Dassault Étendard and Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard Ideas and Inspiration

[GTX_Admin]

Hi folks,

a thread dedicated to your Dassault Étendard and Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard Ideas and Inspiration.

[GTX_Admin]

To begin with, here is some info on a speculative  Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard upgrade with afterburning F404-GE-400 engine plus dorsal fuel tanks:

[Weaver]

How about France pulls out of the Jaguar programme entirely (or Jaguar never happens in the first place) a buys a land-based attack version of the Super E instead? if it followed the Jaguar A pattern, it would have a shoerter, slimmer "tin" nose than the naval version with a laser-ranger in a blister underneath it. Weapons could be AS-30s, AS-30Ls, AS-137 ARMAT (MARTEL) or any French bomb.

[GTX_Admin]

How about France pulls out of the Jaguar programme entirely (or Jaguar never happens in the first place) a buys a land-based attack version of the Super E instead? if it followed the Jaguar A pattern, it would have a shoerter, slimmer "tin" nose than the naval version with a laser-ranger in a blister underneath it. Weapons could be AS-30s, AS-30Ls, AS-137 ARMAT (MARTEL) or any French bomb.

Well there was the Dassault Étendard II and Dassault Étendard VI which were offered to Armée de l'Air (ALA) and NATO respectively as land based attack aircraft.  They lost out to the Mirage III and G-91 respectively.

Dassault Étendard II:


Dassault Étendard VI:


If either or both of these had been successful in being selected, you could then have the basis for an upgraded version akin to the Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard.

[Daryl J.]

In the 1960's Canada felt that if there were to be a boots-on-the-ground conflict between the Russian and the Americans, they would become involved by default.   As part of battlefield reconnaissance plans, a number of Etendard IVPs were purchased.    The aircraft finally saw action in the early 1990's in Iraq and later the Balkans.

[Daryl J.]

Both the Greeks and the Danes used the SuE as a maritime strike aircraft.   

[elmayerle]

And if the Greeks used them, would the Turks be far behind?

[elmayerle]

To begin with, here is some info on a speculative  Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard upgrade with afterburning F404-GE-400 engine plus dorsal fuel tanks:

Hmm,  it would be interesting to see the various tradeoffs regarding also equipping this upgrade with a variable intake; an afterburning F404 might push all-out performance up to where such would be needed.

This does suggest another possibility, Israeli SE's re-engined along the lines of the Kfir.

[Volkodav]

Or if the relationship with France didn't sour Israel buying the Etendard instead of the Skyhawk, which would leave the possibility of Israel buying the Mirage F-2 or G2 instead of the Phantom and the Mirage F-1, then 2000 instead of the F-16 with the Mirage 4000 following instead of the F-15 

[Weaver]

The thing is, for a land-based air force, why would you want the Super E when you can have a Mirage 5, Mirage 50 or Mirage F.1? They can all be fitted with Agave and Exocet if you want, and they're faster and more versatile.

[dams301]

Hi guys,

Just received my Kinetic and I'm looking for whif idea.
I'm not yet decided for a real world one (French Navy in 2 grey tones or 1 one grey tone but I don't find a good payload configuration) and a whif one (more liberty for the payload, and I'm thinking about a possible upgrade with or w/o engine change*).

*with minimum structural change if engine is different

Any idea are welcome 

[upnorth]

What about Singapore? It's well known that they had a deal with France to carry out their A-4 training from Cazeaux.

Perhaps they could opt for the SuE over the Scooter and be fully integrated into the French navy's training sylabus for the type.

Generally, I think the SuE could be good shore based anti shipping platform for any European or Asian nation with smaller waters to defend.

As for the engine, I'm not sure how tightly packed things are in the back end of the SuE, perhaps a dry Spey could work as an upgrade. It was a few inches bigger in diameter than the Atar, but a few inches shorter. Though, even in dry form the Spey would have given a lot more thrust than the Atar. As a turbofan, it certainly would have been more fuel efficient. Trying to fit one might be worth the effort.

I'd also think about taking the airbrakes out of their current location to free the area up for a couple of fuselage weapon stations. Move the airbrakes to the rear fuselage, or possibly give it split aileron type speed brakes.

[Volkodav]

How about the Super Etendard really was super, i.e. higher performance than jaguar, perhaps pretty much a French Super Tiger, and as such was a viable replacement for Frances Crusaders?  Increased production run plus maybe more exports of this mach 1.7-2, slightly multi-role fighter.

Maybe as well as more power it could also have had a blown wing, or other high lift features, making operation off modernised Colossus and Majestic class carriers truly viable. 

One of my books stated that the US was looking at recommissioning four modernised Essex class carriers in the 80s as part of Lehmans 600 ship navy, a reason stated for this not going forward was the lack of a suitable modern combat aircraft to fly from them.  An Americanised Super Etendard (a genuine Skyhawk, Crusader and Corsair replacement) bought to fly from the recommissioned Essex's as well as from a new generation of CVS procured to supplement and replace them.

[dams301]

What about Singapore? It's well known that they had a deal with France to carry out their A-4 training from Cazeaux.

Love this idea, I take note for this.

As for the engine, I'm not sure how tightly packed things are in the back end of the SuE, perhaps a dry Spey could work as an upgrade. It was a few inches bigger in diameter than the Atar, but a few inches shorter. Though, even in dry form the Spey would have given a lot more thrust than the Atar. As a turbofan, it certainly would have been more fuel efficient. Trying to fit one might be worth the effort.

If it can help you, two pics of the A/C with removed engine :

I'd also think about taking the airbrakes out of their current location to free the area up for a couple of fuselage weapon stations. Move the airbrakes to the rear fuselage, or possibly give it split aileron type speed brakes.

Note a bad idea, I'll think about that. Moving them in the rear part of fuselage could be interesting.

One of my books stated that the US was looking at recommissioning four modernised Essex class carriers in the 80s as part of Lehmans 600 ship navy, a reason stated for this not going forward was the lack of a suitable modern combat aircraft to fly from them.  An Americanised Super Etendard (a genuine Skyhawk, Crusader and Corsair replacement) bought to fly from the recommissioned Essex's as well as from a new generation of CVS procured to supplement and replace them.

Arf... A Super Etendard in US Navy, love that. And, I could stand it along my USN Rafale N :



Have to found a VA of VFA beautiful scheme...

Now I don't know which one to choose 

[GTX_Admin]

Any of the following A-7 operators could be good candidates + you can get decals for them

Greek
Portuguese
Thai

[elmayerle]

Looking at the aft fuselage and engine, I'm more inclined to suggest a dry F404/F414 instead of a Spey, that looks pretty tight for even the early Spey and the Spey-Skyhawk was definitely looking at widening the A-4 fuselage as well as enlarging the intakes.

[dams301]

Ok, go with a dry version of F-404/F-414. Physically, how can I suggest the engine modification ? Based on 1/48th Atar 9K50 and RM12 in my stash, I supposed that a dry F-414/F-404/RM12 should be shorter than an Atar 8K50 ?

Greg, thanks for suggestion but I will stay with the actual 3 contender :
- real French Navy A/C
- Singapore (love those roundel  )
- US Navy (to go with my Rafale)

If I have to add a country, it will be the Thaď one (thanks to your suggestion) or an Australian one 

[elmayerle]

Look at the modifications Singapore had to make to install dry F404s in their A-4s.  As I remember, there's a scoop for cooling one of the relocated accessories on the new AMAD (Airframe Mounted Accessory Drive) that goes with the F404 as well as modified access doors underneath to get to the AMAD without removing the engine.  There's also a discharge grill for the air turbine starter on the AMAD.

[GTX_Admin]

If I have to add a country, it will be the Thaď one (thanks to your suggestion) or an Australian one 

No worries - I might do the Thai one.  It is obscure enough to force people to go digging up their references to check if the Thai's did have them... 

A RAN one is also nice - perhaps as a interim measure pending the delivery of their Mirage F1O(M)s

[GTX_Admin]

Speaking of RAN ones, here is a beauty Nick did about 4yrs ago:

[Jeffry Fontaine]

I think the Super Étendard would benefit from having wing-tip mounted missile launch rails for smaller AAM.  Perhaps using the parts from a Rafale towards that purpose. 

[dams301]

A RAN one is also nice - perhaps as a interim measure pending the delivery of their Mirage F1O(M)s

You read in my mind Greg 
Thanks for the reminder of the build. I knew that I already see an Australian A/C...

Thanks all for the suggestion. I already started to write a back story for RSAF A/F-11S (and SU for upgraded A/C) Super Etendard. I will start to do some profiles before the build to let me the time to decide between RSAF of French Navy (even if I already think about buying a second box to do both of them  )

Damien

[upnorth]

Another change you could make is to switch the inflight refueling probe to a fixed one, like what was seen on Mirage F.1s and use the vacant housing for some sort of electro optical gear, such as what was seen on the F-101B Voodoo

 

[dams301]

I had a similar idea but without the change of refuelling probe. I'm thinking to had an IRST/OSF-like on one side of the refuelling probe for the MLU version of my whif (great line of the backstory are done, but I still have to work on detail and evenement and of course, do the translation from french to english  )

Anyway, I will try to do a profile with the Mirage F-1 refuelling probe to see if it's good for me  :)

[Weaver]