M113 Family of Vehicles

[Kerick]

IIRC I heard that another reason the gun ports didn't last was that it was nearly impossible to aim accurately from the moving vehicle. Better to have an accurate stabilized turret rather than "spray and pray".

[Gingie]

not to mention 4-6 crunchies rockin&rollin full auto is going to create a lot of gunsmoke inside the crew compartment.

[Rickshaw]

Both good points.

I've realised there is a flaw in the logic behind these sorts of vehicles operating in NBC environments.  If it is too contaminated for the troops onboard to dismount and operate as conventional infantrymen, what does that mean about how the enemy on the objective are surviving?

The Germans used Uzi SMGs from the Marder firing ports.  The Soviets, AKM-47s from the BMP-1, etc.  The US developed a specialised version of the M16, the M213, which was supposedly retired when they sealed the firing ports but I remember reports of them resurfacing as dismount weapons for AFV crew in OIF.

[Old Wombat]

Which is probably not a bad idea, given their compact size & relatively good hitting power compared to 9mm weapons.

[Rickshaw]

Hmmm….

IIRC that is a mine clearing system.

This has been nagging me and so I went and had a look at Hunnicutt's book dealing with M113.  I was mistaken.  It is actually the XM1101, a saturation smoke screening vehicle.  It relied primarily on a smoke exhaust (which isn't visible in the picture) and intended to use the rockets to thicken up the screen.  Two prototypes were built but it wasn't produced.

[GTX_Admin]

From 2009:  The Italian company of ARIS SpA (Applicazioni Rielaborazioni Impianti Speciali) has developed, as a private venture, a special kit to improve the amphibious capability of the M113 series full-tracked armoured personnel carrier. ARIS has developed an oceanic kit that transforms the M113 APC in a fully Amphibious Landing Vehicle, named ARISGATOR. Main parts of navigation kit are: the bow, to improve M113 floating ability and hydrodynamic penetration, the sterns incorporating two separate controlled propellers that allow high manoeuvrability in navigation up to a complete spin on Arisgator vertical axis. During navigation, the original air intake system is automatically excluded and a snorkel system on the top of the vehicle is activated. In this configuration, ARISGATOR is able to carry safely eight fully equipped soldiers plus the driver. ARISGATOR can safely navigate in open sea even in considerable rough conditions, showing a very low profile above the water and maintaining the same performance on land as the original M113 APC.








And someone has already modelled one:

[GTX_Admin]

Not so much a variant but rather a different weapon mount:  M113 upgraded armored personnel carrier with Samson weapon station:

[Old Wombat]

Does anyone do the Samson as a (good) upgrade/mod kit in 1/35?

I can think of some uses for it!

[Rickshaw]

I wonder what that little flipped up panel at the rear left of the Samson is in the firing picture?  Looks almost like a small solar power panel.

[dy031101]

When was the very first stretched M113 developed?  I've been wondering under what kind of circumstance an army could have gone straight for the stretched M113 as the primary infantry carrier......

[Rickshaw]

When was the very first stretched M113 developed?  I've been wondering under what kind of circumstance an army could have gone straight for the stretched M113 as the primary infantry carrier......

Hunnicutt discusses the M113a1e3 the first "stretched" M113 on p.106-7 in his book on the Bradley.  However, he doesn't mention any dates.  I suspect though, from the use of the splinter camouflage (who's designation I can't remember at the moment) its the mid-late 1970s.   I don't think they would have reached the need for a stretch (and there were even longer ones proposed BTW, with 7 road wheels) without first passing through the intermediate stage.  Remember, when the M113 was introduced, it was considered quite roomy and was adopted because the previous vehicles had been considered too big.  It wasn't until the proliferation of AT missiles and other equipment that needed to be carried by the infantry section that it started getting cramped.

[Old Wombat]

I wonder what that little flipped up panel at the rear left of the Samson is in the firing picture?  Looks almost like a small solar power panel.

I'm pretty sure it's just the rear hatch of the launcher, opened to allow the egress of exhaust gasses from the missile launch.

(You can still see dust disturbed by the launch above the top deck behind the RWS.)

[Rickshaw]

Yes, you could be right, Guy.  I'd have thought some pop out panels would be easier for that.

[Old Wombat]

Yes, you could be right, Guy.  I'd have thought some pop out panels would be easier for that.

Looks like the missiles are loaded into the launcher separately, rather than as boxed units, so the blow-out panels would have to be replaced for each firing, so the hatches are probably better in that respect. However, for a small 2-missile over-&-under system like that I would have thought a side-flip hatch would be better/easier (which is what the front hatch seems to be) but I guess the designers had their reasons.

Just for fun, here's another pic of a Spike being fired.



Interestingly, the Pandur seems to have an alternate side-by-side version.

[GTX_Admin]

Does anyone do the Samson as a (good) upgrade/mod kit in 1/35?

I can think of some uses for it!

There is this one of the RCWS-30:

[Gingie]

WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?

[Rickshaw]

WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?

Does anybody know where to purchase it?

[dy031101]

I know the idea of arming M113 with recoilless rifles has been mentioned a few times...... but what would the expert choice be if it's auto-loading v.s. having two guns?

[Rickshaw]

I know the idea of arming M113 with recoilless rifles has been mentioned a few times...... but what would the expert choice be if it's auto-loading v.s. having two guns?

Horses for course, really.  The T114 turret with the 105mm auto-loading Rcl. appears a bit overly complex, a problem bequeathed to it by the nature of US recoilless rifles, with the need to reload the weapon by sliding the entire barrel forwards to allow the empty case ejected and the next round to be loaded.  The British 120mm auto-loading Rcl. system, based around a revolver's rotating cylinder is much simpler.  The US system apparently performed well in tests though but it must be noted it was the Germans in the end who have fielded auto-loading recoilless cannon.   The multi-tube 106mm Rcl. is simpler and more reliable and the mount easier to maintain.  I'd suggest it depends on your resources and preferences.   The Ontos was simple and reliable and during the battle for Hue, well appreciated by the Marines which were supported by them.

[GTX_Admin]

WANT!

Anyone got pics of it?

Does anybody know where to purchase it?

If you contact Lumir directly using the email address on the picture you should get assistance.  Speaking of which, he just emailed me with some exciting news re a potential future kit...

[Rickshaw]

Turkish AVCS:







In following phase of SPAAg program, It was evaluated that Backfire of 30mm twin barrel and huge size of SPAAG turret integrated on ACV-S will both affect the mobility of AKINCI at rough terrains, and decrease the accuracy of SPAAG turret against aerial targets so It suddenly became a MUST to support this program:

[Source]

[GTX_Admin]

"A turret armed with the Royal Ordnance 120mm breech loading mortar was installed experimentally on an M113A2 in 1987. This carrier was fitted with flotation cells on the sides and a new high displacement trim vane to compensate for the increased weight. The external fuel tanks also were installed." (Hunnicutt, Bradley):

[GTX_Admin]

M113 with vertical launched FOG-M missiles.

[LemonJello]

M113 with vertical launched FOG-M missiles.

I have the inclination to do something like this with an AAV-7...someday.

[Volkodav]

I remember seeing a photo of an AAAV-7 with its troop compartment filled with rockets with fuel air explosive warheads for a mine clearing trial, it looked quite impressive.

Back onto the M-113, how about either a Tilly, a Tracked Rapier, Chapparell or the flat bed version of the Australian AS4 updated version with a Sea RAM mount?  It just came to mind while I was typing the above.

The chain of thought was an artists impression of a conceptual Israeli truck based air defence vehicle incorporating a Phalanx between the axles and a VLS for 8 Barak missiles behind the rear axle which made me think of Sea RAM instead of Phalanx and then because this is the M-113 thread I thought why not.