS CASA C-295), this had the benefit of having a well established and proven partner in the form of CASA behind it who already had export experience.  And some of the sales of the CASA/IPTN CN-235 relied more on political deals than true export success.  There have been less than 300 produced too so let's not get too hasty about proclaiming its success just yet.
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Turkey and Indonesia to develop medium tank
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2014, 02:17:36 AM »
For a FOV I would definitely go CV90 / Armadillo, we have tanks what we need are APCs, AIFVs and CFVs to support them and the CV90 FOV (as would others but with less developed ranges) seems to suit the bill.  There are even SPAAG, command, forward observer, recovery and mortar versions.