Author Topic: Opportunity Cost  (Read 18422 times)

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2012, 09:30:04 PM »
No I've got it for now. Thanks for the offer.

Offline Volkodav

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2012, 10:00:32 PM »
A bit of background to the topic, I am actually a fan of naval air power and believe that the RAN should have got into the game earlier, preferably pre WWII or even as early as the 1920s with a conversion of the battlecruiser HMAS Australia, and should still be operating carriers to this day.  However it struck me that the efforts expended in obtaining and operating a quite limited carrier capability for just over three decades eventually came to nothing with the retirement of HMAS Melbourne in 1982 without replacement.  The end result was an undersized, under equipped defence force with many of its most capable assets being difficult or near impossible to deploy due to a lack of enabling capabilities and force multipliers.

This led my to the devils advocate suggestion that failing to adequately support and sustain a real carrier capability would it not have been better to have never invested in it in the first place.  It was very interesting where the discussion progressed before AGRA suggested moving it here to start some real fun.

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2012, 01:54:10 AM »
A bit of background to the topic, I am actually a fan of naval air power and believe that the RAN should have got into the game earlier, preferably pre WWII or even as early as the 1920s with a conversion of the battlecruiser HMAS Australia, and should still be operating carriers to this day.


You should approve of Southern Sea Eagles - The Alternative RAN FAA then
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2012, 08:35:43 PM »
Hanging out for "The New Cruiser and Tartars for the Navy".  It wouldn't be a modified Tartar County by any chance?
Then again a Leahy or three would also be nice, perhaps serving as destroyer leaders to a flotillas of Darings and Rivers (or what ever the RAN ends up with at that point).  3 Flotillas each with a DLG, 2 DD and 4 FF/DE?  Maybe the DDs are replaced with CFA DDGs or possibably DDLs and the DEs with Type 21 Amazons.  Flash forward to today and the Leahy would have given way to improved Flight IIA Burkes and the DDLs to something similar to the F-100. 

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2012, 06:55:18 AM »
Hanging out for "The New Cruiser and Tartars for the Navy".  It wouldn't be a modified Tartar County by any chance?

You've seen the rough drawing of the Tartar County. Making reasonable quality drawings is what's holding me up. Bloody hard.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2012, 08:37:59 PM »
Waiting for Cyber hobby to do a 1/700 County to go with their Sheffield, Amazon and Invincible, wanted to kit bash a Tartar County since I first read about it in Navy Magazine years ago, the original (failed attempt) was with a 1/600 Airfix County but now who knows.

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2012, 04:11:11 PM »
Just another quick update that this project is still underway. The part 1 (WWII to Korea) is just over 5,000 words now and will need another 2-3000. The whole thing will be book sized!

For imagery I want to draw everything new and it’s a learning process. For part one this means the CAC Twin Mustang and Lithgow RAT .280 which are both licensed of real world things. Then there is the CAC Kamarga and the Austank Mk 5 which at least the former existed as a paper design. As a teaser here is the vertical projection of the major features of what will be the CAC Kamarga.



I think I've got the major lines looking good. This is actually a real world design and the only imagery source is a very rough, lores, three view line drawing. This design was the one submitted by CAC to the RAAF’s AC79 specification. The 36” radar dish is carried inside a three layer radome incorporated into the nose intake. This will reduce radar peak power to the sides by about 20% but the benefit is compared to other intake arrangements much less drag. The RAAF’s solution to the radar and performance conflicts was to remove the radar all together. Which sounds a bit ridiculous in an all-weather interceptor. But at least they then never built it unlike the Supermarine Scimitar!

Offline apophenia

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #32 on: June 25, 2012, 05:27:11 AM »
Good start on the CA-23 AGRA  :)
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2012, 10:47:21 AM »
Hmm, I'd have thought that something resembling the intake/radar installation on the Lightning might work just as well.

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2012, 11:19:52 AM »
Hmm, I'd have thought that something resembling the intake/radar installation on the Lightning might work just as well.

It was 1949 and no one had come up with that kind of intake design that was low drag for contemporary radars. To design an intake with a protruding radome for a 36” dish, transonic aircraft and first generation Avon engines would just add a lot more drag because the intake would have to be much wider.

The familiar intake of the Lightning wasn’t designed until 1952 and was a two shock design to enable supersonic speeds to Mach 2 (and BTW for a much smaller dish than 36"). In 1949 engines that could generate that thrust and supersonic aerodynamics weren’t yet on the drawing board.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2012, 12:08:24 PM »
Okay, I can follow that.  What they've got here is a best effort given the knowledge of the time.  Would a later version of the P.23 get such a radome/intake installation as knowledge and available engines both improve?

Offline AGRA

  • Took the opportunity to tease us with a RAAF F-82
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2012, 12:47:57 PM »
Okay, I can follow that.  What they've got here is a best effort given the knowledge of the time.  Would a later version of the P.23 get such a radome/intake installation as knowledge and available engines both improve?

It would be possible in terms of a Sabre to Super Sabre type evolution but the only thing on the early aircraft on the later one would be the name. But at the end of the day I don't think the minor loss of radar performance to the flanks is so bad. Especially since if the P.202 had gone ahead as the CA-23 and a fully funded development (as I propose in this Whif) it would be in squadron service by 1956. So the RAAF would have a two seat all weather interceptor in service that is much better than the Gloster Javelin.

Offline Volkodav

  • Counts rivits with his abacus...
  • Much older now...but procrastinating about it
Re: Opportunity Cost
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2012, 08:24:58 PM »
It just struck me that one of the potential changes resulting from Australia not acquiring carriers would be to long term continuation of the RAAF reserve fighter squadrons past the 1950s and their Mustangs, Vampires and Meteors.