Author Topic: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 157758 times)

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2012, 10:39:04 AM »
start with something like this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_A-4AR_Fightinghawk

The A-4Kahu had a similar, but not identical equipment fit (different RHAW gear for one thing).  Still, either would be a good basis to start from.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2012, 10:41:40 AM »
Hmm, a dedicated air defense version would need a decent radar.  Prior to the 1970s, what could be fitted would likely be something like that fitted to the F11F-1 or some of Emerson's designs on the various F-5 variants; you'd really need to get into the late-1970s to get fairly capable radars for that small a radome (the F-20's AN/APG-67 comes to mind).  Personally, I'd like to see a combination of the A-4Kahu systems fit with a dry RM-12 or F414 engine fit based on what Singapore did with the F404 and arm it with a mix of Python-4 and Darter missiles.

That would make sense for a '80s/'90s version.  I was really thinking something more for the '60s/'70s though.  Maybe give it the AN/APQ-153 radar from the F-5E? Arm it with IR and SARH AIM-9s?
That would work, though you might look at upgrading the SARH AIM-9s to a later version Sidewinder airframe.  For the time period, the engines remain as I suggested, though I wonder how a dry J79 would fare.

Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2013, 07:50:54 AM »
Because, contrary to popular belief, there just aren't enough canard-equipped aircraft to go around.  ;)
The first one is "from the box", so to speak, while the second one has a greater chord.


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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2013, 07:55:26 AM »
 :)
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Offline Scooterman

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2013, 10:58:56 AM »
Those look like mini-Viggens!   :)

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2013, 01:22:20 AM »
Only 4 EA-4F's appear to have been built.   Was there a foreign market for them in smaller air forces?
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2013, 02:10:53 AM »
How about converting one to an RAF-style side-by-side two-seater using Hunter T.7 parts?
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2013, 03:54:59 AM »
Only 4 EA-4F's appear to have been built.   Was there a foreign market for them in smaller air forces?


I suppose given their training focus they weren't ever really considered.  Mind you a dedicated EA-4 with say a pair of AN/ALQ-99 pods (see below) might be interesting to see:




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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2013, 04:00:11 AM »
Quote
I suppose given their training focus they weren't ever really considered.  Mind you a dedicated EA-4 with say a pair of AN/ALQ-99 pods (see below) might be interesting to see:


That's right where I was going with the TA-4F and was presuming the aircraft would require two crew.   If only one, however, is needed...... :)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 05:36:42 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2013, 05:17:14 AM »
Daryl mentions EA-4F and I am thinking immediately of a Skyhawk in markings for the Spanish Navy which is not such a bad idea when you think about it.  Spanish Navy is given an Essex class CV to support their NATO commitment. 
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2013, 05:27:40 AM »
Definitely agree re two seater.  Maybe something based on the OA-4M with lots of bumps etc...

DAMN YOU Daryl!!!  Now I have this urge to do this.... >:D
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Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2013, 05:30:19 AM »
 ;D

Go for it! 

---------------------------------


Maybe the Skyhawk sometime should be the subject of a year long, single type spurious theme build seeing how everyone here seems to be rather the busy type.

« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 05:35:31 AM by Daryl J. »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2013, 08:14:01 AM »
And what might be considered a Scooter heresy:  alternate wing planforms.  Swept, scimitar, kinked delta, etc.

The shoulder-mounted intakes are rather remeniscent of the L-39 Albatross so how about an A-4 with straight tapered wings and tip tanks? Ouragan wings might be about the right size and shape. For justification, how about giving it lots of high-lift devices, rough-field gear and making it an Army CAS version?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:15:48 AM by Weaver »
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2013, 10:02:45 AM »
Interesting...maybe we need some drawings.
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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2013, 03:34:33 PM »
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...
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Offline M.A.D

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 05:55:04 PM »
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Nice!! Although an F404 would probably suffice - lighter and smaller!!

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 06:01:41 PM »
Dimensionally they are essentially identical.  The F414 weighs a little more but it's increased thrust compensates for this IMHO.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 08:01:58 PM »
Just a silly thought: since the A-4's nickname is the Scooter, how about doing one up like a Mod's Vespa, with a few dozen mirrors, lights, badges and mascots and a Who or soul-music inspired custom paint job?  ;D



from here: http://www.scooterhype.com/2012/05/30/top-10-classic-scooter-modifications/
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2013, 11:03:51 AM »
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2013, 11:34:26 AM »
Killer A-4X with updated AESA radar, ASRAAM, CUDA, Brimstone, HMD, F414...

Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

Longer and considerably greater diameter.

Offline AGRA

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2013, 02:31:19 PM »
Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

What’s inside the radome is just the antenna. Most of the radar is in black boxes behind it. In the case of the Kahu upgrade they used the F-16’s APG-66 radar but to fit the outer mould line of the Skyhawk they reduced the size of the antenna. In the case of the FA-2 upgrade of the Sea Harrier being that the OEM was on hand and the RN had a lot more funds and resources to play with than the RNZAF they decided to change the outer mould line of the aircraft with a bulbous radome to accommodate the increased size of the ideal antenna for Blue Vixen over the previous Blue Fox. While this enabled improved performance it increased risk by potentially disturbing the aircraft’s aerodynamics and the air flow to the intakes. This was a risk the RNZAF was unwilling to take so accepted a decreased antenna size to not change the Skyhawk’s aerodynamics.

The Skyhawk could be fitted with the Blue Vixen radar but like the APG-66 it would entail a reduction in antenna size. This will in turn reduce the antenna gain of the radar and therefore sensitivity and range. Blue Vixen performance was closely tied to the AIM-120A missile and reducing the antenna gain could impact AMRAAM engagement range. However if the objective of putting Blue Vixen in Skyhawks was to obtain an all-important two seat mission systems trainer (RN used Hunters for this role) then you could still impart skills in systems operations but not get the most out of tactical training.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2013, 05:38:49 PM »
How about an Italian A-4M instead of the AMX?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2013, 12:27:32 AM »
Curiosity: would the existing radome of the A-4K be able to accommodate the Blue Vixen radar, or would it need to be replaced by, say, a lengthened one?

What’s inside the radome is just the antenna. Most of the radar is in black boxes behind it. In the case of the Kahu upgrade they used the F-16’s APG-66 radar but to fit the outer mould line of the Skyhawk they reduced the size of the antenna. In the case of the FA-2 upgrade of the Sea Harrier being that the OEM was on hand and the RN had a lot more funds and resources to play with than the RNZAF they decided to change the outer mould line of the aircraft with a bulbous radome to accommodate the increased size of the ideal antenna for Blue Vixen over the previous Blue Fox. While this enabled improved performance it increased risk by potentially disturbing the aircraft’s aerodynamics and the air flow to the intakes. This was a risk the RNZAF was unwilling to take so accepted a decreased antenna size to not change the Skyhawk’s aerodynamics.

The Skyhawk could be fitted with the Blue Vixen radar but like the APG-66 it would entail a reduction in antenna size. This will in turn reduce the antenna gain of the radar and therefore sensitivity and range. Blue Vixen performance was closely tied to the AIM-120A missile and reducing the antenna gain could impact AMRAAM engagement range. However if the objective of putting Blue Vixen in Skyhawks was to obtain an all-important two seat mission systems trainer (RN used Hunters for this role) then you could still impart skills in systems operations but not get the most out of tactical training.
This suggests that this might be a ready application of the AN/APG-67 which was tailored to fit the F-20's nose and is now fitted to the Korean A-50.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2013, 03:39:14 AM by elmayerle »

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2013, 03:15:28 AM »
What would a suitable nose profile then be?   
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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2013, 03:26:15 AM »
I would tend for something akin to the radome on the A-4K KAHU's:




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