Litvyak's profiles

[GTX_Admin]

I wonder how it would look with a big gun and multiple pylons loaded with weapons...ala a Canadian A-10/Su-25...

[apophenia]

Wow, that's brilliant! Was that an RW proposal for serious??

As far as I am aware, yes.  I am tempted to build it one day.

Litvyak: The V/STOL Clunk was a real proposal but it didn't get very far. Designed by Avro Canada's Project Research Group, the Orenda-built BE.53/2s would not have Harrier-style rotating jet nozzles. Instead, each BE.53/2 would have two Avro Canada patented 'eyelid' nozzles -- one forward of the wing leading edge, the other in the rear of the nacelle -- which were adjustable for fine pitch control.

These eyelid nozzles had been developed and tested for Avro Canada's submission for the US Navy's TS-140 Mach 2 'daylight' fighter competition. [See the start of my 'Avro Canada VTOL Fighter':
http://beyondthesprues.com/Forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=tdphjid659134qjp5muql1i9m6&topic=910.0

The 'puffer' pipes mentioned would be routed through the 'D' section of the leading edge to each wing tip (plus nose and tail). AFAIK, there was no plan to interconnect the BE.53/2s so what the PRG planned to do in the event of engine failure is anyone's guess.

Avro Canada management was underwhelmed and the V/STOL Canuck concept was never submitted to the RCAF. Two reasons for management's tepid response seem probable:

* Hawker's P.1127 could do the same job on a single BE.53;
* Avro Canada knew that its parent firm, Hawker Siddeley, wouldn't welcome any distractions from their more promising design from Kingston.

I'd add internal competition for resources to that list. Mario Pesando and the PRG had to focus most of their energy on the CF-105 while John Frost and the rival Advanced Projects Group were working on a completely new design -- the P.450, a Mach 2 thrust-ejector canard fighter.

[AGRA]

Thanks! The Clunk is one of my personal favourites, too.

As for a strike version - the CF-103 with the swept wings - at least, my AltCan version - is primarily a strike fighter; it was used mostly in the SEAD role in Vietnam.

Cool. The Clunk has all the features to make a great strike fighter. All weather navigation thanks to the radar (which had a ground mapping mode) and second crewman. Plenty of space for bombing and radio nav avionics in place of the big Hughes air to air engagement computer. Long endurance, high manoeuvrability and speed down low and surprisingly quiet. Hard hitting with the gun pack (big enough for four 30mm Adens in place of the eight .50s) and underwing stores. Also it looks pretty tough in the face of flak because of the separated engines, long jet pipes and empty tail structure.

I have an AltHist story about Australia and the Netherlands going to war with Indonesia over Dutch New Guinea in 1962 where the RAAF ends up with all the ex RCAF Clunks for use as COIN strike fighters. JFK puts in place a military embargo on Australia because he wants to hand over West Papua to Indonesia to keep them unaligned so Australia has to acquire weapons from other sources. One of which is the Canada who still under Diefenbaker are happy to provide surplus aircraft and new builds.

The RAAF goes to Canada to buy second hand Canadair Sabres (to back up the CAC Avon Sabres) and gets an offer for some 500 Clunks many with lots of hours left (and many more besides because of underestimation of the airframe’s life of type by Avro). The purchasing mission buys them because they are cheap and the RAAF needs interceptors to protect the North West coast of Australia against any Indonesian attacks. When they arrive in Australia they are found to be the perfect plane for providing interdiction against Indonesian infiltration into New Guinea. Kind of a jet powered B-26K Invader.

[Litvyak]

...Advanced Projects Group were working on a completely new design -- the P.450, a Mach 2 thrust-ejector canard fighter.

Whaaaat? Got any more info on this??

<RAAF Clunks>

Sounds like a great story! I do hope you'll be sharing more of it!

[elmayerle]

I love the various CF-100s.  Any chance of seeing CT-41R's (radar in nose as lead-in trainer for F-104, not sure if it went beyond paper study but I'm sure it didn't progress beyond an aerodynamic testbed) as I could see those with a pair of radar-guided AAMs as supplimentary point-defense aircraft.

[Litvyak]

Well, there's no CF-104 in AltCan, but perhaps with an Archer nose?

[Litvyak]

And here's the last batch of "boring" RW-equivalent Clunks - the Mk. V:


409 Sqn was one of only two to have operated all three in-service variants of the Canuck.


413 Sqn transitioned to the Canuck Mk. V in 1957, having previously operated Sabres.


414 Sqn was another unit new to the Clunk with the Mk. V. Like 413 Sqn, they operated Sabres until 1957.


419 Sqn transitioned from the Mk. IV to the Mk. V in 1956.


Like 419, 423 Sqn was a Mk. IV operator that moved on to the Mk. V in 1956.

[Litvyak]

425 Sqn was another to carry on operating the Canuck, switching from the Mk. IV to the Mk. V.


428 Sqn stood up in 1956 with a batch of Mk. Vs.


432 Sqn was another to transition from the Mk. IV to the Mk. V...


...as was 433 Sqn.


416 Sqn was a Europe-based Sabre squadron that transitioned to the Canuck in 1957.

[Litvyak]

After re-equipping with the Mk. V in 1956, 419 Sqn deployed to RCAF Zweibruecken in 1957.


423 Sqn joined 419 Sqn at RCAF Zweibruecken in 1957.


440 Sqn was another Europe-based Sabre squadron that re-equipped with Mk. V Clunks in 1957.


After the Mk. IIIs were withdrawn in 1955, 445 Sqn remained active - on paper; the squadron was originally to have re-equipped with the Mk. IV, but instead the transition was delayed until the Mk. V was ready for introduction. 445 Sqn thus became the first RCAF operator of the Mk. V. Interestingly, one of the last Canucks off the production line - 18789 illustrated here - also ended up with this squadron, as a replacement for an airframe lost in a training accident.

[Litvyak]

1958 marked the end of the era of colourful, distinctive squadron markings on fighters of the RCAF. With the introduction of the new 4+RCAF designation system came the introduction of a new, standardised marking scheme, and enforcement of standards became much stricter. As such, from this point on, all Canucks based in Canada appeared as this 409 Sqn Clunk illustrated here, with the only difference being the squadron badge on the fin.


The story was no different for the aircraft based in Europe, with markings becoming standardised throughout the fleet. This Mk. V of 445 Sqn serves as a definitive example of Europe-based Clunks post-1958.

[Litvyak]

The Mk. V also enjoyed some success on the export market, with three new countries joining the list of Canuck operators, and one returning customer: the Republic of China. Guatemala also joined the club after taking over 18 ex-RCAF birds in 1961.


The Guatemalan Air Force bought 18 ex-RCAF Mk. Vs in 1961, keeping them in service until 1980 (but by then there were only 6 in operation, the others having been cannibalised for spares).


Pleased with their experience with the Mk. III, the Republic of China Air Force ordered 97 Mk. Vs in 1955, placing the order the day after the RCAF placed their order for the variant. These replaced the Mk. IIIs in front-line service, and remained in service until 1963.


The Republic of Korea Air Force ordered 80 Mk. Vs in 1956, which served as front-line interceptors until 1962. They were stationed primarily around Seoul, Taegu and Pusan.


The Royal Saudi Air Force received 66 Canuck Mk. Vs in 1957. These were the RSAF's primary interceptors until 1966, after which they were relegated to reserve duties. 26 of them were sent to Canada in 1965 for reconstruction to CRF-100 specification, and these remained in operation until 1976.


The second export order for the Mk. V came from the Royal Thai Air Force, who ordered 30 in 1955. Thai Clunks remained in service until 1971.

So! That's all the CF-100s that are RW designs... next will come the versions unique to AltCan - the CEF-100, CRF-100 and CQF-100...

[Empty Handed]

Sweet Clunks! The Indian, Luftwaffe and RoKAF ones are firm favourites!

[Maverick]

Agree wholeheartedly, some really nice examples and some are definite 'double-take' material.

Regards,

John

[Litvyak]

Thanks for the compliments!!

Empty - I agree with you on the Luftwaffe one, it's one of my favourites of the lot, too. I'm also rather partial to the Israeli and Saudi ones. And soon we'll get to the fun ones, the ones with a bit of design changes... :)

[AGRA]

Clunktastic. Maybe one of the Israeli Clunks should be drawn with the Suez Operation ID strikes (black and yellow). The stipes that kind of disproved the British and French claims that there was no conspiracy with the Israelis (Duh!). Look forward to the additional marques.

[apophenia]

...Advanced Projects Group were working on a completely new design -- the P.450, a Mach 2 thrust-ejector canard fighter.

Whaaaat? Got any more info on this??

A little bit... I covered it (tangentially) at the very end of my Group Build piece. PM inbound.

[elmayerle]

Well, there's no CF-104 in AltCan, but perhaps with an Archer nose?

That would work quite nicely.

[Litvyak]

In 1960, Canadair rebuilt 414 Sqn's Mk. V Canucks to photo-reconnaissance aircraft.


When the aircraft were returned to 414 Sqn, they retained their old serial numbers, but were given a new designation: Canuck Mk. VR


With the introduction of the RCAF's new designation system in 1964, the Mk. VR was redesignated CRF-100 Canuck. The aircraft remained only a very short time as illustrated here, as the new flag was introduced the following year, bringing about a new roundel for the RCAF.


The new roundels were applied to 414 Sqn's CRF-100s through 1965, but otherwise their appearance remained unchanged. The scheme illustrated here was seen on 414's Photo-Clunks until 1975.


In 1975, a new paint scheme was introduced for photo-recce aircraft, and 414 Sqn's CRF-100s were repainted in accordance with the new painting diagram. They remained as illustrated here until the type's retirement in 1981.


Of all the foreign operators of the Canuck, only the Royal Saudi Air Force opted to return their aircraft to Canadair for conversion to CRF-100 specification. The RSAF sent 26 of their Canuck Mk. Vs for conversion in 1965, and they remained in service with the Saudis until 1976.

[Litvyak]

From 1956 a total of 14 Canucks were rebuilt to EW aircraft - four Mk. IVs (serials 18414, 18466, 18471 and 18473) and ten Mk. Vs (serials 18783-18786 and 18793-18798) underwent the conversion. These were then redesignated Mk. IVB and Mk. VB.


The newly-converted aircraft were assigned to the Electronic Warfare Unit, retaining their old serials.


In 1958 they underwent a minor change in the lettering, after the AB+3 system was replaced with the 4+RCAF scheme.


In 1960, the "Electric Clunks" of the EWU were repainted into the new standard scheme for electronic warfare aircraft, with the minor difference that these were overall white, instead of white over grey.


In the same year, 414 Sqn received a small number of Mk. VBs.


In 1964, they were redesignated CEF-100 Canuck under the new RCAF designation system.

[Litvyak]

An example of a CEF-100 belonging to the EWU, as they appeared briefly in 1964-65.


In 1965, 414 Sqn's CEF-100s received the new roundels. They remained looking like this until their transfer back to EWU in 1968.


EWU's aircraft also received the new roundels in 1965. After taking 414 Sqn's CEF-100s back in 1968, the EWU continued operating them until 1971, until they were finally retired. One survives on display at the Science & Technology Museum in Ottawa.

The Central Experimental & Proving Establishment operated a large number of Canucks over the years; many of these were rebuilt in various ways, some quite bizarre. The CE&PE used their own designation and numbering system for these experimental aircraft, all beginning with 'Q' (the reason for the use of this letter remains a mystery).


One of CEPE's more bizarre-looking modifications was Q13, which was a Mk. IV fitted with the nose of an Archer Mk. I. Built in 1960, it was initially used to test the Archer's radar system, but it remained operational until 1965 for various other experimental uses.


From 1965 on CEPE rebuilt a number of Canucks into unmanned drones. Most of these did not last beyond their maiden flight, as they were used for target practice in the development and testing of SAM systems for the Army...

[GTX_Admin]

Those recon birds look good.

[The Big Gimper]

In 1960, Canadair rebuilt 414 Sqn's Mk. V Canucks to photo-reconnaissance aircraft.


When the aircraft were returned to 414 Sqn, they retained their old serial numbers, but were given a new designation: Canuck Mk. VR

Nice.  Whose recce nose did you use?

[Litvyak]

Nice.  Whose recce nose did you use?

Thanks.

I made it up myself. :)

[The Big Gimper]

Nice.  Whose recce nose did you use?

Thanks.

I made it up myself. :)

Now I need to figure out how to scratch build it. You don't happen to have a 3D model of it, do you? :-)

[apophenia]

Yow! A cornucopia of Clunks ... go Litvyak  :)