Author Topic: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 6865 times)

Offline GTX_Admin

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Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« on: June 24, 2012, 03:16:04 AM »
Hi folks,

A place for your Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration.



Regards,

Greg

P.S. click on picture to get higher res version.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 03:16:36 AM »
To start with, how about a ground attack version or a stretched version?0
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 04:50:29 AM »
Its first half of 1950's.  US is scrambling to build Air Defense Command (ADC) to counter Russian bombers.
US built Natters are deployed along coasts and Canada-US border as quick response local area interceptors.  Taking off at 45deg on a launch rail.  Which could be a catapult or just a rail for rocket boosted take off.  Updated and/or stretched ?
Picture(s) or model(s) of Natters ready for launch or in flight in ADC markings would be cool.  RAF and RCAF also likely to operate them.
Bill
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 05:05:35 AM by finsrin »

Offline apophenia

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2012, 07:10:26 AM »
Nice idea Bill! So here's a Canadair Viper Mk.1A at RCAF Post Pond Inlet.
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Offline finsrin

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2012, 10:46:47 AM »
Thanks for going with idea.  Is looking the part.   :)
Hmm,,, maybe some zactly like that were secretly in service.   ;)
Bill

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Re: Natter "photo"
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2012, 11:53:33 PM »
GTX--I like the "photo" of a Natter intercepting B-17's. But wouldn't the booster rockets on the sides have been jettisoned once the craft was up to speed?? Seems like the DRAG of the boosters would inhibit its speed, and the boosters themselves would be irrelevant.
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Offline Frank3k

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2012, 02:01:01 AM »
The Canadian viper looks great! If I were to modernize the Natter, I would:

1 - Do a better job with the original canopy latch cover. Statistics show that decapitated pilots make surprisingly poor pilots.
2 - The whole bailing out business is insane, especially if you're intercepting Red bombers over Alaska or Canada. A landing skid and a detachable ventral tail would be better.
3 - Ditch the ventral tails altogether and give it a twin tail.
4 - Radar in the nose and a Genie under the fuselage. Or a Genie on each wingtip! That'll learn'em! (may need a bigger booster rocket)

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Re: Natter "photo"
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2012, 02:33:49 AM »
GTX--I like the "photo" of a Natter intercepting B-17's. But wouldn't the booster rockets on the sides have been jettisoned once the craft was up to speed?? Seems like the DRAG of the boosters would inhibit its speed, and the boosters themselves would be irrelevant.

Artistic licence... ;)
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Offline Dr. YoKai

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2012, 04:39:50 AM »
Delta wings-( assuming that Lippisch and Bachem were on speaking terms ), taking a page from
Frank's book, wingtip 75 or 105 RCLs, or ( heh ) an Enzian on each wingtip ( and dispense with
the solid fuel boosters altogether...) Likewise, the radar suggested for the Canadian version conjures
images of a two-seater nightfighter with Lichtenstein antennae...

As for a US built-version...we did borrow the idea, rushing a rail-launched Bell XSF-1* with wingtip mounted Tall Toms ( developed from the Tiny Tim ) into service in early '47 for the Roswell shoot-down.

Offline apophenia

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2012, 11:27:00 AM »
Frank: thanks for taking the Viper semi-seriously  :D

Agree on bailing out ... especially at 40 below  :o 

I hadn't thought of a Komet-style landing skid but that'd probably work better than wheels considering the state of most arctic landing strips. Perfect for snow too.

Twin tails would look good (a bit like Junkers' Julia).

I went with search radar (arctic = all-weather) but stuck with unguided rockets in Clunk-style tip pods. Somehow short-range point defence and nuclear warheads don't seem like an ideal combination  ;D
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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2012, 02:12:14 PM »

All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline upnorth

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2012, 03:59:01 PM »
If you reconfigured the tail unit to end plate vertical stabilizers, would it be physically possible to mate it to a Dornier 217? With fuselage mods to the Dornier of course. From what I've read, the gross weigh of a Natter is within the internal carriage limits of a 217.

If you air launched it, then the power of the booster rockets could be used to build a buffer space between the launch aircraft and the target aircraft and more of the main engine could be used in the actual attack after the boosters were jettisoned

On the same idea, you could make an unmanned version for launch from a Do-217 with a warhead in place of the rockets and pilot and use it as an air to ground weapon.

Either way, it would save resources and be a somewhat more secure way to deploy it than ground based launch sites which would be easy targets for ground attack aircraft.
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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2012, 02:55:36 AM »
I suspect the Do-217 would be at greater risk then from being shot down...but that aside, I love the ideas of air-launched Natters.  Maybe even mount a couple under the fuselage/wings of a He-177?
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2012, 03:37:10 AM »
The He-177 was my first thought, but then looking at the landing gear of the beast I think the only way you could get it to work from a fuselage mounting is if you could mount the Natter far enough back that it's wings and the inward retracting landing gear sets of the He-177 weren't interfering with each other.
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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2012, 04:12:28 AM »
I was thinking of semi-submerged in the bomb-bay.
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Offline upnorth

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2012, 04:35:01 AM »
As was I. However, in the meantime, I found that someone has attempted a model of a Natter toting He-177 before:

http://ipmslondon.ca/old%20site/ipmslondon.tripod.com/modelingarticles/id20.html

If you scroll down a bit, there is a picture of the Natter in place in the Grief's bomb bay that shows the landing gear/wing interference.

The modeler decided to make the inward retracting gear set jetisonable, but I wonder if the He-177's weight could have been supported on landing by the outward retracting set alone.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2012, 04:40:50 AM »
Hmmm...damn reality!!! :(

Will need to think about this a bit.

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Offline raafif

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Re: Bachem Ba 349 Natter Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2012, 10:04:12 AM »
looks to me as if he's removed the retract ability of the inner legs so they're permanently down -- he didn't add spats for better aerodynamics tho ::)