Apophenia's Offerings

[apophenia]

I wonder...will we see any Allied types in Juli-Plot markings?  Some Typhoons or Tempests?  P-51s or P-47s?

Greg: I wondered about Western Allied aircraft supplied to the Bundesluftwaffe but decided against. All was not forgiven in the aftermath of the Juli-Plot. After an Armistice was agreed with the pushed-back Soviets, German forces were to be disarmed and stood down.

perttime: I think you're right ... I've obviously misidentified that Bf 109G-2/R6 
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More Post Juli-Plot Messerschmitts

Top Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10 in the stripped finish typical of Bf 109Gs and 'Ks rebuilt or finished at the Wertheim facility. Although in full operational markings, this aircraft has been retained for armaments trials (performed by Wertheim test pilot, Flugkaptän Anton Riediger). As a result of these trials, paired mounts for 27 kg Raketengeschosse became an optional fit on Wertheim Bf 109 rebuilds (although supplies of the British 60lb SAP No2 Mk.I rockets to the Bundesluftwaffe remained spotty).

A feature of stripped Wertheim birds was the refinishing of tailplane wooden components and fabric surfaces in RLM 04 Gelb recognition colours. This aircraft's horizontal tails are also painted yellow. Rather unusual is the anti-glare panel. This may have been done in locally-mixed paints or even USAAF Olive Drab.

Bottom Another Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10, this time in an overall aluminum paint scheme. This Gustav has been supplied to the Latvijas gaisa aizsargi (Latvian Air Guard) which was now under US supervision. [1] 'Balts 4B' (White 4B) is a strafer armed with additional underwing MG 151/20 guns. (Other Latvian Messerschmitts were locally fitted with kanoe mounts for US 50-cal Brownings.)

The new Latvian national markings are based on the insignia of the prewar Aizsargu organizācija (AO or Guards Organization). [2] The Latvian flag stretches across both the tailfin and the rudder. 'Balts 4B' also carries Latvian National Guard emblem on its cowling (although it is not clear whether this was a unit or personal marking). Note that recognition markings are not in RLM 04 (perhaps this was USAAF-supplied yellow paint?).  This aircraft is shown in the markings it wore when crash-landed at Dno-Griwotschki, 94 km east of Pskov.

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[1] The new name literally meant 'Latvian Air Defenders'. Why it was felt necessary to change the post-collapse name from the established Latvijas Gaisa spēki remains unclear.

[2] This was in response to negative reactions to the traditional Latvian Ugunskrusts ('Firecross') symbol which the Western Allies (incorrectly) associated with the Nazi Hakenkreuze.

[perttime]

...
perttime: I think you're right ... I've obviously misidentified that Bf 109G-2/R6 
__________________________________________________

Top Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10 in the stripped finish typical of Bf 109Gs and 'Ks rebuilt or finished at the Wertheim facility. Although in full operational markings, this aircraft has been retained for armaments trials (performed by Wertheim test pilot, Flugkaptän Anton Riediger). As a result of these trials, paired mounts for 27 kg Raketengeschosse became an optional fit on Wertheim Bf 109 rebuilds (although supplies of the British 60lb SAP No2 Mk.I rockets to the Bundesluftwaffe remained spotty).
...
Bottom Another Messerschmitt Bf 109G-10, this time in an overall aluminum paint scheme. This Gustav has been supplied to the Latvijas gaisa aizsargi (Latvian Air Guard) which was now under US supervision. [1] 'Balts 4B' (White 4B) is a strafer armed with additional underwing MG 151/20 guns. (Other Latvian Messerschmitts were locally fitted with kanoe mounts for US 50-cal Brownings.)
...

But what do you get if you take a G-2 and mount the bigger machineguns on it, in addition to the wing guns?
---------
The very latest Bf 109 models are the best looking to me. The different cowling over the machineguns, etc. make them look sleek and muscular.

[Old Wombat]

[1] The new name literally meant 'Latvian Air Defenders'. Why it was felt necessary to change the post-collapse name from the established remains unclear.

I get Latvijas gaisa aizsargi = "Air Defences of Latvia", while Latvijas Gaisa spēki = "Latvian Air Force" (Google Translate); Therefore, if the Latvians saw the role of their air forces change from a force capable of/expected to engage in acts of aggression as much as acts of protection to one purely expected to protect the territory & air space of Latvia, & wished to telegraph this to others without actually coming straight out & saying it, then the change of name of the air forces is one means of doing that.

[GTX_Admin]

All was not forgiven in the aftermath of the Juli-Plot. After an Armistice was agreed with the pushed-back Soviets, German forces were to be disarmed and stood down.

So the Western Allies give tentative, but not overt, support to the Germans while they continue to fight to stabilise the Eastern front and reach an armistice with the USSR?

[apophenia]

perttime: Bigger Beulen' are Better! 

Old Wombat: Yep, that makes sense ... especially when being purely defensive is non-optional 

So the Western Allies give tentative, but not overt, support to the Germans while they continue to fight to stabilise the Eastern front and reach an armistice with the USSR?

Pretty much. Western Allied support is overt but only intended to last until the end of active hostilities on the Eastern Front. The Wehrmacht is to help in pushing back the Soviets to the Pripet Marshes and out of the Balkan states.

In the original storyline - as a result of a revolt against the SS in Italy - Kesselring becomes Germany's Interimsleiter. But, as the name suggests, that position was a temporary place-holder. And Kesselring's high office didn't prevent 'der lächelnde Albert' from later being convicted on war crime charges. The new Ob.d.M, Großadmiral Rolf Carls, was also charged - although not convicted by the Western Allies Tribunal. [1]

The idea is that the Western Allies regarded cooperation with a 'reformed' German military as a necessary evil to curb Stalin's ambitions. Once achieved, the 'denazification' of occupied Germany would be somewhat harsher than in OTL. After the armistice, the Bundesluftwaffe (like the rest of the German armed forces) is disbanded.

By 1950, tensions with the Soviet Union had resumed in earnest. In May 1951, the unified Bunderwehr defence force is formed -  with its Gruppe Luftverteidigung (GLv) responsible for air defence. The GLv was divided into two - the Flugwaffe flying component and die Flugabwehr anti-aircraft defences.

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[1] Of the three service chiefs, only Bundesluftwaffe head GenLt Hannes Trautloft escaped prosecution. So too did Wehrmacht C-in-C, Gfm Erwin von Witzleben. The SS had already been declared a criminal organization. Similar status followed for those holding NSDAP membership.

[jcf]

The Wehrmacht's* hands were no cleaner than those of the Waffen-SS, there was no "good" German military in
WWII, they were all in willing, and for a long time eager, service to the Nazi State. This was especially true of
the war of expansion and extermination that was launched in the East, they knew what the war was about and
the goals of the Nazi State. In particular the commanders and officer ranks knew the nature of their mission.
Sorry, but all of the German military, industry, police and majority of the populace were complicit in the actions
of the Nazi State. The "Good Wehrmacht" is a post-war invention, a propaganda tool used to create acceptance
for "West" German re-armament as an ally against the "evil Commies". Grotesque Realpolitik cynicism.

*Which actually refers to all of the non-SS German military; Heer (Army), Kriegsmarine and Lutwaffe, not
just the Army. The Army's direct role in various genocides is documented and proven.

As to the concept of post-Juli markings, I think it's doubtful that they'd return to the Imperial cross pattée as, in
aerial combat, it would be easily confused with the former marking. Some sort of roundel seems more likely.

[apophenia]

All good points Jon. In this scenario, I certainly wasn't trying to whitewash Wehrmacht atrocities. More of a needs-must interim ally for the sake of the scenario (although admittedly half thought-through scenario since I don't even have a MacGuffin to explain the sudden split between Stalin and the Western Allied leaders).

Anyway, I was in no way suggesting that there were any 'good-guys' here. And I am more than aware that some of the most ardent Nazis served in the Wehrmacht. (As an aside, I note that US POW officials were most suspicious of DAK veterans as zealous Nazis and general troublemakers. The British seemed to have more trouble with captive Luftwaffe members.)

Agreed too on the complicity of most of the German population. Is there a German equivalent to "take the King's shilling"? 'Take the Führer's pfennig' perhaps?

... As to the concept of post-Juli markings, I think it's doubtful that they'd return to the Imperial cross pattée as, in aerial combat, it would be easily confused with the former marking. Some sort of roundel seems more likely.

True. This was why, as an initial scheme, I had just scrubbed out the existing markings. Probably some sort of quick-to-apply ID mark would have been better.

Actually, I had previously done black-red-gold roundels (this was a second go at the concept).

[perttime]

...(although admittedly half thought-through scenario since I don't even have a MacGuffin to explain the sudden split between Stalin and the Western Allied leaders).
...

In the Real World, it didn't take all that long for the falling out to happen, after hostilities with Germany were over.
Perhaps the Western leaders were not happy about an expansion of the Soviet Union.

[apophenia]

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=10395.msg199647#msg199647

A Ki-100 with a DB 605A, you say? The marvelous Ronnie Olsthoorn comes to the rescue!

Here is Ronnie's Ki-61 (from Osprey's Ki-61 and Ki-100 Aces by Nicholas Millman) combined his bits of his Ki-100.

Backstory: By the start of 1944, the IJAAF had to concede that the new Ki-61-II Hein was a failure. Its higher-powered Kawasaki HA140 engine was judged the culprit. Chief designer Takeo Doi had already anticipated this outcome. Accordingly, he designed the Ki-61-IV Hein which mated the airframe of the Ki-61-III (with its cut-down rear fuselage) with the new Kawasaki Ha240 engine - a direct copy of the German DB 605AM. [1]

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[1] A prototype had been created by re-engining the one-off Ki-61 III with a DB 605A taken from the imported Me 210 V22 airframe. Under the unified Ministry of Munitions designation system, the Ha240 was listed as the Ha-160 - although this designation was rarely used in the field.

[perttime]

The Kawasaki Ki-61-IV Hien canopy has some Heinkel He 112B in it, to my eyes. Or perhaps it is just the logical way to do it. I'm pretty sure that Heinkel's fighter designs inspired the Ki-61 anyway.

[GTX_Admin]

 

[apophenia]

The Kawasaki Ki-61-IV Hien canopy has some Heinkel He 112B in it, to my eyes. Or perhaps it is just the logical way to do it. I'm pretty sure that Heinkel's fighter designs inspired the Ki-61 anyway.

Yes. The imported He 100s definitely influenced Kawasaki. Although that immediately reminds me of Logan's brilliant Nakajima Ki-63 Haitaka :)

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=144.msg77354#msg77354

[perttime]

Yep. Logan's He 100 derivatives are great. I've been thinking that a further development with bigger engine and possibly cut down rear fuselage would be cool.

[apophenia]

... I've been thinking that a further development with bigger engine and possibly cut down rear fuselage would be cool.

It would. I wonder if Logan will ever return to the developed He 100 theme?

I had intended to follow up on Greg's suggestion of a DB 603-powered Kawasaki fighter. My problem was with the Ki-64 'Rob' being such a gawky-looking bird. Then, I thought, what about a redesign of the planned Ki-64 successor - the Kawasaki Ki-88?

So, in this AltHist, the IJAAF immediately rejected Kawasaki's proposal of a Japanese Airacobra. Instead, the mid-engined layout was replaced by a more conventional arrangement with the larger, more powerful Kawasaki Ha340 (DB 603A) in the nose. The resulting Ki-88-II 'Ben' [1] went on to replace the smaller Ki-61 Hien in production.

Bottom Kawasaki Ki-88-IIa 'Ben', the first production variant. This fighter-interceptor was quite fast but somewhat lacking in manoeuvrability by Japanese standards. Note that the Ki-88-IIa retained the original, small tailplane design from the Ki-88 (I).

Top Kawasaki Ki-88-IIc-Kai 'Ben', the ultimate production type. The 'Kai' featured enlarged tail surfaces and a revised radiator bath based on data collected from test-flying a captured P-51B Mustang.

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[1] The 'Ben' reporting name had originally been assigned to the fictitious Nagoya-Sento KI-001. Once it was realized that this was a non-existent type, the name 'Ben' was reassigned to the Ki-88-II.

[Litvyak]

Ki-88 strikes me as looking like the illegitimate offspring of a Bf. 109 and a P-51D.

[Logan Hartke]

The Kawasaki Ki-61-IV Hien canopy has some Heinkel He 112B in it, to my eyes. Or perhaps it is just the logical way to do it. I'm pretty sure that Heinkel's fighter designs inspired the Ki-61 anyway.

Yes. The imported He 100s definitely influenced Kawasaki. Although that immediately reminds me of Logan's brilliant Nakajima Ki-63 Haitaka :)

-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=144.msg77354#msg77354

Yep. Logan's He 100 derivatives are great. I've been thinking that a further development with bigger engine and possibly cut down rear fuselage would be cool.

Thanks for the kind words, guys! Those were definitely planned, but gradually stopped doing profiles a few years ago. These look great! Talos and I had planned the full Ki-61/100 treatment including cut down canopy and eventually radial with no belly scoop.

I love the Ki-88-II profiles, quite sharp.

[GTX_Admin]

 

[apophenia]

Ki-88 strikes me as looking like the illegitimate offspring of a Bf. 109 and a P-51D.

Cheers! That was kind of the vibe I was going for.

I actually did an intentional Bf 109/P-51 mashup development (a startlingly long time ago!).
-- https://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?topic=351.msg44510#msg44510

... Those were definitely planned, but gradually stopped doing profiles a few years ago...

Thanks Logan. Would you object to me bodging together 'low-back' Ki-63 variants based upon your profiles?

[Logan Hartke]

... Those were definitely planned, but gradually stopped doing profiles a few years ago...

Thanks Logan. Would you object to me bodging together 'low-back' Ki-63 variants based upon your profiles?

Have at it and let me know if any of the profiles in a different form (on a white background, for instance) would make your job easier.

[apophenia]

Have at it and let me know if any of the profiles in a different form (on a white background, for instance) would make your job easier.

Many thanks Logan. On backgrounds ... I know it is kind of perverse but I rather enjoy removing backgrounds. No idea of why ...

[Logan Hartke]

No problem, makes things easier for me. Thanks for asking!

[apophenia]

Despite my comment above, I decided to stay truer to Logan's original Nakajima Ki-63-Ia Haitaka image, complete with its dramatic blue background.

Rather than put a Ki-100 rear glazing onto the He 100, I chose to stick with Heinkel shapes. So, I pinched the rear glazed section from Herbert Ringlstetter's profile of the He 112 v9 and adapted it to the Ki-63-Ia.

That new rear glazing may look disproportionately long. But, in reality, the He 112B was just a bigger airframe than the diminutive He 100D - 30.24 ft long versus 26.90 ft.

[Logan Hartke]

I think that looks great, personally! And very much what Sean (Talos) and I had in mind.

[apophenia]

Thanks Logan. I did try the Ki-100 rear glazing of the Ki-63. It should work ... but just didn't look right 

[apophenia]

Robin mentioned a thread on SPF: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/spey-hunter-trainer-with-a-hawk-style-forward-fuselage.39740/

I decided to have a go at a 'linear' 2-seat Hunter but substituted a tilting hood à la the Canadair CL-30 - that long sliding hood on the Grumman TF-9J/F9F-8T never made much sense to me ...