Author Topic: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration  (Read 138455 times)

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #125 on: August 27, 2013, 08:01:49 PM »
WHOA!  :-*

Never seen that before: what's the story?

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Offline Cliffy B

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #126 on: August 27, 2013, 08:13:27 PM »
AND the vertical tail too???!!!  :o

DETAILS!!!!!!  >:( >:( >:(
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Offline Volkodav

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #127 on: August 27, 2013, 08:52:08 PM »
Would that fit in the hanger of Indefatigable or Implacable?

Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #128 on: August 27, 2013, 10:34:04 PM »
Next question is: Did the folding wing reduce the number of hard-points/wing-loading? ???

:)

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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #129 on: August 28, 2013, 12:20:49 AM »
Guys, you are going to hate me for this but in my defence I did use the  ;) icon...

The story is that while no folded wing A-4's were produced by Douglas, three stricken and gutted A-4's were modified for public relations purposes, one each at NAS Lemoore, NAS Jacksonville, and NART Atlanta. All three had folding wings and vertical fins for overhead and side clearance during ground transportation by flatbed trailer.




However, in the whiffverse who is to say the RN didn't do something similar on operational birds?
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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #130 on: August 28, 2013, 12:28:43 AM »
if they did add folding wings, I suspect they'd be manually folding rather than mechanically driven; it makes for a lighter airframe and far less complicated systems.  Both of these are valid concerns when you're striving for the lightest possible airframe.

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #131 on: August 28, 2013, 12:40:33 AM »
Okay, so they might not be real folding-wing Skyhawks, but nevertheless, they illustrate the point beautifully. The fold line seems to be narrower than the tailplane span, so I'd guess the width reduction should be figured at about one third, but even so, on a carrier with just 12 non-folding aircraft, that gets you up to 16: a serious increase.

What made me hesitate before having the RN insist on a folding wing was the weight and complication consequences. A Skyhawk carries much of it's fuel in the wong: how much wolud you lose to the wing fold, even if it was manual, and what are the consequences of folding a fuelled wing or fuelling a folded one?

Something else I was thinking of doing was having the RN delete the guns from their aircraft (after all the Buccaneer had none): would losing the guns, and using their space for more integral tankage, compensate for the wing fold?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #132 on: August 28, 2013, 02:02:36 AM »
If the wings outboard of the fold retained integral tankage, you'd lose not only the volume of fuel taken up by the fold structure and locking mechanisms but also the extra fittings to seamlessly plumb the outboard tankage into the rest of the aircraft's fuel system.  Having said that, removing the guns and converting the ammo and gun bays to extra fuel capacity would probably come close to making that quantity up, but it would definitely drive the cost of the aircraft up for the FAA since they'd be paying for all the re-engineering in these areas and the fixed costs would be spread over a comparatively small quantity of aircraft.

It might make more sense to either leave the guns in or just have them replaced by ADEN's comparable to those used on the Scimitar (if the Israelis can get DEFA cannon in there, which are very similar to the ADEN guns, there shouldn't be a major problem).

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #133 on: August 28, 2013, 03:48:46 AM »
Some Singaporean Skyhawks were actually delivered with ADENs, so that's definately possible.

I agree about the logic of sticking with guns and non-folding wings in the interests of commonality and reduced costs, but isn't there something infuriatingly plausible about the other course?

Government : "You've got to buy off-the-shelf American gear to get the benefits of standardisation and economies of scale, and, of course, to save taxpayer's money!"

Armed Forces : "Weeeellllll okaaay, but it'll need a few cheap, simple modifications to meet our uniquely special needs...."

Government : "Okay, well we don't want to (be seen to) compromise on the quality of Defence..."

Armed Forces : "Actually maybe a few more modifications, which, of course, are generating work for British industry...."

Government : "Weeeelllll, we can't (be seen to) object to that...."

Armed Forces : "And just one more whacking great mega-expensive modification, now it's too far gone to cancel......"

Government : "Butbutbut now we've spent as much on you as if we'd developed the damned kit ourselves! Oh bugger, not again....."

Armed Forces : "Gotcha....."

 ???
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

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Offline elmayerle

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #134 on: August 28, 2013, 05:25:29 AM »
*snicker* Methinks I've seen that ploy used a few times. *whistles innocently*

Offline jschmus

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #135 on: August 28, 2013, 07:04:59 AM »
For one artist's take on the Skyhawk in Fleet Air Arm service, see here:
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #136 on: August 28, 2013, 07:14:06 AM »
For one artist's take on the Skyhawk in Fleet Air Arm service, see here:
http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/skyhawkinfaaservicejh_1.htm


Outstanding!  Please feel free to also repost in the Stories section here.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #137 on: August 28, 2013, 10:56:57 AM »
"The untimely death of Defense Minister Duncan Sandys in an air-to-air missile accident in late 1957..."  Now I wonder if we'll ever hear what really happened?  ;D

Offline Weaver

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #138 on: September 01, 2013, 07:01:01 PM »
Okay I think we're good for 30mm ADENs on the FAA's Skyhawks: some Singaporean ones were delivered with ADENs and they're nearly indistinguishable from the Colts from the outside: much neater than the Israeli DEFA refit!

Question: what's the deal with 300 gallon "bobtail" drop tanks? Basically, Skyhawks seem to use regular drop tanks with two tail fins and/or a "bobtail" version with the tail cone and fins removed. Why, and what are the issues/variant differences etc...?
"I have described nothing but what I saw myself, or learned from others" - Thucydides

"I've jazzed mine up a bit" - Spike Milligan

"I'm a general specialist," - Harry Purvis in Tales from the White Hart by Arthur C. Clarke

Twitter: @hws5mp
Minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline ysi_maniac

  • I will die understanding not this world
Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #139 on: September 22, 2013, 05:33:40 AM »
Mixing A-4 and Albatros.
Which wing do you prefer?


Offline Damian

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #140 on: September 27, 2013, 03:42:47 AM »
Okay I think we're good for 30mm ADENs on the FAA's Skyhawks: some Singaporean ones were delivered with ADENs and they're nearly indistinguishable from the Colts from the outside: much neater than the Israeli DEFA refit!

Question: what's the deal with 300 gallon "bobtail" drop tanks? Basically, Skyhawks seem to use regular drop tanks with two tail fins and/or a "bobtail" version with the tail cone and fins removed. Why, and what are the issues/variant differences etc...?

The shorter tank went on the center line while the finned versions went on the wing stations as they are longer.
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Offline Nexus1171

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #141 on: September 27, 2013, 08:18:02 AM »
I was thinking about the A4D-6: It was the competitor to the A-7 Corsair

The requirements did specify the plane had to be based on an existent design, but neither Vought nor Douglas really followed it to the letter and basically paid lip-service to the requirement.  The aircraft did superficially look like the designs they were based on, but were in reality, very different planes.

The A-7 certainly turned out to be a fine aircraft, with a heavy-payload and the ability to get the living daylights beaten out of it and still return home; the A4D-6 looked to have a number of advantages in that (provided it was anything like the other A-4's) it had the potential to be more maneuverable, reducing the odds of it getting hit, increasing it's odds to hit its target with it's, albeit inferior, payload.

That being said, I'm wondering if Douglas could have managed to done any of the following
  • Stuff more hardpoints under the plane and/or strengthen the existent hardpoints
  • Strengthen the plane for damage resistance and/or carry the extra payload by either modifying the existing structure
  • Strengthen the plane to take more damage and/or carry extra-payload re-designing various load bearing components of the plane (spars, wings, parts of the center fuselage): After all, both Vought and Douglas paid lip-service to the requirement that it be based on an extant plane...
So as to effectively produce an A4D-6 with an A-7's payload :icon ninja:

The only remaining issue would be maneuverability (both sustained and instantaneous) for the baseline A4D-6:  The aircraft would have been heavier than the earlier A-4's which would mean more inertia (most importantly pitch; roll would probably still be excellent), though the aircraft was significantly different than the earlier A4D's (Most likely, this would mean redesigned and, hopefully, more effective control surfaces).  Though the wing was redesigned, I'm not sure how much bigger or more efficient it was, so it's wing-loading might very well have been heavier; the TF30 was more powerful, but I'm not sure how it factored against the wing (turbofans also generally lose more thrust at altitude than do turbojets of the same sea level thrust) which might raise implications for sustained turning performance.

For the A4D-6 with an A-7 payload: Even if the baseline had no significant problems (extra thrust offset the extra weight at all altitudes, wing either was slightly larger or more effective, or offset by the extra thrust; more effective control surfaces dealt with inertia issues), a problem would almost certainly appear in this case.  The solutions could include any of the following
  • Redesign the slats with a hinge: Effectively it's like a slat with a leading-edge droop.  It adds more camber to the wing allowing more lift when they are extended
  • Increase the wing-area a bit more: This would have the side effect of pushing the span over the amount needed to avoid a wing-fold.  Regardless, if the ailerons aren't extended beyond the 27-something foot area, the fold line will be outside the aileron hinges and I'm not sure how much extra weight this will add for the extra square footage
While long winded, I'm curious as to people's opinions of the feasibility of this fictitious idea for it's time and place...
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 05:08:01 AM by Nexus1171 »

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #142 on: December 19, 2013, 02:14:20 AM »
Random Idea:  RAN FAA Skyhawk operating over Vietnam during the war...
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #143 on: December 21, 2013, 04:14:48 AM »
Random idea:  Italian A-4 in this sort of scheme:



Somewhat akin to what was down with this AMX a few years back:

« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 04:16:29 AM by GTX_Admin »
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #144 on: December 21, 2013, 11:11:47 AM »
Perhaps most easily done with these?  http://www.mikegrantdecals.com/SmokeRings.html

Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #145 on: December 22, 2013, 02:59:06 AM »
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

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Offline ChernayaAkula

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #146 on: December 22, 2013, 07:36:13 AM »
^ I've seen a build on a German forum where they worked really nicely, but, personally, I'd be far too afraid of silvering with that much clear film on the model's surface. Which is why I wonder whether these smoke rings would be possible to realise as dry, "rub-on" transfers? The sort Archer or HobbyDecal do.
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Offline GTX_Admin

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #147 on: December 22, 2013, 09:01:27 AM »
Maybe a good painting mask/template is required.  One could probably do it nicely.
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Offline Rickshaw

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #148 on: December 22, 2013, 10:14:36 AM »
Micro-Sol, Micro-Set and Future followed with a matt varnish would make it work, I think.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Douglas A-4 Skyhawk Ideas and Inspiration
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2013, 11:05:28 AM »
US Army version based on the A2D-2N so it has a terrain following radar.   Rather than dual main landing gear, switch to a wider tire and avoid the bulky fairings.    Possibly delete refueling capability.
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