Author Topic: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 136930 times)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #100 on: August 11, 2013, 09:36:57 PM »
First impression is incease tank size to be pontoons for Skyhawk seaplane.


Skyhawks with stuck lanfing gear have actually been successfully landed (on land) on those wing tanks, so that's not an idea without merit!



And this is only on the little ones: somebody put one down on the big ones and didn't even bang the nose, but I can't find the pics... This one is on big tanks but has crucnhed them harder than the one I recall seeing:



This all leads to an interesting thought: you know that rough-field Scooter the US Army played with that had twin main wheels in ugly, draggy fairings? Well how about a re-engineered Skyhawk with permanently fitted "landing beams" in the drop tank positions? The top half of each beam would sit conformally under the wing, and the bottom half, carrying a line of small wheels in it, would retract up against it. The former undercarriage bays could be turned into integral tankage (mains) and avionics (nose) and although you'd lose the two wing hardpoints, you'd be able to put a lot more hardware under the fuselage.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #101 on: August 11, 2013, 09:39:00 PM »
I like the idea of a NASA testbed aircraft and if you're using lift engines, I'd be tempted to go with the conformal tanks as the underwing tanks are going to catch quite a thermal load close to the ground.  On the other hand, replace the J52 with a suitably more powerful core and use two shaft-driven liftfans sized to fit that area (say, a flying technology testbed for the X-35/F-35 effort).

How about replacing the undercarriage doors with big, inward-opening panels that act like LIDs, capturing the refected up-thrust from the ground and protecting the underwing stores at the same time?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #102 on: August 11, 2013, 09:40:43 PM »


From Vatche Mitilian, photo and text concerning Douglas proposal for Canada.
 The CA-4F was a proposed two seat attack variant based upon the A-4F. It would have had seven hardpoints, and although it resembled the OA-4M, the CA-4F would have had a conformal fuel tank on top where the OA-4M had the avionics "hump".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SEP 1964:
 Story written shortly after the Tonkin Gulf Incident 02 AUG 1964, source unknown.
 
HMCS Bonaventure, a 19,000 ton light fleet Aircraft Carrier (British Majestic Class), and also know as "The Bonnie" and "Club 22", was Canada's last Aircraft carrier. Commissioned in 1957, the "Bonaventure" was configured with an angled flight deck and a steam catapult. Her Air Wing flew F2H-3 "Banshees", Grumman CS-2F "Trackers" and "Sea King" helicopters.
 VF-870 and 871 flew the "Banshee" for fleet air defense.
 HMCS Bonaventure was de-commissioned in 1970.
 Images above from W. Mutza.
 
Another source for information on the RCN consideration of the Skyhawk follows:
 HMCS Bonaventure Operations 1964:
 "After leaving Cyprus, the ship began to operate aircraft enroute Norfolk, Virginia with brief stops at Malta and Gibraltar. Canada, at this time, was interested in a replacement for the F2H-3 BANSHEEs and were looking at the Douglas A4E SKYHAWK and the Ling-Temco-Vought A-7 CORSAIR II with a minor modification was useable. The Douglas/USN people hoped that they could also sell the A4E to the Indian Navy but after flight deck trials, landing trials etc all of which were most successful and despite the fact that BONAVENTURE could have carried and operated 25 of these aircraft no purchase was made of the A4E. But the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) bought and successfully operated A4E’s off a sister ship of the BONAVENTURE. (The Canadian Armed Forces later had an opportunity to buy A4E’s but opted to build the Northrop/Canadair CF 5A/B in Canada instead)."
 Quoted from the web site "Canadian Aviation Museum" http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/pdf/Carriers.PDF
 




From Here : http://a4skyhawk.org/content/canada-skyhawk-proposal
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline Geoff

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #103 on: August 12, 2013, 03:18:46 AM »
I have heard of an idea where the electronics are miniaturised so the "hump" isn't needed for them and is replaced by a fuel tank. I did a Kiwi Navy one some time back

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2013, 09:40:14 AM »
If it's going to be a NASA test bed, rather than a service aircraft, why not just stretch it? Put a plug in behind the cockpit with lift fans/engines*, and a plug behind the engine core that puts a clang-box thrust deflector in the jet pipe. Have the bottom/inside surface of the wing tanks covered with that "pebble-dash" coating they put on USN bombs to make them more fire-resistant. It'd be draggy as hell, but it's only a testbed, right?

* You could used the lift fans/nozzles that you liberated when making an ArtModel MiG-23PD non-STOL, of course.... >:D
Considering that I'm doing one such, with canards "liberated" from a Kfir kit and modified in plan to look more "Mikoyan", that's not an impossibility.

Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #105 on: August 22, 2013, 06:54:01 AM »
Quick question for you Scooter nuts; which version(s) were nuclear capable?  Were they capable from the outset or did they have to wait?  Did we export any nuclear capable versions?  I highly doubt we did but I want to make sure.
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #106 on: August 22, 2013, 07:49:30 AM »
Quick question for you Scooter nuts; which version(s) were nuclear capable?  Were they capable from the outset or did they have to wait?  Did we export any nuclear capable versions?  I highly doubt we did but I want to make sure.
All were nuclear capable.  In the case of the A-4 and other aircraft all that was required was a stores pylon that had 14.0" or 30.0" suspension lugs and the ability to hang the store.  Nothing special involved since the later weapons all had integral cores or mechanisms that allowed the core to be inserted into the weapon in flight without human involvement.  The ability to deliver the weapon was determined by the special stores panel in the cockpit that enabled arming the weapon and the ability to release the weapon in the desired delivery mode (high altitude drop, LABS, or lay down).
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #107 on: August 22, 2013, 07:52:10 AM »
"Nuclear capable" is largely a matter of a few black boxes and a bit of wiring if you've got enough weight capacity for the actual nuke. My understanding is that all USN Skyhawks were nuclear capable right from the start. I imagine that classified black boxes were removed from export aircraft, but I don't know the details.
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #108 on: August 22, 2013, 09:54:15 AM »
OK cool!  Thanks guys!

One FAA A-4C with a Red Beard coming up  8)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #109 on: August 23, 2013, 12:08:20 AM »
Looked at the Hasegawa TA-4J's extended fuselage and thought of converting it to a long-fuselage single seater.     :)
kwyxdxLg5T

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #110 on: August 23, 2013, 01:33:59 AM »
Looked at the Hasegawa TA-4J's extended fuselage and thought of converting it to a long-fuselage single seater.     :)
I've got one of their TA-4/A-4 "Blue Angels" kits with the same intention.  Thinking of the single cockpit where the aft cockpit is on the two seater and a larger avionics bay in front of it.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #111 on: August 23, 2013, 01:54:35 AM »
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.   
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #112 on: August 23, 2013, 01:58:07 AM »
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.

that works as well.  I'm going more for avionics without the "bump" than extra fuel.  Both are valid approaches and I'll look forward to seeing your variation.

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #113 on: August 23, 2013, 03:27:52 PM »
My idea:  Pilot forward, fuel aft.  Side contour similar to single seater.    Drop tank midline, then spurious munitions on the wings.

that works as well.  I'm going more for avionics without the "bump" than extra fuel.  Both are valid approaches and I'll look forward to seeing your variation.

You could, also, set your pilot forward (giving him better forward visibility) & put the avionics behind him.

:)

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #114 on: August 27, 2013, 06:30:00 AM »
One FAA A-4C with a Red Beard coming up  8)

Gentlemen, question(s) for you Scooter and/or British aircraft nuts.  If the FAA were to acquire A-4s in the 1950's what changes would they have made to them, specifically, external changes IE antennae, aerials, sensors, fittings, etc...  I'm not all that familiar with the eccentricities of British aircraft of the era.  I want the FAA Scooter to be believable and not just an A-4 in a different pain scheme  ;)
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

"Helos don't fly.  They vibrate so violently that the ground rejects them."  -Tom Clancy

"If all else fails, call in an air strike."  -Anonymous

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #115 on: August 27, 2013, 08:46:30 AM »
Further to Cliffy's question, what we're considering is basically an A-4C, so it'll have a small radar (probably the original US one) in the nose, and no spine hump.
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #116 on: August 27, 2013, 08:54:41 AM »
Since the J65 is a license-built Sapphire, would FAA A-4C's use that or an Avon for compatibility with the Sea Vixen and Scimitar?  Would it make any external difference?

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #117 on: August 27, 2013, 09:50:35 AM »
Heh - good spot. They start out intending to use Sapphires but by the time they're being built, the  Avon 200-series with Sapphire-derived mods is out, so they end up with non-afterburning Avons for compatibility as you suggest. Since the Avon and the Sapphire were installationally interchangeable in several platforms, I don't think there'd be any external differences for the Skyhawk.
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"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #118 on: August 27, 2013, 09:55:32 AM »
Later version/rebuild with dry 300 series Avons and an equipment upgrade?  I could see a LRMTS being fitted later on, very similar to what was fitted to first generation Harriers.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #119 on: August 27, 2013, 10:06:35 AM »
Well in this case, the main purpose of the A-4s is chucking Red Beards at Sverdlovs (Buccaneer substitute for small carriers, basically), and the time-frame is 1958 to 1975, when they get replaced by something else, so it's really an early 1960s anti-ship/tactical nuclear avionics fit that we're looking at.

Question: I know the A-4C had an AN/APG-53A radar, but what was this set's actual capability? Was it just a ranging set or did it have a surface search function?
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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #120 on: August 27, 2013, 10:31:27 AM »
Here's some food for thought, as well as some discussion on radar possibilities:

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k
"Radials growl, inlines purr, jets blow!"  -Anonymous

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #121 on: August 27, 2013, 10:35:06 AM »
From the description on Wikipedia as a fire control radar, I would presume ranging only.  It's successor, from the A-4E on, the AN/APQ-145 did have a mapping mode which I'd reckon could include sea search.

As upgraded A-4's came into FAA service, I could see older ones being converted to a tactical role with the LRMTS.  I could also see the wings being remanufactured to add the outboard hardpoints of later models (much as was done with the A-4PTM and A-4S).  I'm thinking that you'd need to reduce the outboard sweep to also add wingtip Sidewinder, or equivalent, rails and I'm just sure what that'd do to the aerodynamics and handling.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 11:42:34 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #122 on: August 27, 2013, 07:40:39 PM »
Here's some food for thought, as well as some discussion on radar possibilities:

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/16348#.UhwOrz-eY9k


From there, this sounds promising:

Quote
The AN/APG-53A is well described – something like a half dozen pages of descriptions and illustrations.

The radar is small, but of conventional configuration – ie nose radome mounted dish, with electronics between the dish and the forward firewall. That in itself is a big thing, its successor in the A4M is a downward looking flat plate, the nose position going to a laser seeker. The equivalent in the RAAF Mirages, of roughly the same vintage, was also downward looking.

The dish scans in azimuth, but only +10 up, and a slightly higher range down.

It has three modes, search, with a 40nm range and two range scales on the display, terrain avoidance – scans the terrain and presents a visual image for all weather navigation, and bomb aiming. It also projects the TV display from the Bulpup, if you’re a bulpup kind of A4.


"Search with a 40nm range" sounds good enough to me: I think we stick with the AN/APG-53A.

"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #123 on: August 27, 2013, 07:50:01 PM »
As upgraded A-4's came into FAA service, I could see older ones being converted to a tactical role with the LRMTS.  I could also see the wings being remanufactured to add the outboard hardpoints of later models (much as was done with the A-4PTM and A-4S).  I'm thinking that you'd need to reduce the outboard sweep to also add wingtip Sidewinder, or equivalent, rails and I'm just sure what that'd do to the aerodynamics and handling.

In my scenario:

The RN becomes dissatisfied with having two specialised aircraft on it's small carrier decks and replaces both the Skyhawks and the fighters with a multi-role type in the mid-1970s. It's not a big fleet (probably under 100 aircraft to start with and then minus losses), but you might see them selling it wholesale to either the RAF (the timing would be about right for the boost in CAS/BAI types required by NATO's new Flexible Response strategy), or another land or sea operator.

The RN Skyhawks have five pylons from the start: it's the RN requirement for flexibility that actually drives this mod through earlier than IRL.

The problem with wingtip Sidewinders is that the Skyhawk's wing doesn't fold. That might not be an issue on a USN supercarrier, but anyone operating from 35,000 tonner will be cursing that fact that they can't squeeze a few more airframes on-board, in fact I've even considered having the RN insist on folding wings (much to Ed H's annoyance... ;) ).
 
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"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #124 on: August 27, 2013, 07:59:43 PM »
You were saying... ;)

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