Airliners: Alternate roles

[Daryl J.]

The early Boeing 737 becomes the first Poseidon in 1966.


And a question for the Boeing experts:  Why the 737 for the Poseidon and the Wedgetail, etc.?    Is it a particularly robust airframe when compared to its peers?  Was it originally designed with a military application as well should the need arise?   


Discuss.   

[Logan Hartke]

Well, the 737 airframe has been used by Indonesia for the MPA role since the 80s, so it's already been doing that role for about 30 years.  It's not too impractical to think that it could have been started earlier.  The 737 is--in some ways--an evolution of the 707 series that started with the Dash 80 back in 1954.  The Dash-80 was designed as dual-use, spawning the KC-135 and 707 at basically the same time, so considered that way, the 737 is an evolution of an airframe designed from the start with the possibility of military applications, yes.



So, could the 737 become the maritime patrol plane of the US Navy in the P-3 period of the Cold War starting in the 1960s?  To be honest, no, I don't think it could have.  I think it could have been an MPA much sooner than it did, but it wouldn't have been nearly as capable.  The 737 was initially designed for relatively fast, short-haul work at medium altitude.  The was basically the opposite of what a Cold War MPA needed to be.  An MPA in the 60s-90s needed to be able to fly low and slow for VERY long period of time.  The 737 could do exactly none of these things well.



Since then the 737 has gotten to be much larger, able to carry a lot more fuel and equipment.  It's really a beast of a plane compared to its 1960s forefather.  Jet engines are now a lot more fuel efficient and reliable.  In the 1960s, a twin-jet plane couldn't have cruised 1,000 miles out to sea for 6 hours.  Even if it could, the very real possibility of engine failure meant that you wouldn't want to attempt it.  That's no longer the case.

Sensors have gotten much better and submarines far less numerous since the 1990s, as well, placing a greater emphasis on surface patrol.  For both of these reasons, it's better to conduct these patrols at medium- to high-altitude rather than low-altitude.



You couldn't have really had a 737-based Poseidon in the 1960s or even the 1970s.  Even in the 1980s, such an aircraft would be inferior to the 20 year old P-3 then in service.  You COULD have had a 707-based aircraft, but it would have been much closer to a Nimrod than a P-3, in all likelihood.

I hope that helps!

Cheers,

Logan

[GTX_Admin]

I have often wondered about doing the 737 as a mini refueller KC-737

[elmayerle]

if memory serves me correctly (no guarantee as I'm three score plus in age), the 727 was designed with military applications in mind, too.  -chuckle- I could see that aft stairwell converted to house a drogue unit with another one under each wing.  I can see several interesting possibilities here.  If you didn't need the room, mate a 727-100 fuselage with a -200 wing and upgrade the engines (JT8D-200 series engines in the nacelles - same nacelles, possibly as the MD-80 series - and a cropped fan JT8D-200 in the center to match available volume and airflow constraints).

[GTX_Admin]

speaking of alternatively rolled airliners, i have a 1/72 dH Comet 4 kit that is going to be turned into an aerial refueller for the RAAF instead of the real world B707s.  I already have the B707 tanker conversion bits and decals.  Will be in high viz markings (similar to below) and set in a mid air diorama setting.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

if memory serves me correctly (no guarantee as I'm three score plus in age), the 727 was designed with military applications in mind, too.  -chuckle- I could see that aft stairwell converted to house a drogue unit with another one under each wing.  I can see several interesting possibilities here.  If you didn't need the room, mate a 727-100 fuselage with a -200 wing and upgrade the engines (JT8D-200 series engines in the nacelles - same nacelles, possibly as the MD-80 series - and a cropped fan JT8D-200 in the center to match available volume and airflow constraints).

Some U.S. Government entity actually did use the Boeing 727 to successfully deliver door bundles by parachute from the aft stairwell.  I have always considered the 727 as an ideal platform for covert insertion of forces by HALO or HAHO because of that aft stairwell feature.  If the stairs could be removed and a ramp installed it would make parachute delivery of small bundles quite convenient. 

[GTX_Admin]

What about a MPA based upon the Boeing 727?



or a missile firing 727:

[GTX_Admin]

DC8 based AWACS anyone?

[Logan Hartke]

Great pics, Greg!

Some U.S. Government entity actually did use the Boeing 727 to successfully deliver door bundles by parachute from the aft stairwell.  I have always considered the 727 as an ideal platform for covert insertion of forces by HALO or HAHO because of that aft stairwell feature.  If the stairs could be removed and a ramp installed it would make parachute delivery of small bundles quite convenient.

FedEx had one on display during an airshow here in Jacksonville a few years ago.  They had the aft stairwell down so that you could tour it and upon boarding the aircraft, I was welcomed by the pilot.  I pointed back to the stairs and said, "Ah, the infamous D. B. Cooper airstairs."  He said, "Yep.  You know, I actually flew that plane, years ago, after the whole D. B. Cooper incident."

Cheers,

Logan

[elmayerle]

How about a VC-22 conversion of the 727 in markings similar to Air Force One?  Designation comes from some second-hand 727s operated as C-22s.  Engine and other options for the VC-22 are open to several choices - perhaps the upgraded 727-100 I mentioned as the changes would give nice "hot and high" capability.

[Daryl J.]

FedEx had one on display during an airshow here in Jacksonville a few years ago.  They had the aft stairwell down so that you could tour it and upon boarding the aircraft, I was welcomed by the pilot.  I pointed back to the stairs and said, "Ah, the infamous D. B. Cooper airstairs."  He said, "Yep.  You know, I actually flew that plane, years ago, after the whole D. B. Cooper incident."

The cash recovered some years later on the banks of the Columbia River was found not two miles due west from our house.     :)

Does that mean the CIA dropped agents from the back end of 727's if the agents were equipped with glider wings ala James Bond?   

[kitnut617]

This is my Avro Atlantic which will be RCAF when finished.  It will be a tanker/transport with the added SAR search role (hence the radar under the fuselage)

[RussC]

Although not very different externally, there was a 747 ALCM launch platform concept in the 1970's. Makes you wonder if the KAL-007 shootdown didn't come from suspicion of jumbo jets in general.



Good Grief, not the parasite fighter thing again...



Good to see the NASA 747's will have some post-shuttle work.

[kitnut617]

Now that thing on top looks like what the Iranians were saying they shot down

[ChernayaAkula]

^ The shape is similar from this angle, but they're different beasts. The Iranians bagged an RQ-170 Sentinel. What sits on the 747 is a Boeing Phantom Ray (developed from the X-45C), a much bigger beast.
Would be cool if they could air-launch it from the 747! 

[Daryl J.]

At 4,000 hp/side, the Convair 580 could be put to use.   Ground attack?

[finsrin]

At 4,000 hp/side, the Convair 580 could be put to use.   Ground attack?

Yes, I like it.  And add J85 pods as on a C-123.

[raafif]

with so many airliners being retired as no longer profitable ....

[elmayerle]

with so many airliners being retired as no longer profitable ....

Hmm, perhaps an articulated bus made from a 707 or DC-8 fuselage?

[GTX_Admin]

What about some of the twin engined airliners such as A320s or B737s turned into dedicated medium sized bombers?  Make use of all the passenger/cargo space for weapons, sensors, fuel.  Maybe keep the standard cockpit or even give it a tandem seat arrangement.  Maybe even give it some sort of defensive armament?  The end result would be a relatively low cost, though potentially very capable modern day equivalent to the medium bombers of WWII.  Sure, it won't be stealthy and would probably be easy meat for any serious fighter opposition but since when should we let reality get in the way...

[RussC]

with so many airliners being retired as no longer profitable ....

Or go to sea













This one is a restaurant called Solo's in Colorado Springs

[raafif]

beds for the pilots ??  Why should they get better accomodation than the passengers !

Oh, wait .... its the new prone-pilot version for higher-G take-offs

[GTX_Admin]

Not so much a different role but rather a variation from the normal:  what about a turboprop B737 or B747?

[elmayerle]

Not so much a different role but rather a variation from the normal:  what about a turboprop B737 or B747?

Or with propfans?

[jcf]

I've eaten at Solos (food is so-so, atmosphere is a kick), and I have pics of Gail in the pilot's seat.

[GTX_Admin]

Not so much a different role but rather a variation from the normal:  what about a turboprop B737 or B747?

Or with propfans?

Well, now your heading into 7J7 territory:

[Daryl J.]

Tu-134.     French executive transport.     

USAF service with engines off an A-10 Warthog.   

[Daryl J.]

Tu-134 ''Wedgetail"

[GTX_Admin]

Tu-134 ''Wedgetail"

I see your Tu-134 ''Wedgetail" and raise you with an A340 Wedgetail..kits all purchased, just lacking the appropriate decals.

[Daryl J.]

That'd be cool.

I just like the rough-field capabilities of Tupolev aircraft vs. the more fragile other brands.   Perhaps that's why I bought a Land Rover instead of a different SUV....... 

[GTX_Admin]

Boeing E-10:

[elmayerle]

::snicker:: E-10 re-born as an EC-46 or EKC-46?

[GTX_Admin]

Not so much different role but rather a different idea:  what if the RR Pegasus were used for some airliners?  For example, what if the HP Herald (see below) were given a pair instead of the RR Darts as part of a bid to keep it in service longer?



Or perhaps the HS/British Aerospace 146 could have had a pair instead of its 4 engines:

[elmayerle]

Not so much different role but rather a different idea:  what if the RR Pegasus were used for some airliners?  For example, what if the HP Herald (see below) were given a pair instead of the RR Darts as part of a bid to keep it in service longer?



Or perhaps the HS/British Aerospace 146 could have had a pair instead of its 4 engines:

Hmm, in four-poster form or as a "straight-thru" turbofan?  The first would make for some interesting STOL capability while the second could make for attractive fuel burn in the same operations the aircraft are currently used in.

[GTX_Admin]

I was primarily thinking as a four-poster form though the second option would be interesting too.

[Rickshaw]

Would a straight through Pegasus still be a Pegasus?   You'd have to undertake a massive redesign to make it a straight through engine, that it would essentially become a new engine.   All those auxiliary gearboxes, the four exhausts, etc, would all need to go.

[kitnut617]

I was primarily thinking as a four-poster form though the second option would be interesting too.

You mean like this --- (see below)

I think I'll do some castings before I finish it, 'cause I like your idea ---

An airliner would have to have some pretty good sound insulation though  -----------

[elmayerle]

Would a straight through Pegasus still be a Pegasus?   You'd have to undertake a massive redesign to make it a straight through engine, that it would essentially become a new engine.   All those auxiliary gearboxes, the four exhausts, etc, would all need to go.

Well, that's a good question.  Bristol did look at a hydrogen-burning straight-thru variant as an air-breathing engine for ferrying the space shuttle.   There's an excellent drawing in Pegasus: The Heart of the Harrier.  It wouldn't be that difficult to adapt to Jet-A.

[GTX_Admin]

The core engine would still be there though and thus able to provide the basis.  Another option might be a 3 poster variety with twin front nozzles and a single nozzle at the rear.

[GTX_Admin]

Real World patents:





Air based vertical launch ballistic missile defense 7540227

Air-based vertical launch ballistic missile defense 7849778

[Volkodav]

There was a tactical transport intended to support the harriers in the RAF that had a pair of four poster Pegasus plus lift jets in wing tip pods.

[GTX_Admin]

There was a tactical transport intended to support the harriers in the RAF that had a pair of four poster Pegasus plus lift jets in wing tip pods.

There were quite a few like that, ranging from the Do-31 to the HS(AW).681:

[The Big Gimper]

YS-11ES UWSISC (You-whisks)

From K-Tel there was first AWACS ...

.... now there is UWSICS (U-Whisks)

You too can now "whisks" away those nasty ships and submarines!

Underwater Warning Submarine/Surface Identification and Control System

Direct from the overly caffeinated mind of Carl.

I found the AWACS dome in the pile of disorganized stuff (and a big pile that it is). Missing the struts so what to do with it?

• AWACS dome in hand. Missing the struts so what to do with it? Think! Check!
• Looking at the Bandai YS-11. Still no idea what to do with it. Check!
• How about upside down is good. Check!
• Need an A/C with good ground clearance. Maybe. See #2 above. Check!
• YS-11? Ground clearance? Could be! Check!
• Get the JLC saw. Shorten the pylon. Check!
• Masking tape. Check!
• Assemble. Check!

And so here we have the YS-11ES.  I will add a bigger nose and satellite antenna dome on top.
New props etc. Look up YS-11EA .
Have not determined yet which air forces used them.


IMG-2930 by Big Gimper, on Flickr


IMG-2931 by Big Gimper, on Flickr


IMG-2932 by Big Gimper, on Flickr


IMG-2933 by Big Gimper, on Flickr

[Buzzbomb]

... and that is how it happens.

Look a a pile of bits and then it all starts to gel together to get some inspiration to move forward to:-
a. Decrease the pile
b. Get a model happening

Won a 1/72 A Model Ilyushin Il-18 Airliner in a raffle once many years back, way out of my interest zone, so it sat, lost, ignored and abandoned.
Then I stumbled across an image of the Il-20 Coot Elint aircraft, which used the Il-18 as a base.. so away we went. I now have a Coot in my aircraft collection.

[upnorth]

I often wonder how a 757 would have fared in military roles.

Given how many were converted to freighters, it's certainly a robust frame.

Could it have done AWACS or MPA work? Maybe could take a tanker conversion?

[The Big Gimper]

Probably much better than in the "cattle car", I mean passenger configuration. I hate the 757!

[upnorth]

Probably much better than in the "cattle car", I mean passenger configuration. I hate the 757!

That sounds about right for what I've heard of the 757. By most accounts it's in the "Pilot's dream, but passengers' nightmare" category.

[GTX_Admin]

I often wonder how a 757 would have fared in military roles.

Given how many were converted to freighters, it's certainly a robust frame.

Could it have done AWACS or MPA work? Maybe could take a tanker conversion?

Well the RNZAF has flown 757s for many years:




And there is the C-32:



And the similar Tu204/214 was considered as a MPA years ago and indeed there is the Tu-214R:



One could probably fit a Erieye radar system to create a AEW&C variant:



Lastly, should we mention the Boeing 757 200 Catfish?

[GTX_Admin]

YS-11ES UWSISC (You-whisks)

Kind of channelling the PB-1W or Avro Shackleton AEW.2 there: